CBus 5500PC - Command Fusion and Wearing out Com Ports

[Les Bridges]

I had my iPad through iViewer changing all 12 relays perfectly (No Joins/feedback).

Someone told me i needed to use Cbus toolkit to setup the Relay and 5500PC properly, everything stopped working relating to the Bridge and Command Fusion, I can send commands via Putty and serial, the same command does not work via Serial System Commander or UDP System Commander, CBUS support says because I can talk via Putty its a command fusion issue, although it stopped working after using Cbus Toolkit.

Its very frustrating as support is always offline and it takes to long to get a reply when you are sat in front of your computer for what amounts to hours receiving what turns out to be bad advice it seems.

The Wiki says be patient under construction Cbus cannot help and its giving me a migraine.

I feel I have tried everything.

Any help would be great.

[Jarrod Bell]

We are very busy preparing for the biggest trade show of the year, ISE Amsterdam. The international aspect of it means there is lots to organise.
So we are not available to our usual award winning support standards. But in a week or so, that will be back to normal (after the catchup on emails is complete).

You can always ask for help in here, or via email (I got your exact copy of this support request via our email system too, so I will ignore that one now).

Now, to get help, you need to provide specific details on what your configuration is, so we can find why one method works but another doesn't.
Please send us your GUI file if you like (just attach it to your message here), and please provide examples of the commands that ARE working in putty.

Please also detail your connection details, such as how your serial ports are connected.

The CBus guiDesigner plugin is only for Ethernet control. If you are doing RS232 control, it is a whole different ball game. At least thats what I am led to believe (I'm far from a C-Bus expert).

Regards,

Jarrod Bell
CommandFusion
www.commandfusion.com

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CommandFusion Software" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to commandfusio...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[Les Bridges]

I was planning on being in Amsterdam myself, I was at Ceida Denver late last year.

A simple command
\0538007900r in putty turns on Group 00
\0538090100r in putty turns off Group 00

These same commands in System commander worked 3 days ago vid UDP and typing the command in, no iPad, no GUI designer a simple command.

There is no way of easily resetting the Bridge or the Cbus devices so I cannot even know when I have a default device.

I spent $20,000 visiting iRule at Cedia as well as weeks fighting with their cloud based system that let me down at every small change.

They were to busy too.

[Jarrod Bell]

You can easily reset the LAN Bridge if need be, instructions are in our wiki:
http://www.commandfusion.com/wiki2/hardware/device-resetting

Still need more detailed information from you.
Please attach the GUI file so I can at least know the command format you are sending and where its connecting to exactly.

When you use Putty, what is putty connecting to? Please explain your connectivity clearly.

Regards,

Jarrod Bell
CommandFusion
www.commandfusion.com

[Barry Gordon]

I am sure Jarrod will be able to resolve the issue. In the short term can you just back out the C-Bustoolkit and revert to the previous config. I am pretty good at figuring things out and very fluent in all sorts of communications protocols but have never worked with C-Bus so I can only assist you in a general manner.

Sent from my iPad

[Les Bridges]

1.Windows Vista _ Putty _Com2_USB-RS232_cbus

One command ~\0538007900r

Returns r turns relay one on.

2. Windows Vista _System Commander_connect UDP 10207 send the command \0538007900

Worked 3 days ago now nothing the Cbus traffic light flashes as does the Bridge, the Cbus is set up as the correct groups.

3.Windows Vista _System Commander_Com2_USB-RS232_cbus

\0538007900r Same command does not work

Where does it tell you how the bridge should be configured for cbus use as I can find heaps of different ways but nothing definitive everything points to UDP 10207 how does that relate to the bridged ports, if the Cbus light acknowledges a command do I assume the Bridge is setup correctly?

I used to get a response from the Cbus now nothing.

I don't care about iViewer or The GUI just one command to work would as Arnie would say " make my day"

Isn't there someone who knows about both products that I can pay to help me, it's all beginning to be a waste of time.

