Burnt After Brand ??? Question re NOT A NUMBER...Rupert Booth
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cmh-ham
Jul 14, 2011, 8:25:29 PM7/14/11
to colony3
I'm still brewing on the biography and I am sure will add something
profound eventually but in the meantime does anyone (MOOR??) know
anything about PMG playing Iago at Stratford after he played BRAND???
I can't find any mention of it on-line (or in that other gruesome bio)
but Booth has quite an extensive quote from Braham Murray of the
British Library Theatre Archive (page 102) implying that it was a
disaster....As far as I was aware other than Broadway and some
(possible) semi-pro/amateur productions in California he never
returned to the stage after BRAND. My "inner anorak" is
intrigued....O btw will be be no longer cmh.ham but carolinedunstable
after posting...
profound eventually but in the meantime does anyone (MOOR??) know
anything about PMG playing Iago at Stratford after he played BRAND???
I can't find any mention of it on-line (or in that other gruesome bio)
but Booth has quite an extensive quote from Braham Murray of the
British Library Theatre Archive (page 102) implying that it was a
disaster....As far as I was aware other than Broadway and some
(possible) semi-pro/amateur productions in California he never
returned to the stage after BRAND. My "inner anorak" is
intrigued....O btw will be be no longer cmh.ham but carolinedunstable
after posting...
Moor Larkin
Jul 15, 2011, 7:24:50 PM7/15/11
to colony3
It sounds like cobblers to me. McGoohan performing at Stratford would
have been huge news back then, regardless of whether the show was any
good or not; and I've never come across the slightest mention of it.
It sounds to me as if the guy is mixed up in his head with "All Night
Long" [an Othello update]. The time-frames would fit. That movie
bombed at the box office I think, so could be classed a *disaster*. I
think an American profile once suggested McGoohan had played Iago in
the theatre too and I'm pretty sure that quote was evidently talking
about Johnny Cousin; but lord knows where I've filed
THAT... ;-))))))) ...
It could even be that Braham Murray is conflating memories in his head
of McG's involvement in "Catch My Soul", which was another movie
disaster based on Othello.....
This is the trouble with inplicitly trusting memoirs, without
conducting any back-up research to check these old-timers' accuracy of
memory - a common Prisoner fan-boy failing, sadly.
Of course, I could be absolutely wrong, but if that meant I found out
that McGoo did get to bestride Stratford, once upon a time, then I
would be delighted to be shown up as the idiot.!!.... :-D))
ML
have been huge news back then, regardless of whether the show was any
good or not; and I've never come across the slightest mention of it.
It sounds to me as if the guy is mixed up in his head with "All Night
Long" [an Othello update]. The time-frames would fit. That movie
bombed at the box office I think, so could be classed a *disaster*. I
think an American profile once suggested McGoohan had played Iago in
the theatre too and I'm pretty sure that quote was evidently talking
about Johnny Cousin; but lord knows where I've filed
THAT... ;-))))))) ...
It could even be that Braham Murray is conflating memories in his head
of McG's involvement in "Catch My Soul", which was another movie
disaster based on Othello.....
This is the trouble with inplicitly trusting memoirs, without
conducting any back-up research to check these old-timers' accuracy of
memory - a common Prisoner fan-boy failing, sadly.
Of course, I could be absolutely wrong, but if that meant I found out
that McGoo did get to bestride Stratford, once upon a time, then I
would be delighted to be shown up as the idiot.!!.... :-D))
ML
carolinedunstable
Jul 16, 2011, 10:11:57 AM7/16/11
to colony3
Yes, it would be wonderful, wouldn't it!!! Maybe it was Strafford,
Ontario??? If it was I couldn't find any record of it...it wasn't
Stratford East so who knows.... Braham Murray's still about but well
up there (must be 90 now.)
I share your concerns re slavish belief in unsupported/unedited/
unannotated reports...due to the internet we just don't question
anything anymore and when something appears on half a dozen web-sites
it must obviously be "fact." Booth, to his credit, does couch the
comment with an "intriguingly" but it will soon pass into fandom and
beyond that PMG took the stage at Stratford playing Iago presumably to
Paul Robeson's Othello!!
BTW I got "All Night Long" on DVD (not the Network version) and that
was so "soup-like" all I was treated to was the terrifying "hep"
dialogue ...if it hadn't been for youtube I wouldn't have known it was
him even playing the drums.
Digression...a mate of mine worked for the BFI in their archives and
was dismayed to find that BFI researchers had started to credit actors
with roles that they had only been in contention for...the most
startling being Leonard Nimoy as Tony in West Side Story.....Goodness
knows what PMG's credits were...
What a world...
Ontario??? If it was I couldn't find any record of it...it wasn't
Stratford East so who knows.... Braham Murray's still about but well
up there (must be 90 now.)
