In Defense of Superhero comics by............

[HiHo]

So I found this article which i never saw after surfing CBR for 3
years. But then again, I don't look at CBR every week, so I'm bound to
miss it.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17623

I am very impressed with Callahan's arguement. He goes beyond just
saying "I don't think Superhero comics is trash". He explains things.

He makes all this kinds of arguements that will not change the
America's cultural view of superhero comics, but it points out things
that I am not aware of.

Very impressive.

[JF]

Good one -- thanks for spotting it! Very well written.

JF

[Sonny Liew]

interesting article indeed :) curious to know what everyone thinks of
the arguments themselves though...

for my part i'm not sure callahan really succeeds in his defense - too
much time is given to phantom menaces and too many issues avoided or
glossed over...

- can superhero comics be worthwhile art? Here callahan discusses the
subjective/cultural nature of definitions of literature vs genre
fiction... which does make sense; there's nothing that stops anyone
from making great art within the genre of superheroes in various mediums
(usually comics, sometimes movies)...

but the problem with the genre is that it tends to have certain
restrictions and characteristics, mostly due to its main intended target
audience (teenage boys, and the adults they grow into), a shortlist
might be:

- overemphasis on 'realism' (making superheroes believable, even if the
stories are romantic as callahan argues), which means less formal
experimentation with the comics langauge
- depiction of women: skin tight clothing, super-supermodel anatomy etc
- insularity

where callahan does deal with these issues, they don't q seem adequate:

- he says superhero comics have grown up to target older readers, but
i'm not sure he provides enough data to back this up. the long spiel
about romanticism seems very tangential.

- he says that superhero comic's insular nature actually make it " part
of an incredibly complicated experiment in grand-scale storytelling, the
likes of which have never been seen in the history of narrative fiction.
"... which seems a bit dodgy... isn't that like an inbred royal saying
all his diseases and malfunctions represent something special, unlike
other normal families? :p

>
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17623
>
>
>

[HiHo]

What I wish to point out is that........For one thing, I am not really
interested in criticizing people. I am more interested in criticzing
art. However, having realized that personality and personal experience
play a huge role in artistic preference[1,2], I thought I'd set out to
understand what society is like.

The post "favourite comics?", was not only about looking for people
who share similar interest, but to try to understand what the general
preference is like.

Playing the devil's advocate.Taking an extreme point of view. It
worked. I did not expect it to work, but it does work. I got the
inspiration that it might work from The Dark Knight. That is if there
is a deviant individual in society, people will react, whether you are
doing what is good for them, or trying to burn them all.The big idea
for me about that movie is not about the "realism" or the about people
being good or bad in their last moments of living. It is about how
society will react to a deviant. And even if a deviant does good for a
society, there will still be negative reactions. So now we all
understand why Batman has so much difficulties with Gotham society.
Not only is he breaking the law, but that people fear and hate what
they do not know. And i just had to test this idea to see if it was
true.

That personality has anything to do with preference, would simply mean
that I can stereotype people to a limited extent. So for example, many
comic readers, those who make a habit of it, probably listens to heavy
metal and rock. They may listen to pop or classics, but it is very
likely that heavy metal and rock will be part of their music diet.

Why I constantly talk about the need for going beyond small talk is
because small talk is small, and will never last. How many times can
one tell his friend he has not visited a comic store for a long time.
And similarly, what is the point of having small talk over comics that
do nothing but cater to fantasies. It will come to a point where
anyone who does small talk will just tire out. Because all that person
can do is say the same kinds of thing over and over again. This story
is good, the art is bad. It is meaningless.

To go deep in understanding comics is to explore things that are
otherwise not obvious. And upon discovery, brings what Richard
Feynmann calls,"the joy of finding things out". For me, reading a
comic that stands out is like making a new discovery, or learning
something new. And what is even more amazing, the right kind of comics
can teach a lesson or two about life. There will always be meaning.
Meaning that can be applied to life, or how one views life.

Read more alternative comics. I assume most people who read these
posts stick mostly to mainstream stuff. If it is your personality to
stick to mainstream then, so be it. If you go beyond mainstream stuff,
drop me an e-mail.