[Florent Pillet]

Beware that by sending the ~ character over serial, you have reset your serial interface to BASIC (point-to-point) mode, as indicated page 16 of the Clipsal Serial Interface User Guide. Whether this is what you wanted or not is up to you, but if you change the mode in which the serial port operates you'll want to make sure to send the data in a format it expects.

Florent

On 31 Jan 2014, at 16:09, Les Bridges <l...@nwelectronics.com.au> wrote:

> 1.Windows Vista _ Putty _Com2_USB-RS232_cbus
>
> One command ~\0538007900r
>
> Returns r turns relay one on.

--
Florent Pillet - Software Engineering Lead
www.commandfusion.com

[Jarrod Bell]

Another thing you should consider is that by default there is a bridge between TCP port 10208 and the on-board COM port.
So anything you send to TCP port 10208 does not need to be framed in the CFLink protocol format, just send the bytes you want to show up on the serial port.
Of course, this is only true if you leave the slots configured as default.

You can setup bridges however you like - you could use UDP to bridge direct to the COM port, or you could just use the default UDP 10207 port and send the full CFLink packet notation.

Regards,

Jarrod Bell
CommandFusion
www.commandfusion.com

[Barry Gordon]

Jarrod, 

One of these days I am going to have to look at your hardware. What you describe intrigues me. My goal is to get my home to be all TCP/UDP. That is probably impossible in my lifetime, mainly due to IR. RS232 is slowly being phased out but will probably be around as long as IR.

For media conversions I generally use the iTach devices, but I have a special pool controller that is TCP/UDP to RS-485 that the pool system uses with internal conversion logic. All my lighting is Insteon based which is an RF system very similar to Z-Wave. For that I use a ISY-994 to handle the media change. Insteon also provides relays, thermostats controlled receptacles, and . . . I went with Insteon instead of Z-Wave due to the number of end devices they supplied. The ISY-994 now h angles Z-Wave. I am in discussion with a thermostat company to develop a TCP/UDP thermostat that does NOT deal with some manufacturers cloud.

Although I consider your teams support world class that is not the case with many other vendors. In self defense I have tried to do as much of my work myself. The only other firm that had had an equivalent support paradigm was the Slim team who developed slimserver aka Squeezeserver, aka LMS. LMS support is not in that class.

Sent from my iPad

[Les Bridges]

I was told today from clipsal that I had to send the ~ command to reset it before sending a command.

Everyone tells you something different and there seems to be nothing consistent from both sides,

Why would I want to set a LAN Bridge up to communicate in a way that I have no idea in the first place how it works differently to the default which I don't know what the default is supposed to be.

Surely there would be something that says.

"By default" Command Fusion Bridge, if in

System commander connect via UDP port 10207 , Device 2, command "whatever the command is" , String \x5380079004Ag\x0D

Is a valid command to turn on Group 3 of your relay lighting device, providing your Network burdens and groups are setup correctly.

This would make me focus on the Cbus device.

How can I have a iViewer layout with 12 buttons that worked perfectly ( With simulated feedback) to nothing because someone advised on the forum that I needed to setup the Cbus using Cbus Toolkit?

Now I can send working commands to the Cbus via putty but nothing else, you mention if I want to send the ~ command that's fine! it's not fine because I don't know what mode the CBus is supposed to be in to receive the above example because no one will tell me!

Surely there would be something of a firm example to stop the guessing so my time can be spent enjoying the learning process of GUI designer?

Or is Cbus a waste of time and I should be looking at another product that works better with some concrete support?

[Florent Pillet]

You didn't read what I wrote, and the string below is not correct.

Read my message again.

Florent

[Jarrod Bell]

\x5380079004Ag\x0D

This is invalid, incorrect.

Please read again Florent's reply to you which describes the command format in a simplified manner.

Try removing the x at the start (just the one after the first slash). You only enter \x when you want to send a hex byte, such as the \x0D at the end of the command to send a carriage return byte.
Here is a bit of info from our wiki on entering hex bytes:
http://www.commandfusion.com/wiki2/software/gui-designer/hex-data

Here is the wiki entry that includes information about the default configuration of the LAN Bridge:
http://www.commandfusion.com/wiki2/hardware/lan-bridge#ports
It explains default TCP, UDP and RS232 bridging configuration.