I share your concerns re slavish belief in unsupported/unedited/
unannotated reports...due to the internet we just don't question
anything anymore and when something appears on half a dozen web-sites
it must obviously be "fact." Booth, to his credit, does couch the
comment with an "intriguingly" but it will soon pass into fandom and
beyond that PMG took the stage at Stratford playing Iago presumably to
Paul Robeson's Othello!!
BTW I got "All Night Long" on DVD (not the Network version) and that
was so "soup-like" all I was treated to was the terrifying "hep"
dialogue ...if it hadn't been for youtube I wouldn't have known it was
him even playing the drums.
Digression...a mate of mine worked for the BFI in their archives and
was dismayed to find that BFI researchers had started to credit actors
with roles that they had only been in contention for...the most
startling being Leonard Nimoy as Tony in West Side Story.....Goodness
knows what PMG's credits were...
What a world...
Moor Larkin
Jul 16, 2011, 4:20:46 PM7/16/11
to colony3
There is a *screenography* published in the 1980's that I think
contains credits for McG, that he was *up for*, but never actually
performed in. They confused the hell out of me when I first started
taking the subject seriously a few years ago. I had assumed that when
people published books, they actually knew stuff, rather than just
parroting factional fictions they had heard someplace else.
I would think the *Stratford* Braham Murray would be referring to
would be Stratford-on-Avon, where Shakespearean seasons were a big
thing back in the Fifties & Sixties, at the Memorial Theatre there.
Interestingly, Ian Bannen (a different old Ratcliffe boy) played Iago
there in 1961.
http://calm.shakespeare.org.uk/dserve/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Performance&dsqSearch=PerfCode==%27OTH196110%27&dsqCmd=Show.tcl
I have a video-tape of All Night Long, it plays perfectly nicely.
Sometimes progress isn't all it's cracked upto be.... ;-D)))))
contains credits for McG, that he was *up for*, but never actually
performed in. They confused the hell out of me when I first started
taking the subject seriously a few years ago. I had assumed that when
people published books, they actually knew stuff, rather than just
parroting factional fictions they had heard someplace else.
I would think the *Stratford* Braham Murray would be referring to
would be Stratford-on-Avon, where Shakespearean seasons were a big
thing back in the Fifties & Sixties, at the Memorial Theatre there.
Interestingly, Ian Bannen (a different old Ratcliffe boy) played Iago
there in 1961.
http://calm.shakespeare.org.uk/dserve/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Performance&dsqSearch=PerfCode==%27OTH196110%27&dsqCmd=Show.tcl
I have a video-tape of All Night Long, it plays perfectly nicely.
Sometimes progress isn't all it's cracked upto be.... ;-D)))))
Everyman
Jul 19, 2011, 12:55:12 AM7/19/11
to colony3
I met Braham Murray recently whilst attending a press night at The
Royal Exchange Theatre in Manchester. He's about to retire as artistic
director, I think. May be worth getting a letter to him? I have a
friend who works there, and sees him all the time.
On Jul 16, 9:20 pm, Moor Larkin <moor_lar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> There is a *screenography* published in the 1980's that I think
> contains credits for McG, that he was *up for*, but never actually
> performed in. They confused the hell out of me when I first started
> taking the subject seriously a few years ago. I had assumed that when
> people published books, they actually knew stuff, rather than just
> parroting factional fictions they had heard someplace else.
>
> I would think the *Stratford* Braham Murray would be referring to
> would be Stratford-on-Avon, where Shakespearean seasons were a big
> thing back in the Fifties & Sixties, at the Memorial Theatre there.
>
> Interestingly, Ian Bannen (a different old Ratcliffe boy) played Iago
> there in 1961.http://calm.shakespeare.org.uk/dserve/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&ds...
Royal Exchange Theatre in Manchester. He's about to retire as artistic
director, I think. May be worth getting a letter to him? I have a
friend who works there, and sees him all the time.
On Jul 16, 9:20 pm, Moor Larkin <moor_lar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> There is a *screenography* published in the 1980's that I think
> contains credits for McG, that he was *up for*, but never actually
> performed in. They confused the hell out of me when I first started
> taking the subject seriously a few years ago. I had assumed that when
> people published books, they actually knew stuff, rather than just
> parroting factional fictions they had heard someplace else.
>
> I would think the *Stratford* Braham Murray would be referring to
> would be Stratford-on-Avon, where Shakespearean seasons were a big
> thing back in the Fifties & Sixties, at the Memorial Theatre there.
>
> Interestingly, Ian Bannen (a different old Ratcliffe boy) played Iago
Moor Larkin
Jul 19, 2011, 5:11:10 PM7/19/11
to colony3
It suddenly dawned on me where the six days in jail business this book
*reports* came from. It's evidently been absorbed from "Once Upon A
Time". During his degree absolute Number Six refers to his driving
offence for speeding and it is eventually mentioned that #6 got six
days in prison......
This absurd book has conflated Prisoner fiction into the actor's
biography. No wonder it has a picture of Number Six on the cover,
rather than Patrick McGoohan. What a joke these people are.