References

[1] Furnham A, Walker J. The influence of personality traits, previous
experience of art, and demographic variables on artistic preference.
Personality and Individual Differences. 31: 997 - 1017.

[2] Chamorro-Premuzic T, Furnham A, Reimers S. The Artistic
Personality. The Psychologist. 20(2): 84 - 87

[sonny]

Heh hiho sounds like you're trying save singapore from the crime of reading only mainstream superhero comics...Let's call it the
Dark Kramers Ergot Returns! :p
http://sonnyliew.com

[HiHo]

Well Sonny, that is not what I have in mind. Mainstream is mainstream.
It is dominant.

I believe Malinky Robot is considered mainstream in France, where it
is alternative in America. Which is quite interesting, considering
that Hollywood is popular with the French. But with the French, they
are aware of all kinds of things when it comes to art.

Mainstream is suppose to be dominant. I don't believe it can be
changed easily. But nevertheless, I did want to know how dominant it
is, and how resistant a society can be to new ideas. And I was waiting
for people to prove me wrong. I was hoping someone would stand up and
say, "no, there are a lot of Singaporeans who know how to read comics.
There are a lot of Singaporeans who love Mr Kiasu and understand its
value to our society" But the whole time I got was.......you know what
I got.

Even if it is wrong that most Singaporeans do not support local comics
and go Japanese or American, and to a smaller extent, Hong Kong.I
alone cannot change things. It is really up to the people in the
industry to do it. Chuang Yi goes,"support our Singaporean manga, AND
our Japanese manga". Chances are Chuang Yi earns more from selling
Japanese manga, so they will not support Singapore manga over the
Japanese. They will just say, buy both (and make us richer).

It is not really a crime to read mainstream. But drastic action has to
be taken to change reading habits or any other habit. It has to be
drastic. You are fighting against personalities. If anyone feels that
Singaporeans are not supporting local comics enough, you just have to
enforce ideas. Stronger promotion. Do it the way DC or Marvel does.

Americans are so good at marketing. Since when did DC stop telling the
world to buy Watchmen or Sandman? They never did and never will do. Is
this not in a way enforcing ideas? Since when did we stop telling
Singaporeans to stop supporting Mr Kiasu?

I am done testing the waters and I have no idea where to go from
here.

[HiHo]

Oh, and I am still looking for comic fans who read a wide variety of
comics, and when I say wide, I mean WIDE. Apparently, they may not
exist.

I remember when I first discovered Malinky Robot. The first two
stories that I read had that "sketchy" look. Like the construction
lines were still there or something (I know nothing about the
technicalities of drawing). Why i could accept the style back then was
because I had read a comic before called Herobear and the Kid.
Normally, only kids will pick up this comic.

Herobear and the Kid, by Mike Kunkel, is very well written as a
children comic. In fact, it is better than many of the Marvel and DC
comics I had read. The art itself was interesting. Kunkel did not
erase the construction lines for artistic reasons. In a way, Kunkel's
comic prepared me for Malinky Robot although both comics were
completely different in every way. Later on when I found out that
Sonny was a notable figure, I realized that reading a wide variety of
comics can permit one to learn how to see the value in other comics.
Either this, or have someone to guide. There was no one to guide me,
so......my taste for comics developed in a non-"Singaporean" way.

This is why I value reading a wide range of comics, not just American,
Singaporean, French, Japanese, Belgium, Hong Kong etc. That which you
can learn seeing so many things is so valuable.

[HiHo]

Guess what. I have been an idiot. An idiot.

There is a blog is there not?

May be, just may be I can just e-mail articles to JF, and then perhaps
he could post them on the blog? That would be more suitable would it
not?. Then I can keep away from all the discussion, and NOT have to
constantly end up criticising readers. I do not enjoy it at all
seriously. I really do not enjoy it. Even if it is easy for me to
argue, it is not fun. It does not get anywhere, it does not further
any ideas, nor improve anything.

I just want to stick to criticizing comics. Period. Enough with the
reader criticism. I cannot stand it anymore.