Regards,

Jarrod Bell
CommandFusion
www.commandfusion.com

[xAPPO]

Les.

      I can't contribute on the bridge aspects but the C-Bus 5500PC as a serial interface can operate in several modes and the current mode is retained in non volatile memory in the interface.   As you switch between direct 'raw' access and C-Bus Toolkit (and say C-Bus Diagnostics) the mode in which the interface operates is changed to suit the attaching software. C-Gate always switches the interface to a  suitable mode. This effects not only the way you need to talk to the interface but also the format and type of the messages it returns.   A good example is  whether you are using checksums or not.   It is very possible such a change was what caused a working interface to appear non working after running C-Bus Toolkit.  There are some ~ and ~~~ sequences to get control back but you will do need to set the appropriate operating mode you require.

    All this is really well documented in the 5500PC Serial Interface / C-Bus lighting application protocol document that is freely downloadable from the C-Bus website.  It's going to be really important that the information there is well understood if you're going to be implementing your own C-Bus interface via CF.  Another aspect that will easily trip you up is that the buffer space within the 5500PC interface is really tiny and you will need to manage this using flow control / buffers or commands won't work.  This is because the interface can't transfer commands onto C-Bus as fast as you can send them to the bridge, and the bridge send them to the interface via RS232. BTW the C-Bus Ethernet interface has this same nuance too.

    You mentioned earlier wanting to retrieve status information back from C-Bus and getting these group changes (either on/off or level changes) is quite complex as it involves decoding MMI responses representing blocks of C-Bus groups.  There is a CF C-Bus module posted on GitHub,   I can't vouch for how well it works currently (it had a lot of problems when it was originally posted) but if it has been updated (??)  then that would be very much my recommendation as implementing the C-Bus protocol yourself is not going to be straight forward for you at all.    Carefully reading the responses and documentation  will really help you progress.

   K

[Les Bridges]

Thanks xAPPO

I don't know which mode is required to send commands from system commander via UDP Port 10207. Master Rest for the CBus devices it worked out of the box after learning the groups via the relay buttons?

Im in Broome a novice and we have no way of training officially and everyone has to start somewhere and I am really trying to learn.

Out of the box Command Fusion LAN Bridge, Programmed via learn commands L5512RVF.

I managed to create a 12 button layout in GUI Designer that had Simulated Feedback that controlled all 12 relays perfectly On and Off.

Someone on a Thread said I needed to configure the CBus gear via Cbus Toolkit and since then I have been unable to use the iPad side of things.

I can send commands via putty and the serial port and it controls the relay fine.

I used to be able to send similar commands from System Commander via UDP Port 10207, this no longer works.

It seems something in the Cbus tool kit changes its communication, could it be a Device ID or the mode it is operating in.

Is their a master reset for the L5512RVF and the 5500PC?

Burdens Hardware and both Clocks are set as per Clipsal's instructions.

Clipsal mentioned to send a ~ character to clear the PC5500 someone else told me that changes the 5500PC's Mode.

Thank any one in advance for the help and encouragement.

[Mr Mark]

Hello Les.

Just replied to your post on the C-Bus forum before coming here.

In over 10 years of working with C-Bus, I've never used the "~" symbol in a command other than setting the mode of the PCI (C-Bus PC Interface), and is usually "~~~" or "|||".

As you have posted:

\0538007901 will turn on C-Bus group address 01;

\0538000101 will turn off C-Bus group address 01.

Adding a suffix to your command (g through to z) will return that value back if the command is accepted.

When I've finished moving house, I'll dig up commands to specifically set the mode of the C-Bus interface. Better still, download the Clipsal Diagnostic Utility from the Clipsal webiste here: http://www2.clipsal.com/cis/technical/downloads/commissioning_tools#Diagnosticutility and I'll post a screenshot of what to set.

## Just re-read some of the earlier posts and it is possible to set up your C-Bus PCI in such a way as it doesn't require checksums. Some may disagree with going this way though... I've supplied C-Bus strings (without checksums) to a number of Crestron programmers without any problems.