*reports* came from. It's evidently been absorbed from "Once Upon A
Time". During his degree absolute Number Six refers to his driving
offence for speeding and it is eventually mentioned that #6 got six
days in prison......
This absurd book has conflated Prisoner fiction into the actor's
biography. No wonder it has a picture of Number Six on the cover,
rather than Patrick McGoohan. What a joke these people are.
carolinedunstable
Jul 20, 2011, 6:10:50 AM7/20/11
to colony3
Never thort of that one.....IPMG said that he had spent a short time
in jail in South Africa (a bit of artistic licence there I think) when
working with Kenneth Griffiths so I had assumed that Rupert Booth had
confused that event with the DUI incident in England....BTW the
documentaries they did together are never even mentioned....To spend 6
days in jail in the sixties for a DUI would have been unheard of....it
doesn;t happen now and "we" (those of us who WERE actually alive
during the sixties) were very lenient then....
I'm stil mulling over the book...it's so much more readable than
Langley's effort and there are some genuinely "new" insights through
some of the new interviews....but I could well have done without some
of his own interpretations ...he does have a way of taking a "slight"
remark and reading far more into than can be legitimately construed...
e.g. "I don't even beat my wife..." a joke of the times which leads
into a discourse on PMG;s violent childhood and the Irish
character!!!
Perhaps it's just that as I was alive at the time that I resent
whippersnappers daring to tlell me about things they really have
little knowledge of....shades of Longshanks...throw him out a window,
I say...
in jail in South Africa (a bit of artistic licence there I think) when
working with Kenneth Griffiths so I had assumed that Rupert Booth had
confused that event with the DUI incident in England....BTW the
documentaries they did together are never even mentioned....To spend 6
days in jail in the sixties for a DUI would have been unheard of....it
doesn;t happen now and "we" (those of us who WERE actually alive
during the sixties) were very lenient then....
I'm stil mulling over the book...it's so much more readable than
Langley's effort and there are some genuinely "new" insights through
some of the new interviews....but I could well have done without some
of his own interpretations ...he does have a way of taking a "slight"
remark and reading far more into than can be legitimately construed...
e.g. "I don't even beat my wife..." a joke of the times which leads
into a discourse on PMG;s violent childhood and the Irish
character!!!
Perhaps it's just that as I was alive at the time that I resent
whippersnappers daring to tlell me about things they really have
little knowledge of....shades of Longshanks...throw him out a window,
I say...
The Unmutual
Jul 20, 2011, 7:34:14 AM7/20/11
to col...@googlegroups.com
Your paragraph below Caroline is exactly how I view the book :)
--------------------------------------------------
From: "carolinedunstable" <cmh...@googlemail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 11:10 AM
To: "colony3" <col...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [colony3] Re: re NOT A NUMBER...Rupert Booth
Moor Larkin
Jul 20, 2011, 10:07:34 AM7/20/11
to colony3
Are you confusing the S.African thing with Kenneth Griffith? He said
in his autobiography that he was banged up over some Apartheid rule-
breaking once, but there was no suggestion McGoohan was involved or
even in the same country.
McGoohan had a land-rover crash in Africa back in 1958, when filming
Nor the Moon by Night, but that was said to have been caused by a
mechanical failure. McGoohan was certainly banned from driving in '64.
It's mentioned in the papers of the day and it's referred to in a
profile about him too, it describes how he was cycling to work and
leaving his bicycle in the car space marked out for him, as if to
emphasise and accept his embarrasment.
The six days stuff is clearly some fanboy raving from the notion that
"Once Upon A Time" was so *autobiographical* that it was actually real-
life. Let's not dignify this nonsense by talking about innocent
confusion. It's just a pile of crap.
ML
> > rather than Patrick McGoohan. What a joke these people are.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
in his autobiography that he was banged up over some Apartheid rule-
breaking once, but there was no suggestion McGoohan was involved or
even in the same country.
McGoohan had a land-rover crash in Africa back in 1958, when filming
Nor the Moon by Night, but that was said to have been caused by a
mechanical failure. McGoohan was certainly banned from driving in '64.
It's mentioned in the papers of the day and it's referred to in a
profile about him too, it describes how he was cycling to work and
leaving his bicycle in the car space marked out for him, as if to
emphasise and accept his embarrasment.
The six days stuff is clearly some fanboy raving from the notion that
"Once Upon A Time" was so *autobiographical* that it was actually real-
life. Let's not dignify this nonsense by talking about innocent
confusion. It's just a pile of crap.
ML
>
> - Show quoted text -
The Unmutual
Jul 20, 2011, 2:21:08 PM7/20/11
to col...@googlegroups.com
It IS possible that it's innocent confusion though, you're being a little
harsh I feel. It would be nice to hear Mr Booth's "side of the story" before
calling things "a pile of crap", which is unnecessary and also untrue :)
harsh I feel. It would be nice to hear Mr Booth's "side of the story" before
calling things "a pile of crap", which is unnecessary and also untrue :)
If it's as untrue as we think it is, then it's a mistake, nothing more
serious than that. Like Caroline said, even if you detest everything about
the book there are new interviews in it which had the book not been written
would not have happened, and therefore I'm very glad the book exists - the
Green and Rakoff interviews in particular are fabulous!
