Decision on color copier

[kd4...@gmail.com]

I'm trying to wrap up a recommendation to my company to replace our
current color copier (IKON Canon CLC5000).

Can any of you share your experiences with the following?
IKON CPP500
Xerox Docucolor 240/250
Xerox Docucolor 5252

Approximate output is 30,000 per month. PMS color matching is vital.
Downtime is currently killing us. What are your experiences with
downtime.

Thanks much

[service tech]

k_gr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> What are your experiences with
> > downtime.
>

> While we were with Ikon we thought we needed servicemen in all the time. If
> you check the archives you will see photos of our Ikon IR5000 with service
> screens showing items were up to 390% past due.
>
> No wonder Ikon had informed me it was going to be breaking down more - they
> were right in their self fulfilling prophecy.
>
> Ikon would come in and maybe re-string a corona wire , look at the filters
> on yours are they clean -or were they thrown away. Our current service
> provider had to install 1 in our IR6000 that was missing under Ikon care -
> they say lack of this filter causes double maintenance.
>
> We see the maintenance person a lot less now (not Ikon) but we are buying
> the parts and they replace quite a few when they do need to come in.
>
> Our Xerox Docucolor 12 outperforms the CLC2400 that was Ikon damaged
> (managed) - 1/2 speed but several times more reliable - but Xerox replaces
> whole Corona Assemblies, Fusers, etc. when there is a problem - no band
> aids. I guess it helps to also be the manufacturer.
>
> If you could get a independent service in to look at your current machine I
> am guessing if its on contract a lot of things are over due. I am sorry I
> haven't been told the service screens for the CLC 5000 to see if maintenance
> is being neglected. If you find out please post the info here. Regards the
> Konica - if serviced by the same supplier as the Canon expect the same
> routine as currently getting. Its not the machine it is the service (or lack
> of in my opinion).
>
> Feel free to show this to your current supplier.
>
> Ken Graham
> CommunityPrinters.com
> 250-782-7108
> Dawson Creek BC Canada
> V1G 2G5
>
> 250-782-7108

[Jim Farley]

Pat,
   We have the Xerox Work Centre 7655, which is essentially a DC240 with an embedded RIP. We got a very early production model and the color is as consistent as the DC12 which sits next to it, but with a higher quality. It more closely approximates offset printing. No liney screens like the DC12, and since the fuser is non oil type we can get by with the much less expensive laminating films. D&K SuperStick is $$$. Overall, we have had very little downtime. One real breakdown, which was fixed in a day. The rest of the problems have been us getting used to running stock with the right grain. The 7655 is less tolerant of long-grain card stock than is the DC12. In the past 2 months, our DC 12 has broken down no less than 4 times, while running about a sixth or less the number of impressions that the 7655 has run. In our pleasing-color arena, we have not had any issues with the simple calibration the embedded RIP has to offer. It might not perfectly match pantone colors, but CMYK matches are rarely perfect. It does continuous tones MUCH better than the DC 12, which bands terribly even with a new copy print cartridge and imaging belt. If PMS color matching is vital, mention that to your sales rep from the very start, and insist on a two-week minimum demo in house. We have been very happy with our machine. We're paying the 7.9 cent per color click everyone else is paying.  B/W is .79 cents. That's for 13x19, friend!

On 10/2/06, k_gr...@hotmail.com <k_gr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

What are your experiences with
> downtime.

[MagmaManno]

DocuColor 240/250 is amazing. Excellent quality at 2400 DPI printing
and heavy paper stocks (110 lb cover). Virtually no service issues
other than regular maintenance. You can also replace many of the parts
yourself like fuser, drums, corona wire. Makes for great uptime.
Several RIP options...Fiery most popular.

The CPP500 is alright, however, their lack of industry knowledge and
experience puts them at a big disadvantage against Xerox.

I recommend the DocuColor 240.

MAGMA

[Steve Blatman]

Interesting... we looked at the C500, 3220, and 240/250. We could see
a distinct quality difference between the 3220 and the other two, but
nothing significant between the C500 and 240/250. Also, the C500
takes up to 256gsm stock, while the Xerox claims up to 300gsm, but,
when half of our testing turned out to be on 12pt Kromekote, the
Xerox guys were careful to tell me that the machine was only designed
to do that a minor percentage of the time.

When we were getting down to the home stretch in our evaluation (this
past summer), the vote on these forums among those who had compared
the three models above was over 90% for the C500 (I had expected a
more even division). When we did our evaluation, the Xerox could only
feed heavy stock from the bypass, and the rip in their demo room
choked on some of our pdfs.

Steve

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Steve Blatman
Ink Spot Printing & Copy Center, Inc.
14 Church Road, Frazer, PA 19355 USA
Tel: 610-647-0776
Fax: 610-647-4560

[Jim Farley]

Steve,
   We're able to do PLENTY of heavy gloss card stock on the 7655 (i.e. Kromekote 12 pt C1S), but you have to run grain short. That's the only catch. I haven't had the guts to try duplexing it (probably greyed out in options, I haven't looked), and I don't do enough cards to warrant loading a tray with it(other than bypass)


Jim

On 11/24/06, k_gr...@hotmail.com <k_gr...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Interesting... we looked at the C500, 3220, and 240/250. We could see
> a distinct quality difference between the 3220 and the other two, but
> nothing significant between the C500 and 240/250. Also, the C500
> takes up to 256gsm stock, while the Xerox claims up to 300gsm, but,
> when half of our testing turned out to be on 12pt Kromekote, the
> Xerox guys were careful to tell me that the machine was only designed
> to do that a minor percentage of the time.
>
> When we were getting down to the home stretch in our evaluation (this
> past summer), the vote on these forums among those who had compared
> the three models above was over 90% for the C500 (I had expected a
> more even division). When we did our evaluation, the Xerox could only
> feed heavy stock from the bypass, and the rip in their demo room
> choked on some of our pdfs.
>
> Steve

It seems you did okay Steve as you have Factory service. Our machine
supplied by Ikon never received that service in my opinion. At 50,000 copies
with toner splotches the machine is a writeoff for lack of service. A case
of inexperienced technicians never getting it right for more than 3 or 4
days and even at that they never did provide the color profile that was
supposed to go with the patched RIP.

For the few with Factory Service the C500 may be the better choice. Anyone
else in my opinion would be best to have something where they could replace
there own fuser, drums and corona wire. However I am still willing to
suggest one put both machines in on trial to decide, problem is I have heard
of people going over 100,000 copies before running into the service issue on
the Konicas. No doubt Konica is now going to promote there new 65 copy
machine - but does it have replaceable fusers, drums, corona wire or is it
the same old - same old?

The reasons for getting the Xerox increase with age,  ie.user serviceability
of the machine. No wonder we prefer the Doc 12 over the C500.

For the above reasons I recommend the Docucolor 240. The 250 is same speed
on 11x17 so it could only be recommended if provided at almost price of 240.

Ken Graham

[Steve Blatman]

You and Robin are absolutely correct -- without good service, any
machine is just a pile of (not very useful) parts. In this respect,
we're fortunate that we're located about 30 miles from the 5th
largest city in the US. Xerox, Canon, and KM have major offices
within a 30-45 minute drive. Ikon's world headquarters is about 2
miles from our shop, in one of the local corporate parks. This has
left us free to choose based on factors other than which vendor is
able to give us an acceptable level of service--a luxury many others do
not have. Scott, in San Diego, is probably in a very similar situation.
Those who are far from corporate service techs should, therefore, take our
recommendations with appropriate cautions.

Steve

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