Re: If georgists can't attach to this movement...

[anthony persaud]

as I have been saying... the Georgist community, I hate to say it, has to get out of it's shell and the old way of thinking about what is required to transform society - the world is moving along, if we don't move with it, we get left behind - plain and simple ... 

On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Brett Barndt <barnd...@gmail.com> wrote:

And, get the message out there in many different communities...

I don't know when it will happen. It requires relationship building and learning to speak other people's languages. Everybody should spread out...

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/9/22/voices_from_the_peoples_climate_march

--

Anthony Persaud

I.T. Support Specialist,

Henry George School Of Social Sciences

Social Economic Justice Enthusiast

[Jeffery J. Smith]

Hear, hear!

On Sep 23, 2014, at 12:13 PM, anthony persaud wrote:

as I have been saying... the Georgist community, I hate to say it, has to get out of it's shell and the old way of thinking about what is required to transform society - the world is moving along, if we don't move with it, we get left behind - plain and simple ... 

And, get the message out there in many different communities...

I don't know when it will happen. It requires relationship building and learning to speak other people's languages. Everybody should spread out...

SMITH, Jeffery J.

Outreach/Website, CommonGroundOrWa.org

President, Forum on Geonomics

Editor, www.progress.org

Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.

[Scott Baker]

Well, if it'll help any, I'll be on awakeradio tonight at 6:00-7:00pm, talking about the 4 biggies: Georgism, Sovereign Money, Public Banking and CAFRs.  You can use this link to post questions:

Awake Radio

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Scott Baker - President: Common Ground - NYC; NY State Coordinator, Public Banking Institute; Opednews Blogger/Senior Editor; Huffington Post Blogger; Author

Video Appearances & Slideshows here:
http://newthinking.blogspot.com/

[Scott Baker]

Yes, a variation on that is "I paid for it!  It's mine and I don't want to pay any f^&*ing taxes on it!"

This is why I try to follow Fred Harrison's advice - though I slip sometimes - to call what we're advocating, the public collection of Land Rent on the commons, especially on location.  I stress that the high price is a result of privatization of that rent, and that if the proper Land Rent was collected, the price would decline (this is not done anywhere yet, as far as I know, but there are various equivalent examples to demonstrate this empirically and theoretically.  I used the example of the $95m penthouse at One57 in Manhattan, where the property tax is only $1,500/month due to a 94% tax abatement.  Properly taxed, the price would be much lower and the monthly property tax much higher, which would be better for both the city and the buyer, though maybe not on resale if the land rent collected kept up with increasing value).

 

Scott Baker - President: Common Ground - NYC; NY State Coordinator, Public Banking Institute; Opednews Blogger/Senior Editor; Huffington Post Blogger; Author

On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 7:21 PM, Ed <edod...@comcast.net> wrote:

Anthony wrote:

 

as I have been saying... the Georgist community, I hate to say it, has to get out of it's shell and the old way of thinking about what is required to transform society - the world is moving along, if we don't move with it, we get left behind - plain and simple ... 

 

Ed Dodson here:

What I have learned over the 34 years since I began to study Henry George’s writings is that most of us have a very very difficult time accepting the idea that nature should not be treated as private property, as a commodity to be bought and sold. If the people of Ireland never grasped this idea, the challenge is much more difficult in countries where there was not that long ago either free or pretty cheap land to settle or acquire for speculation. Most of our fellow “Americans” just accept land speculation as part of the game, a game where some win and some lose. The smart, the clever win; the less smart or less clever or more altruistic lose and have little to pass on to their heirs.

 

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[anthony persaud]

who is the BIGGEST rents guzzler? hmmm ... US military?

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/05/u-s-currently-fighting-74-different-wars-that-it-publicly-admits.html

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 6:47 AM, Allen Smith <al...@infostation1.net> wrote:

Ed, the question is, do we Georgists accept, and affirm, that nature should not be treated as private property?  --  So that we can speak with a clear, united voice that is easy to understand.

[anthony persaud]

Isn't all within the same realm of the problem? where does the military and its industrial complex get all its raw materials from ? and as for the money issue, who FINANCES it all? how is it moving off the key? 

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Allen Smith <al...@infostation1.net> wrote:

maybe, but that's moving off of the key point that is central to a Georgist message

[anthony persaud]

Allen, all these things,issues, etc are all tied up in the same core problem ... private ownership and thus collection of all the rents ... 