Rick
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Moor Larkin" <moor_...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 3:07 PM
To: "colony3" <col...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [colony3] Re: re NOT A NUMBER...Rupert Booth
> Are you confusing the S.African thing with Kenneth Griffith? He said
> --
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>
Moor Larkin
Jul 20, 2011, 4:58:25 PM7/20/11
to colony3
The story that McGoohan spent six days in prison is factually a pile
of crap and is evidently derived from some nonsensical fable that has
been picked up from prisonerfans who think Six was McGoohan and the
inclusion of this "serious charge" demonstrates a wilful ignorance.
The other point carolinedunstable mentions about the book's diversion
into postulating a "violent childhood" is staggeringly wrong. Here's
McGoohan's own words from 1965:
"To a child everything seems possible, and anything at all can always
be about to happen. My parents understood this, so that I and my four
sisters could always share any of our wild and extravagant ideas with
them and never know the rebuff of being told we were 'silly' or
'talking nonsense'. In return they shared everything with us, problems
as well as hopes. Forty years of marraige still hasn't stopped either
of my parents from reminiscing about their courting days.... "
This *violence* business is an insulting pile of crap to both the man
and his family.
ML
On Jul 20, 7:21 pm, "The Unmutual" <i...@theunmutual.co.uk> wrote:
> It IS possible that it's innocent confusion though, you're being a little
> harsh I feel. It would be nice to hear Mr Booth's "side of the story" before
> calling things "a pile of crap", which is unnecessary and also untrue :)
>
> If it's as untrue as we think it is, then it's a mistake, nothing more
> serious than that. Like Caroline said, even if you detest everything about
> the book there are new interviews in it which had the book not been written
> would not have happened, and therefore I'm very glad the book exists - the
> Green and Rakoff interviews in particular are fabulous!
>
> Rick
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Moor Larkin" <moor_lar...@yahoo.co.uk>
of crap and is evidently derived from some nonsensical fable that has
been picked up from prisonerfans who think Six was McGoohan and the
inclusion of this "serious charge" demonstrates a wilful ignorance.
The other point carolinedunstable mentions about the book's diversion
into postulating a "violent childhood" is staggeringly wrong. Here's
McGoohan's own words from 1965:
"To a child everything seems possible, and anything at all can always
be about to happen. My parents understood this, so that I and my four
sisters could always share any of our wild and extravagant ideas with
them and never know the rebuff of being told we were 'silly' or
'talking nonsense'. In return they shared everything with us, problems
as well as hopes. Forty years of marraige still hasn't stopped either
of my parents from reminiscing about their courting days.... "
This *violence* business is an insulting pile of crap to both the man
and his family.
ML
On Jul 20, 7:21 pm, "The Unmutual" <i...@theunmutual.co.uk> wrote:
> It IS possible that it's innocent confusion though, you're being a little
> harsh I feel. It would be nice to hear Mr Booth's "side of the story" before
> calling things "a pile of crap", which is unnecessary and also untrue :)
>
> If it's as untrue as we think it is, then it's a mistake, nothing more
> serious than that. Like Caroline said, even if you detest everything about
> the book there are new interviews in it which had the book not been written
> would not have happened, and therefore I'm very glad the book exists - the
> Green and Rakoff interviews in particular are fabulous!
>
> Rick
>
> --------------------------------------------------
The Unmutual
Jul 20, 2011, 5:14:02 PM7/20/11
to col...@googlegroups.com
I agree with you about all that :) I'm just suggesting that the book is not
without its merits also :)
without its merits also :)
I think any biographer obviously has to try and "get under the skin" of the
person they're writing about, but as you say needs to base that on fact and
not unfounded opinion, I think we're ALL agreed on that.
I will say one thing in Booth's favour though, in all that has been written
about PMcG over the years, not many have chosen to concentrate so largely on
the lovely married life that "Pat and Joan" had, and it's refreshing to see
that in this book (if one can ignore the "piles of crap" :):):):)
I always find the "he hated women" stuff even more wrong when I think of
those two, i'm getting married next year and if I last as long as Pat and
Joan did I'll be a very content old man :)
Rick
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Moor Larkin" <moor_...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:58 PM
carolinedunstable
Jul 21, 2011, 8:15:18 AM7/21/11
to colony3
Yes, PMG and his driving licence were separated on at least two
occasions for DUI but he certainly never went to jail.
Well, I am both confused probably confusing in general but...AND
please note my source is Roger Langley's book so don't shoot the
messenger!!.....page 191 he (PMG) "supposedly" commented to a NZ
writer on playing chess with other prisoners after being too outspoken
about apartheid...