[Pang Peow Yeong]

Okay, I stand up and say I read a wide range of comics. I also listen to a wide range of music ranging from pop to rock to metal to jazz to dance. As far as I know, there is no personality theory that allows one to stereotype people (that's not the intention!) nor conclude that comic book readers like rock and heavy metal. ??!!

--
"The truth is that you're a quiet sensitive type but, if I'm prepared to take a chance, I might just get to know the inner you: witty, adventurous, passionate, loving, loyal...A little bit crazy, a little bit bad. But hey - don't us girls just love that?" ~ Diane "Trainspotting"

[JF]

Hey HiHo,

I have sent you an invitation to be a contributor on the Singapore
Comix blog, so please check your email. You are still welcome to
start discussions on this mailing list, only now you have an
additional platform to post stuff.

JF

[Joyce Sim]

and also perhaps that people who read less superhero or so-called "mainstream" hits also might not be subscribers or at least active voices on a Singapore Comics Creators listserv...

[HiHo]

Yes, Miss/Mrs/Mdm (whichever appropriate) Sim, I am aware that there
is such a possibility. Which is why it is important that people speak
up and make things clear or defend themselves.

To have an interest and to keep to oneself when there is a community
easily available is not a crime. But it is antisocial behaviour.

Your phrase "so-called "mainstream" hits" hedges things too much. The
idea of mainstream truly exists in common media, and has been so for
any nation indulging in such media. The only things that change are
the preferences and culture of the mainstream audience.

[HiHo]

To Mr JF,

Thank you very much. No I don't think I will make any further posts.
These will be my last few postings

Somehow I always end up criticizing people rather than on comics. Not
to my favour. I will stick to comic criticism.

I will go "why are fans.....?" And someone replies, "I think it is
fine......." And things always get personal once I, you, he, she is
used in arguements. Blogs can avoid any form of personalization I
think. Less possiblity of directly addressing people.

[HiHo]

Stereotyping is admittedly not a very good thing. However, it is a
prevalent in many societies including Singapore, and it is based on
epxerience and some crude form of information.

The thing was that when I was younger, I never really cared about
stereotyping. This school mate of mine in primary, secondary and
tertiary school is a science guy, but he never exhibited the nerdiness
that I was to see when i went on to higher education. He is a nerd in
some ways, but he is not to the level as seen on TV. And he is really
intelligent, more so than some nerds. So yes, the stereotypical idea
that nerds are always the most intelligent people is not true. But
nevertheless, there are nerds that are very similar to what is seen on
TV, and when I saw them, I was really surprised. In my whole life, I
really thought it was a strictly TV thing.

So stereotyping is true to a limited extent. Very limited. But it is
part of society. But what I was pointing out earlier was that I am
using a stereotyping, that is I admit i know nothing. And so it is up
to people to clarify with me the truth. At which point I simply say I
am wrong.

The truth can hurt, but I'd rather live with it. Either that or a good
lie, which is rarely the case.

[Stefan Yong]

Hey, HiHo. I would be really excited if you made a blog and continued
with the sort of posting you've been doing on this and other threads.
Reading your thoughts has so far been really enriching.

I'm a firm believer that comics should be criticised as a legitimate
artform, and not in terms of "what Batman did in this comic was
TOTALLY out of character!", but in a more intelligent, informed
manner. I can't remember which thread it was, but you said something
about being dissatisfied with comics blogs in general. It's definitely
true that many such blogs are maintained by the kinds of people who
read Newsarama on a daily basis and consist mostly of unhelpful, knee-
jerk reactions, there is a definite niche for comics critics on the
web. I'm going by the taste in comics I think you have, based on your
posts here, but you might be interested in the crtiticism found in
places like Jog - The Blog ( http://joglikescomics.blogspot.com/ ),
High-Low ( http://highlowcomics.blogspot.com/ ), and the CR review
segment on The Comics Reporter ( http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/briefings/cr_reviews_archives/
), just to name a couple.

I'm not sure how many comics blogs there are that offer a Singaporean
perspective, though. I run a blog called But Before I Kill You
( http://butbeforeikillyou.blogspot.com/ ) in which I review new
superhero comics weekly, and every now and then I do a big review for
a non-superhero comic. As you can imagine these posts end up being
rarer, not because I don't read much non-superhero stuff, but because
I limit my non-superhero comics buys to comics I'm sure are good, and
good comics often deserve longer discussions, which take time to put
together. I try to put some of myself into my writing, so I suppose
you can find some perspective (Singaporean teenager) in the blog.