Hope this helps,

Mark

[Phil Harris]

Hi Les,

As per our previous conversations you cannot just plug a C-Bus setup into a CF setup and have one control the other - C-Bus uses "groups" to control channels on the system and there is no such concept as "Channel 1 on relay pack 2" - only "Groups" so the first thing to do is to get a working C-Bus setup ... that's why I told you that you needed to use the C-Bus Toolkit to get the kit programmed and working in teh first place. Only once you have a working C-Bus setup can you hope to control it with anything.

As for getting shot of the C-Bs and using something that is supported then we used C-Bus to control the "new" Wembley Stadium in the UK with 4,500 points of control running from a fully fledged SCADA system so it's not a tin-pot system. I know you had a CF config running with "simulated feedback" but that doesn't mean it was correct and I think you might be trying to skip steps in making sure it's working right in your enthusiasm to get your CF config done.

You need to make sure that control groups are correctly assigned to the relay channels - then make sure that you can trigger those channels correctly ... have you done that? This is what we were trying to do last week when we couldn't get Toolkit to run correctly on your PC. Once you have the groups set up *THEN* you can use the diagnostic tool to trigger channels from your PC.

The C-Bus protocol does have a public documentation that is downloadable but I strongly suspect that this is where you are currently going awry ... where are you getting your commands from?

Phil

[Mr Mark]

Hello Les.

I have to agree with Phil - set the C-Bus hardware up first with C-Bus Toolkit software. Learn mode was designed for small simple jobs and in my opinion was rarely successful.

Having done many projects over the last ten years (C-Bus design and programming now being the core of my business), I've been very happy with the product. Projects range from simple home theatre setups, multi-million dollar high end residential to multi-network (biggest being 16 network, so far) commercial sites. Most have remote access and I've been introducing Command Fusion iPad solutions to quite a few of our long term clients. I may be a little biased with how easy integration with C-Bus is, but I have written code previously to interface C-Bus with Allen & Heath processors (command and feedback), HPM's now defunct iControl (terrible system for two way control!) as well as low level interfaces with quite a few security systems. I can help with command strings to send through to C-Bus and will send through PCI settings when I unpack.

Another thought: I'm not sure if C-Bus clock and software burden is set when you use learn mode. Are both the "Unit" and "C-Bus" lights lit on the left hand end of your relays? There are so many things you need to check that simply cannot be done with out using Toolkit software. 

Mark

[Les Bridges]

Thank you everyone for you help I have had a good read on my 2000 k trip and have found the following and I hope its correct and I hope it can help others 

Relay Unit L5512RVF On Off Relay Group Commands with the checksums. A great HEX Calculator http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/info/crc-calculation.html , use 256 minus the one byte checksum once you have Calculated the CRC, convert this back to Hex, recalculate this in the calculator and the 1 Byte CheckSum should be 0.

Hex you wish to create a Check Sum for Example : 0538000109

($05+$38+$00+$01+$09 = 71) (256-71=185) (185 Hex = b9) ($05+$38+$00+$01+$09+$b9=0)

Group 1

\05380079004A\x0d

\0538000100c2\x0d

Group 2

\053800790149\x0d

\0538000101c1\x0d

Group 3

\053800790248\x0d

\0538000102c0\x0d

Group 4

\053800790347\x0d

\0538000103bf\x0d

Group 5

\053800790446\x0d

\0538000104be\x0d

Group 6

\053800790545\x0d

\0538000105bd\x0d

Group 7

\053800790644\x0d

\0538000106bc\x0d

Group 8

\053800790743\x0d

\0538000107bb\x0d

Group 9

\053800790842\x0d

\0538000108ba\x0d

Group 10

\053800790941\x0d

\0538000109b9\x0d

Group 11

\053800790A40\x0d

\053800010Ab8\x0d

Group 12

\053800790b3f\x0d

\053800010bb7\x0d

These have all been tested and work fine, as I get further into this if its acceptable on this forum I will share a working GUI which will control a 12 Relay and an 8 dimmer unit.