It's probably intriguing but complete bunk. I've never heard this
mentioned anywhere else, either by PMG or Kenneth Griffith (in The
Fool's Pardon subsequent interviews etc) about either of them...(as we
welsh can't resist spinning out a great yarn the whole thing is very
suspect.) Likely to be just one of these stories that get embroidered
on so much over the years that it just simply becomes the truth....Or
just as likely "if it's on the Net then it has to be true!!!"
I feel I have to stand up and be counted on the new bio. Overall, I
enjoyed it....it wasn't just a list of screen credits or dry
recitation/accumulation of everything ever posted on our man. The book
had a point of view and a hook to hang it on, while it's title
actually related to that hook. Langley's Dangerman or Prisoner? never
attempted to either pose the question nor answer it.
Though I didn't like Langley's book, I would hate to call anybody's
hard graft (and labour of love) a pile of crap. neither of them
rushed some, hack supermarket "cheepo" bio out that could have been
either, a "made up" tell-all or vicious hatchet job. Langley truly
embraced his inner anorak with sheer density of text alone which must
have taken him years to write, or "compile" yes, "sarky comment" I
know, but it was far more a reference book than attempt to get under
his subject's skin.
Booth has also obviously worked very hard and tracked down a lot of
new interviews with people who had interesting and good things to say
about the man. He has a good accessible readable style, and his book
rattles along with a clear structure. I was never confused by his
"timeline," I always knew "when" he was talking about and frankly I
couldn't say that about the other one. He is capable of writing
clear sentences that aren't confused by so many clauses that you've
lost your way completely by the end ( again, step forward Mr.
LANGLEY.)
Yes, by using The Prisoner as effectively a 17 hour epic bio he's
chancing his arm, as well as reading an awful lot into what is
actually an entertainment. However, no writer or actor creates
anything worthwhile without revealing a lot of themselves, wittingly
or unwittingly. PMG himself said the series was all his, "Every nut
and bolt," it certainly isn't unreasonable to base a bio on it. This
is especially true if, as Booth does, you come clean and state this
right at the beginning, effectively putting your hands up and saying
"I know, it's a liberty but...." PMG didn't write an autobiography,
he was very, very mischievous, taking apparently great delight in
misdirecting journalists and apparently contradicting himself from
interview to interview, therefore looking for insight through his work
is perfectly reasonable. No, PMG wasn't No.6 but, the whole series has
his clear authorial style/tone and he was proud to be associated with
it. I don't think this book is anymore simply "fanboy raving,"
anymore than what we're doing by posting on this site.
Having gone on and on and on I do have to say that some of his
observations had me grinding my teeth!!
occasions for DUI but he certainly never went to jail.
Well, I am both confused probably confusing in general but...AND
please note my source is Roger Langley's book so don't shoot the
messenger!!.....page 191 he (PMG) "supposedly" commented to a NZ
writer on playing chess with other prisoners after being too outspoken
about apartheid...
It's probably intriguing but complete bunk. I've never heard this
mentioned anywhere else, either by PMG or Kenneth Griffith (in The
Fool's Pardon subsequent interviews etc) about either of them...(as we
welsh can't resist spinning out a great yarn the whole thing is very
suspect.) Likely to be just one of these stories that get embroidered
on so much over the years that it just simply becomes the truth....Or
just as likely "if it's on the Net then it has to be true!!!"
I feel I have to stand up and be counted on the new bio. Overall, I
enjoyed it....it wasn't just a list of screen credits or dry
recitation/accumulation of everything ever posted on our man. The book
had a point of view and a hook to hang it on, while it's title
actually related to that hook. Langley's Dangerman or Prisoner? never
attempted to either pose the question nor answer it.
Though I didn't like Langley's book, I would hate to call anybody's
hard graft (and labour of love) a pile of crap. neither of them
rushed some, hack supermarket "cheepo" bio out that could have been
either, a "made up" tell-all or vicious hatchet job. Langley truly
embraced his inner anorak with sheer density of text alone which must
have taken him years to write, or "compile" yes, "sarky comment" I
know, but it was far more a reference book than attempt to get under
his subject's skin.
Booth has also obviously worked very hard and tracked down a lot of
new interviews with people who had interesting and good things to say
about the man. He has a good accessible readable style, and his book
rattles along with a clear structure. I was never confused by his
"timeline," I always knew "when" he was talking about and frankly I
couldn't say that about the other one. He is capable of writing
clear sentences that aren't confused by so many clauses that you've
lost your way completely by the end ( again, step forward Mr.
LANGLEY.)
Yes, by using The Prisoner as effectively a 17 hour epic bio he's
chancing his arm, as well as reading an awful lot into what is
actually an entertainment. However, no writer or actor creates
anything worthwhile without revealing a lot of themselves, wittingly
or unwittingly. PMG himself said the series was all his, "Every nut
and bolt," it certainly isn't unreasonable to base a bio on it. This
is especially true if, as Booth does, you come clean and state this
right at the beginning, effectively putting your hands up and saying
"I know, it's a liberty but...." PMG didn't write an autobiography,
he was very, very mischievous, taking apparently great delight in
misdirecting journalists and apparently contradicting himself from
interview to interview, therefore looking for insight through his work
is perfectly reasonable. No, PMG wasn't No.6 but, the whole series has
his clear authorial style/tone and he was proud to be associated with
it. I don't think this book is anymore simply "fanboy raving,"
anymore than what we're doing by posting on this site.