Otherwise, to be relevant to this thread, it's important to remember
Sturgeon's Law - ninety percent of everything is bullshit. So while
it's true that almost every single superhero comic that the Big Two
companies churn out week after week are trash from cover to cover,
there are always gems here and there. Similarly, for every Maus and
Bottomless Belly Button and other critically acclaimed non-mainstream
work, there are loads of crap alt-comix. There are a LOT of minicomics
being made in the US, and diving into alt-comix while shunning genre
stuff isn't completely rewarding. At the end of the day it's important
to remember superheroes (where would comics be without them?) and
acknowledge that a few superhero comics are good. But small press
comics aren't always what they're cracked up to be, even if some of
them are excellent.

Seriously, though: if you ever make a comic blog, I'll definitely be a
regular reader. And I think a few others might agree.

[HiHo]

Hey Stefan,

It is very difficult for me to maintain my own blog, especially when I
do not have access to the latest comics. I would rather contribute to
the SIngapore Comix blog; provide a liitle something extra to that
blog.

I don't think it would be appropriate to have my own blog when I
cannot review the latest comics, unless Kino is kind enough to lend me
a copy of each of their latest comics, then may be I can write a
review and help them sell it. All I can do is carry out retro reviews
and analysis. It will bore people. I mean seriously, if you really
think I am so capable, well......thank you. But I don't want to go
into the a point where I start being individualistic, and have a blog
of "authoritative voice".
I just want to enjoy comics and in some ways promote it as a serious
art. But I want to promote it in a passive way; "If you don't give
damn about comics, I have nothing to say to you." But you know what I
really want to do. I would like to gather a bunch of people with
similar interest in comics, and.........see what can be done. Talk and
discuss about comics, stuff like that.

When I do what I do, it is out of interest. If it so happens I'm not
in the mood for it, then I won't do it. I'm interested in comics, but
I'm not interested in maintaining a blog. So no blog of my own. I have
this believe that if you have interest in something, all you need is a
small group of friends to work with, and some day people will notice
if a good job is done. So I prefer to just keep things within a small
radius. No need to really go all out with guns blazing. Notice I don't
use words like Graphic Fiction or sequential art. "Comics" and
"funnies" are perfect.

So.......ya.

[HiHo]

The idea of a Singaporean perspective of interpreting comics is to my
opinion, rubbish, for most of it. Whatever Singaporean perspective
there must be in the interpretation of comics in the present, is
mostly worthless (there are worthy ones of course, like what ChengTju
did I guess). Why I say so?

Because if you really think about art in
general..........................

[Stefan Yong]

I don't know about that. Whenever you talk about comics at all, your
personal perspective is going to figure into it, unless you're
actively trying to remain objective. I'm not trying to say that a
Singapore perspective is any more important, just that perspectives in
general shape the way you think about comics. I enjoy reading pieces
about comics that have personality in them, and I tend to value the
perspective behind the personality. That said, you're right about
Singaporean perspectives about comics in general being mostly
worthless.

[HiHo]

I'm not directing anything at you Stefan. I never direct my words at
people specifically.

But you see, your perspective may not be my perspective, so how can
you believe that I'm right about the Singaporean perspective being
worthless?

[Stefan Yong]

Fair enough. I didn't intend to be confrontational.

[HiHo]

It's just that sometimes I have this silly fear, where people mistake
the message I'm trying to get out. I mean I don't have to give a damn
what other people think. But think about it. I say intellectualism,
and some people catch on and try being intellectual, but instead
create nonsense. It's in a way my fault. I'd rather keep things small
if that's the the case. Hope you understand.

At the end of the day, my choice to take comics seriously, even though
it is out of interest, I never viewed it as a game or something to be
fun. It is work; analyzing and such. It is hard work for me to do a
good piece of job. That's why I cannot blog about comics. I'll just be
writing a lot of nonsense if I have to blog often.