Thanks again everyone, Mark It would be great if you can shed some light on the feed back and joins side of things, I am happy to work hard I just need a few pointers in the right direction.

Regards

Les

[Roti]

Hi. Just food for thought. I've been using CommandFusion to Control C-Bus with multiple devices at home for a few years and it's been solid (with full feedback, etc), but I use it somewhat differently to you.

1) Most of the standard C-Bus 5500x interfaces are actually serial interfaces, the TCI/IP and USB versions just have a serial-Ethernet or serial-USB bridges added. They can only actually support a (very) limited number of simultaneous connections.

2) The C-BusTtoolkit installs the C-Gate service to function. C-Gate runs as a separate service (and can be installed separately). C-Gate connects to the 5500 bridge (of whichever type), and the C-Bus Toolkit then connects to the C-Bus network via the C-Gate service .

3) Although in the past the C-Bus toolkit would manually launch the C-Gate service when needed, later versions of the Toolkit install C-Gate as a "background" service by default. Hence, if C-Gate is till running on the PC where you installed Toolkit (even if you have closed the Toolkit interface itself), it may still be occupying the connection on the 5500 interface, hence you inability to connect with CommandFusion client after using the toolkit.

4) I actually leave C-Gate running as a service (on a virtual machine) and do all communications with Command Fusion (and other products) primarily through C-Gate. C-Gate was designed to act as an interface supporting multiple connections simultaneously, has a much simpler command/feedback syntax, and also allows for a separate connection on the feedback port that provides real time status update information to all devices connected. This also significantly reduces chatter on the C-Bus network itself.

P.S. I'm just a hobbyist. I don't work in this industry, so any of the above may be incomplete or incorrect.

[Mr Mark]

Hello Les.

Just so we are all on the same page. 

Sending a command to turn on group address 01 = \0538007901yy

\ = sending a command

05 = a SAL or point to multipoint command

38 = lighting application, in hex (56 in decimal)

00 = other stuff...

79 = on command (01 for off)

01 = group address 

yy = checksum (shown here as a variable)

Receiving a command for group address 01 on = 05xx38007901yy

05 = a SAL or point to multipoint command

xx = the unit address of the device that sent the command (shown here as a variable)

38 = lighting application, in hex (56 in decimal)

00 = other stuff...

79 = on command (01 for off)

01 = group address 

yy = checksum (shown here as a variable)

Like Roti, I quickly switched to the c-gate option, for a number of reasons. C-Gate supports multiple clients (serial interfacing through a PCI [RS-232 or USB], CNI will only support one connection) and the commands are easier to interpret. Using C-Gate, you can poll the network at start up to get your group address states/levels, where as the path you are heading down requires deciphering of MMI's (Multipoint to multipoint interrogation).

To send the command group address 01 on = "on 254/56/1" (without the quotes)

on = on (or off or ramp etc)

254 = local network. A single network is by default 254, by convention each additional network number is lower eg: 253

56 = lighting application in decimal

1 = group address

The response for this will be "on 254/56/01 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" (without the quotes)

on = on (or off or ramp etc)

254 = local network. A single network is by default 254, by convention each additional network number is lower eg: 253

56 = lighting application in decimal

1 = group address

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx = bunch of other info, including the unit address of the device sending the command and object ID, etc

On smaller projects where we provide iPad control, we have c-gate running on a raspberry pi. At home, my RPi connects to C-Bus via a C-Bus SIM (small PCB, about the size of a matchbox), but a CNI (C-Bus network interface) works just as good.

[Mr Mark]

Hello Les. Sorry its taken a while to get back to you - moved house, laptop died, started using (bloody) windows 8.

Not sure if you still need this info, but these are the settings I use to communicate to C-Bus via a SIM (essentially a RS-232 / interface without the enclosure) and using the C-Bus 'Diagnostic Utility', 

As I mentioned before, I run C-Gate on a Raspberry Pi to let C-Bus do the heavy lifting. Although you are talking on a protocol level, the connection and settings are the same.

Hope this helps,

Mark