Billy, you are right about the distinction but when we say nature belongs to everyone, another way of putting it, is directly tied into the fact that because it can never belong to anyone person in reality so  everyone should benefit from it ...how could nature belong to anyone? who made the earth? certainly people use the raw materials from the earth that was here when we arrived on the planet to make things but they are not owners of the earth - they are only owners of the things they produce ... we all know this very well :) I think ... but who gets to decide what is used and how it is used and therefore how those influence who gets the products from the use of the earth ... going back to the military industrial complex, it is not lie that the military industrial complex is there to PROTECT the raw materials for the OUTRIGHT ownership of the corporate state so they can use the raw materials ie STEAL the raw materials to make PRODUCTS which they in term now call their own PRIVATE PRODUCTS ... 

Allen, so again it is all CONNECTED my friend ... follow the yellow brick road and follow the money ...

and WOOHOO : ) good morning and good luck ...

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Allen Smith <al...@infostation1.net> wrote:

yes, within the realm of the problem

my point is, what is our central message as to where the root of the problem lies?

unfortunately, from our life experience with trying to speak that point, we have become timid about speaking it

it's much easier to talk about corporate power, the military, environmental problems, ... i.e. to talk about the problems ... because others can easily agree, yes, these are big big problems

[anthony persaud]

All, perhaps we can map out the production process to illustrate where raw materials come from and the every process and step production including the FINANCING that goes into every aspect along the way and all the KEY PLAYER along this line of production .... once we map that out, we can start to see an exactly how wealth is created and thus the progress and poverty of a society ... 

[Scott Baker]

I've been having pretty good luck suggesting that people should pay for what they use.  That seems to resonate with liberals and libertarians alike.  As Alanna suggests, I try to leave out words like "commons" except when talking to the Left.  Like it or not, there are certain "trigger words" for different kinds of people, that shut down communication.  I'll let you know when last night's Youtube podcast of my interview on Awake Radio is done too - then you can listen and tell me where my language was off.  I can think of a few places to improve myself, but that's always the way for a live unrehearsed presentation with spontaneous questions.

BTW, the host, Catherine Watters, is an interesting person, and those with long memories may remember her taking some HGS courses a few years ago.  Small world...

 

Scott Baker - President: Common Ground - NYC; NY State Coordinator, Public Banking Institute; Opednews Blogger/Senior Editor; Huffington Post Blogger; Author

[anthony persaud]

Yes, that is correct Scott -it's like using the word tax and even rent ... 

[anthony persaud]

Great point and I like this constructionist approach as it is very INCLUSIVE which is what accounted for humanity's success and which explains why we are having the problems we are having right because we have moved away from inclusivity ... George expresses these quite well in his Law of Human Progress ... 

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Billy Fitzgerald <billyfi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Well said, Brett.

 

We must be conscious as to what our language means to "them" - pre-conceived and all.

 

B

On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 10:50 AM, Brett Barndt <barnd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Another layer is people should get paid for what they create, not what other people create, or what nature creates.

But, in any case. I am glad the topic of language is coming up here.

However, there is the approach Mad Av takes to communicate or Hollywood takes or K Street. Which is craft a message based on manipulative unconscious psychology research and them pump it out there.

The authentic approach is to build relationships, become part of the community, learn to hear and feel what the people hear and feel, and then co-create with them. The first step is to create new local knowledge with them (i.e. how commons, land, money fit into what they already know and are already concerned about). This comes through hearing where people are now, building relationships with them, respect, and trust, and then speaking with them over time. Then out of that process of dialogue new local knowledge will give arise to new messages that speak to each group in its own meaningful way. 

Each group that forms also generates its own language, values, ways of seeing the world. New knowledge such as about monopoly rents or money control needs to arise from within the group like from a protein string that enters a cell through the porous membrane.  That comes from Georgists and others going out to join into other groups.

This is a constructionist approach.

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 9:55 AM, Scott Baker <ssbak...@yahoo.com> wrote:

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--

Anthony Persaud

I.T. Support Specialist,

Henry George School Of Social Sciences

Social Economic Justice Enthusiast

--

Anthony Persaud

I.T. Support Specialist,

Henry George School Of Social Sciences

Social Economic Justice Enthusiast

--

Anthony Persaud

I.T. Support Specialist,

Henry George School Of Social Sciences

Social Economic Justice Enthusiast

[Jeffery J. Smith]

On Sep 24, 2014, at 4:59 AM, anthony persaud wrote:

who is the BIGGEST rents guzzler? hmmm ... US military?

Como no.

Ed, the question is, do we Georgists accept, and affirm, that nature should not be treated as private property?