Having gone on and on and on I do have to say that some of his
observations had me grinding my teeth!!
carolinedunstable
Jul 21, 2011, 8:38:14 AM7/21/11
to colony3
I agree with you about the Green and Rakoff interviews and it's such a
shame that PMG and Rakoff didn't carry on with their plans cos "The
Best of Friends" is lovely and he was just great in it...I'm glad this
book is out there....and overall I liked it.
What worries me isn't that something's a "mistake," it's that we don't
seem to question anything that is on the Net. And, even more
worryingly that if it's on the Net,then it MUST be true. It doesn't
matter so much if the fact is something as simple as someone had fair
hair or red, but when you see in print that they spent 6 days in jail
for a DUI then, it's more worrying. That is the sort of detail you
don't want to get wrong. This is a fact that should have been checked
and if it couldn't have been confirmed, not included.
If it's in print, rightly or wrongly, it's assumed to be correct. I
don't know about you, but I would be very WORRIED if I read somewhere
I'd been jailed when I wasn't, and if I was (WHICH I HAVEN'T BEEN)I'd
like to keep it as quiet as possible!
shame that PMG and Rakoff didn't carry on with their plans cos "The
Best of Friends" is lovely and he was just great in it...I'm glad this
book is out there....and overall I liked it.
What worries me isn't that something's a "mistake," it's that we don't
seem to question anything that is on the Net. And, even more
worryingly that if it's on the Net,then it MUST be true. It doesn't
matter so much if the fact is something as simple as someone had fair
hair or red, but when you see in print that they spent 6 days in jail
for a DUI then, it's more worrying. That is the sort of detail you
don't want to get wrong. This is a fact that should have been checked
and if it couldn't have been confirmed, not included.
If it's in print, rightly or wrongly, it's assumed to be correct. I
don't know about you, but I would be very WORRIED if I read somewhere
I'd been jailed when I wasn't, and if I was (WHICH I HAVEN'T BEEN)I'd
like to keep it as quiet as possible!
> It IS possible that it's innocent confusion though, you're being a little
> harsh I feel. It would be nice to hear Mr Booth's "side of the story" before
> calling things "a pile of crap", which is unnecessary and also untrue :)
>
> If it's as untrue as we think it is, then it's a mistake, nothing more
> serious than that. Like Caroline said, even if you detest everything about
> the book there are new interviews in it which had the book not been written
> would not have happened, and therefore I'm very glad the book exists - the
> Green and Rakoff interviews in particular are fabulous!
>
> Rick
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Moor Larkin" <moor_lar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> harsh I feel. It would be nice to hear Mr Booth's "side of the story" before
> calling things "a pile of crap", which is unnecessary and also untrue :)
>
> If it's as untrue as we think it is, then it's a mistake, nothing more
> serious than that. Like Caroline said, even if you detest everything about
> the book there are new interviews in it which had the book not been written
> would not have happened, and therefore I'm very glad the book exists - the
> Green and Rakoff interviews in particular are fabulous!
>
> Rick
>
> --------------------------------------------------
carolinedunstable
Jul 21, 2011, 8:46:18 AM7/21/11
to colony3
yes, this really got me going....PMG was always almost lyrical about
his childhood....the 50's and 60's were different times the "off the
cuff" remark was simply a "joke" that doesn't lend itself well to
modern times.
I suspect that some of today's one-liners won't go down too well, with
hindsight, with future generations either.
Tks for the full and lovely quote....he should have written his own
autobiog..I think it would have rated up there with George Sanders' or
Errol Flynn's..... Ah, well, coulda, shoulda, woulda.....
his childhood....the 50's and 60's were different times the "off the
cuff" remark was simply a "joke" that doesn't lend itself well to
modern times.
I suspect that some of today's one-liners won't go down too well, with
hindsight, with future generations either.
Tks for the full and lovely quote....he should have written his own
autobiog..I think it would have rated up there with George Sanders' or
Errol Flynn's..... Ah, well, coulda, shoulda, woulda.....
carolinedunstable
Jul 21, 2011, 8:56:57 AM7/21/11
to colony3
Congrats to you and your "Joan" on your upcoming nuptuials...I hope
you two do get to emulate Pat and Joan's partnership, and are as happy
as they seem to have been...Hmmm they were married in 1951..he died in
2009....have you got time to get almost 60 years in??? Anyway, best
wishes to you both..
On Jul 20, 10:14 pm, "The Unmutual" <i...@theunmutual.co.uk> wrote:
> I agree with you about all that :) I'm just suggesting that the book is not
> without its merits also :)
>
> I think any biographer obviously has to try and "get under the skin" of the
> person they're writing about, but as you say needs to base that on fact and
> not unfounded opinion, I think we're ALL agreed on that.
>
> I will say one thing in Booth's favour though, in all that has been written
> about PMcG over the years, not many have chosen to concentrate so largely on
> the lovely married life that "Pat and Joan" had, and it's refreshing to see
> that in this book (if one can ignore the "piles of crap" :):):):)
>
> I always find the "he hated women" stuff even more wrong when I think of
> those two, i'm getting married next year and if I last as long as Pat and
> Joan did I'll be a very content old man :)
>
> Rick
>
> --------------------------------------------------
you two do get to emulate Pat and Joan's partnership, and are as happy
as they seem to have been...Hmmm they were married in 1951..he died in
2009....have you got time to get almost 60 years in??? Anyway, best
wishes to you both..
On Jul 20, 10:14 pm, "The Unmutual" <i...@theunmutual.co.uk> wrote:
> I agree with you about all that :) I'm just suggesting that the book is not
> without its merits also :)
>
> I think any biographer obviously has to try and "get under the skin" of the
> person they're writing about, but as you say needs to base that on fact and
> not unfounded opinion, I think we're ALL agreed on that.
>
> I will say one thing in Booth's favour though, in all that has been written
> about PMcG over the years, not many have chosen to concentrate so largely on
> the lovely married life that "Pat and Joan" had, and it's refreshing to see
> that in this book (if one can ignore the "piles of crap" :):):):)
>
> I always find the "he hated women" stuff even more wrong when I think of
> those two, i'm getting married next year and if I last as long as Pat and
> Joan did I'll be a very content old man :)
>
> Rick
>
> --------------------------------------------------
carolinedunstable
Jul 21, 2011, 9:05:49 AM7/21/11
to colony3
Do it!!
Moor Larkin
Jul 21, 2011, 12:40:38 PM7/21/11
to colony3
I didn't call the book a pile of crap. I was referring to the six days
in prison *story*.
"The six days stuff is clearly some fanboy raving from the notion
that
"Once Upon A Time" was so *autobiographical* that it was actually
real-
life. Let's not dignify this nonsense by talking about innocent
confusion. It's just a pile of crap. "
The rambling about a violent childhood I referred to as an insulting
pile of crap, because it plainly is a load of crap because McGoohan
HIMSELF told of his idyllic childhood and it's an insult to his
parents who plainly GAVE him that good time.
So far as the generality of these books are concerned, the Langley one
works a reference, as far as it goes. He gets far more right than he
gets wrong, it works as a difficult to use sort of encyclopedia. Ian
Rakoff's book has the same merits and flaws.
I daresay I'll purloin a copy of Booth's book sooner or later but I'm
sorry to hear of these gross factual errors but they can never now be
UNpublished can they.People will believe it even more than if they
read it on the net, because "it's in a book" It's like that tale that
headed up by a Vincent Tilsley quote in Fairclough's book all those
years ago about Markstein, Xmas and McGoohan. It was a *fantasy* but
it was presented as a *fact*. At least things on internet pages can be
re-edited. A novel should be judged on whether it *reads well*, not a
purported biography.
A chap attempted a biographical play recently,but he was upfront aout
it being a blend of McGoohan and Number Six and so a piece of
dramadocumentary that could illustrate the man via the character he
created. Anyhow, we all agree so let's leave this here for posterity.
ML
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
in prison *story*.
"The six days stuff is clearly some fanboy raving from the notion
that
"Once Upon A Time" was so *autobiographical* that it was actually
real-
life. Let's not dignify this nonsense by talking about innocent
confusion. It's just a pile of crap. "
pile of crap, because it plainly is a load of crap because McGoohan
HIMSELF told of his idyllic childhood and it's an insult to his
parents who plainly GAVE him that good time.
So far as the generality of these books are concerned, the Langley one
works a reference, as far as it goes. He gets far more right than he
gets wrong, it works as a difficult to use sort of encyclopedia. Ian
Rakoff's book has the same merits and flaws.
I daresay I'll purloin a copy of Booth's book sooner or later but I'm
sorry to hear of these gross factual errors but they can never now be
UNpublished can they.People will believe it even more than if they
read it on the net, because "it's in a book" It's like that tale that
headed up by a Vincent Tilsley quote in Fairclough's book all those
years ago about Markstein, Xmas and McGoohan. It was a *fantasy* but
it was presented as a *fact*. At least things on internet pages can be
re-edited. A novel should be judged on whether it *reads well*, not a
purported biography.
A chap attempted a biographical play recently,but he was upfront aout
it being a blend of McGoohan and Number Six and so a piece of
dramadocumentary that could illustrate the man via the character he
created. Anyhow, we all agree so let's leave this here for posterity.
ML
carolinedunstable
Jul 21, 2011, 5:27:31 PM7/21/11
to colony3
Agreed....