Zillions of us like both privacy and property, me among them, so taking a stand against pp is another way we alienate those we need on our side. I'd say we want to redirect our spending for nature from the 1% to us all, to pay our neighbors for the land under our homes as they would pay us, and just set aside ownership except when referring to absentee ownership or owner occupancy.

Seems to me.

SMITH, Jeffery J.

[anthony persaud]

Allen in Western and American society viz property rights YES unfortunately - the challenge is to create a new narrative as to the way we define who we are and our relationship to nature and the REWARDS of nature and who gets to use nature in an economic setting ... hmmm, sounds like there has to be a global revolution to change this system that goes way way way way back ... good luck and god bless us all ... 

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Allen Smith <al...@infostation1.net> wrote:

Are we stuck with a system in which the rent of nature is treated as private property?

I hope not.

all for improving our language

On Sep 24, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Ed wrote:

Billy Fitzgerald wrote:

 

 

There are some serious issues with the language in this exchange.

 

"that nature should not be treated as private property" is misleading.

 

Like it or not, we are stuck with a system that has private ownership of land and other natural resources. George did not propose to end this, only that the economic benefit should be taken away.

 

This is a critical distinction.

 

My colleague, Fryda Ossias, advocates the term "user fee, a payment for benefit received, in place of a land value tax.

 

 

Ed Dodson here:

I actually concur. My earlier comment (repeated above) is a misstatement. I normally am careful to say that “the rent of nature should not be treated as private property.”

 

 

.

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[anthony persaud]

here is a great song about LAND and captured what is happening on democracy now today;

Is It For Freedom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4hhEFSazKA

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Allen Smith <al...@infostation1.net> wrote:

Anthony, I don't know that the Henry George School board agrees with you on that, they'd have to speak for themselves. What I know is that George, in the central, defining chapter of the book that catapulted him to fame, wrote:

[04] We must make land common property.¹

And in "How Equal Rights to the Land May be Asserted and Secured" (P&P VII.2):

[13] I do not propose either to purchase or to confiscate private property in land. The first would be unjust; the second, needless. Let the individuals who now hold it still retain, if they want to, possession of what they are pleased to call their land. Let them continue to call it their land. Let them buy and sell, and bequeath and devise it. We may safely leave them the shell, if we take the kernel. It is not necessary to confiscate land; it is only necessary to confiscate rent.

Thus the rent of land would no longer be treated as private property if we agree with what George wrote.

[anthony persaud]

speaking of land rights and private property and such - here is an interesting article about land ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/us-navajo-settlement_n_5878812.html

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 4:40 PM, RON RUBIN <harmo...@verizon.net> wrote:

Anthony - Thanks for the song.

 

Allen - The quote below in red is perfect...it says it all.

 

Ron

----- Original Message -----

From: anthony persaud

To: Allen Smith

Cc: Ed ; Billy Fitzgerald ; Scott Baker ; Brett Barndt ; Ron Rubin ; Andy Mazzone ; Marty Rowland ; Sue Peters ; Donal Butterfield ; Kim Baxter ; Char Lemur ; Chuck Mensh ; Rita Rowan ; Common Ground NYC ; Marcial Cordon ; Marcello Ritondo ; Drame Ibrahima

Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 2:56 PM

Subject: Re: If georgists can't attach to this movement...

here is a great song about LAND and captured what is happening on democracy now today;

Is It For Freedom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4hhEFSazKA

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Allen Smith <al...@infostation1.net> wrote:

Anthony, I don't know that the Henry George School board agrees with you on that, they'd have to speak for themselves. What I know is that George, in the central, defining chapter of the book that catapulted him to fame, wrote:

[04] We must make land common property.¹

And in "How Equal Rights to the Land May be Asserted and Secured" (P&P VII.2):

 

[13] I do not propose either to purchase or to confiscate private property in land. The first would be unjust, the second, needless. Let the individuals who now hold it still retain, if they want to, possession of what they are pleased to call their land. Let them continue to call it their land. Let them buy and sell, and bequeath and devise it. We may safely leave them the shell, if we take the kernel. It is not necessary to confiscate land, it is only necessary to confiscate rent.

[anthony persaud]

Ron, this is your favorite quote :) 

[Jeffery J. Smith]

On Sep 24, 2014, at 8:18 PM, anthony persaud wrote:

speaking of land rights and private property and such - here is an interesting article about land ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/us-navajo-settlement_n_5878812.html

Then OTOH, the US allows ...

http://www.progress.org/news/land-disputes/bundys-atvs-ride-over-sacred-navaho-land-in-utah/