AnyhOO, PMG always said that he'd love to create another furore like
he did with "Fall Out" so, maybe he's chuckling away to himself on a
cloud in his heavenly village after this..if he isn't gearing up to
chucking thunderbolts at us all for not minding our own business's!
Do give Booth's book a look some time, it's generally respectful and
admiring....bearing in mind a clunky mistake or two and those "wild"
suppositions that got me going...
AnyhOO, PMG always said that he'd love to create another furore like
he did with "Fall Out" so, maybe he's chuckling away to himself on a
cloud in his heavenly village after this..if he isn't gearing up to
chucking thunderbolts at us all for not minding our own business's!
Do give Booth's book a look some time, it's generally respectful and
admiring....bearing in mind a clunky mistake or two and those "wild"
suppositions that got me going...
Moor Larkin
Jul 21, 2011, 6:20:19 PM7/21/11
to colony3
Just one more thing...... ;-))
To clear up any confusion I might have caused....
Griffith never said he was banged up... :-))) He tells one story
about an early career visit to S. Africa where his permission to stay
was not renewed, he understood because he offended the apertheid
authorities. During the time he was there on McG's business, his
apartheid *argument* was merely with some hotel management.
I looked up that Langley page. Thanks. I vaguely recalled it. It's on
pages replete with *stories*... ;-))) The reference he gives for it
is very strange. He names "New Zealand television review, 1984,
details unknown". I would guess it's some old note from the Six-of-One
collection he must have accumulated over the decades but it sounds
like he hasn't got any clear documentation. The quote looks
suspiciously like more fanbabble to be honest, "I found out that one
of my crew was actually a spy for the governement. They threw me in
jail.,.... " It's certainly not a McG story I've come across anyplace
else although once or twice he discussed his collaboration with
Griffith.
As I remarked originally, McGoohan in jail in 1964 or 1969 or so would
have made headline news, but I won't get myself revved up all over
again.... :-D)))))))
ML
To clear up any confusion I might have caused....
Griffith never said he was banged up... :-))) He tells one story
about an early career visit to S. Africa where his permission to stay
was not renewed, he understood because he offended the apertheid
authorities. During the time he was there on McG's business, his
apartheid *argument* was merely with some hotel management.
I looked up that Langley page. Thanks. I vaguely recalled it. It's on
pages replete with *stories*... ;-))) The reference he gives for it
is very strange. He names "New Zealand television review, 1984,
details unknown". I would guess it's some old note from the Six-of-One
collection he must have accumulated over the decades but it sounds
like he hasn't got any clear documentation. The quote looks
suspiciously like more fanbabble to be honest, "I found out that one
of my crew was actually a spy for the governement. They threw me in
jail.,.... " It's certainly not a McG story I've come across anyplace
else although once or twice he discussed his collaboration with
Griffith.
As I remarked originally, McGoohan in jail in 1964 or 1969 or so would
have made headline news, but I won't get myself revved up all over
again.... :-D)))))))
ML
The Unmutual
Jul 23, 2011, 4:40:45 PM7/23/11
to col...@googlegroups.com
Yes I think we're all agreed on that, very well put may I say!
One thing I think I'll say is that when it comes to PMcG there are probably
only 2 people who could do a book "justice" outside of PMcG's close circle
of friends and family, and that's Moor Larkin, and Roger Goodman, but in a
sense are they too close to the subject to have written it?
But it's always the way that the "best people for the job" are beaten to it
by those that are not quite up to it. I still think the "ultimate" Prisoner
book is yet to be written for example, and I'd like to think I'd do a good
job of that, but it's finding the time isn't it and then someone lacking in
the knowledge needed beats one to it?
Outside of the above 2 people, Booth did as good a job as anyone could
have - EVERY biography has mistakes in it, but I wholeheartendly agree with
your various posts. His style is very readible, he does have a hook, it's an
enjoyable read overall, and has some good new stuff. Is it perfect? No. Does
it annoy? At times/ Was it worth the �7-8 to get it? Definitely :)
Rick
--------------------------------------------------
From: "carolinedunstable" <cmh...@googlemail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 1:38 PM
Moor Larkin
Jun 19, 2012, 12:00:55 PM6/19/12
to col...@googlegroups.com
Is this mis-reporting by the Daily Mirror, or did this so-called biographer REALLY not even bother to find out where Patrick McGoohan was brought up?
8-O
The dashing star, who was brought up in Mullaghmore, Co Sligo, was first choice to play the womanising English spy in the first Bond movie
Linda Schley
Jun 19, 2012, 8:54:53 PM6/19/12
to col...@googlegroups.com
the entire article is composed of all i
despise. and yes the quote is taken directly from the book, page 14.
i have wanted to send booth an email so many times to bring to his attention
items that i know are wrong, i have them highlighted and purple lettering WRONG
again, why do i know more than you, but alas i have never written a book, but if
so mine would be researched properly. thanks for sharing this, ending the
evening with a headache! oh how i wish the mcgoohan family would write
their own book and set all this to rest.
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