Design costs - how long is a piece of string

[Mark Aufflick]

Hi all,

Happy new year etc. - hope everyone has had a good break.

I'm wondering if people can comment on a range of costs for design
work for iPhone apps. I know, that's an impossible question, but
humour me.

If you're giving a designer a handful of UI screens and give them a
brief to design backgrounds, some icons, etc. I'm interested in
knowing the ballpark of what you pay (in Australia).

Cheers,

Mark.

--
Mark Aufflick
contact info at http://mark.aufflick.com/about/contact

[Kyle Buttress]

Hi Mark,

Like you've said its hard to guess..

I've had a couple of apps done with some art work and I think it was a little low on the cost.

Between $200 - $500 for some icons, buttons and some background imagery

It's hard, at the time I wasn't sure if was a good price, I needed them fairly fast. I think if I shopped around It could be cheaper.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Kyle

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
To post to this group, send email to cocoah...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cocoaheadsau...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cocoaheadsau?hl=en.

[Tom Adams]

Hi Mark,

One way to look at it is how long do you expect them to take, and how much an hour do they charge. If they're a freelance designer, you'd probably be looking at anything from $50-100 an hour depending on how good they are. Also depends on how complex the requirements are. I think a designer could probably do 1-2 screens per day, not sure of icons.

If you have say around 5 screens, and some icons, backgrounds, gradients, etc., I'd think it'd cost anywhere from $2-5K depending on the number of screens, quality required & complexity.

Is this the sort of thing you're after??

Tom

> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
> To post to this group, send email to cocoah...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cocoaheadsau...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cocoaheadsau?hl=en.
>
>

--
tom adams | e:tomjadams<at>gmail.com

[Mathieu Tozer]

Considering these design costs on top of development costs for
independent developers, I wonder how many or what percentage of apps
produced actually make back in sales what they cost to produce.

If you are developing an app for a company who plans to give the app
away for free, like a Perfume/cologne or coca cola app where it's main
purpose to promote some other product, then that cost is trivial and
this doesn't really apply. But if it's your own app or one for a
smaller client who expects to make their money back in sales of the
app itself, well I have a pessimistic view. What do others think?

- Mathieu on iPhone

[Mark Aufflick]

I guess that's the balance I'm trying to work out - what is a
reasonable budget and therefore what level of custom design am I
realistically going to be able to do, but it's partly a cyclical
problem because if the minimum design I'm happy with is a fair chunk
of cash then I need to factor that in - perhaps reduce the number of
screens rather than have more features, with less lickability.

[Sadat Rahman]

On 05/01/2010, at 12:29 PM, Mathieu Tozer wrote:

> this doesn't really apply. But if it's your own app or one for a
> smaller client who expects to make their money back in sales of the
> app itself, well I have a pessimistic view. What do others think?

Well, I have to say I agree with you on this. Right now, with over 100,000 apps on the App Store, the competition is fierce unless you are the author of Trism or OzWeather, etc. You really have to go the extra mile to make your app stand out - focusing on good design, usability and maybe lots of eye-candy. Not to mention all the hours you have to put in following up on user feedback / reviews & bug fixes. I am not sure if a lot of app developers break even in a reasonable period of time.

[Nathan de Vries]

On 05/01/2010, at 12:29 PM, Mathieu Tozer wrote:

> ...I wonder how many or what percentage of apps produced actually

> make back in sales what they cost to produce.

I'd say almost none, unless you're willing to write it yourself and
factor your time out of the "cost". Startups & small businesses
attempting to pay for skilled design & development of iPhone
applications will struggle if they plan on making their revenue
exclusively from the App Store.

Think of it this way, you pay roughly $5000 for design and $15000 for
development of a basic application. Work out how many applications
you'd need to sell to recoup the $20000, or $28500 once you factor in
Apple's share. Then work out how much it costs market the application,
keep it up to date with new features and bug-fixes, wrangle the
community that springs up around it etc.

Unless you've got other parts of your business that can subsidise the
development or you're capable of building it yourself, it's a pretty
risky venture.

Cheers,

Nathan

[Mathieu Tozer]

- Mathieu

On 04/01/2010, at 9:32 PM, Sadat Rahman <sadat....@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 05/01/2010, at 12:29 PM, Mathieu Tozer wrote:
>
>> this doesn't really apply. But if it's your own app or one for a
>> smaller client who expects to make their money back in sales of the
>> app itself, well I have a pessimistic view. What do others think?
>
> Well, I have to say I agree with you on this. Right now, with over
> 100,000 apps on the App Store, the competition is fierce unless you
> are the author of Trism or OzWeather, etc. You really have to go the
> extra mile to make your app stand out - focusing on good design,
> usability and maybe lots of eye-candy.

Which is expensive, and even then, the app can sink into obscurity.

> Not to mention all the hours you have to put in following up on user
> feedback / reviews & bug fixes. I am not sure if a lot of app
> developers break even in a reasonable period of time.

Or at all!

Sorry to be negative folks but it's just reality and I'm saying it.

[Mathieu Tozer]

- Mathieu

Exactly, so when will this bubble burst?

Might be bad news for poeple who have quit their day jobs! Maybe not.
I dunno. I just doubt that the vast majority of people working on
apps are breaking even and therefore it's only for hobbyists. Which is
FINE of course.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nathan

[Gareth Townsend]

The gold rush is over. Some people won, most lost.

The Tablet (if/when it comes) could be another gold rush. Are you prepared to take on the risk?

Cheers,
Gareth Townsend
http://www.garethtownsend.info
http://www.melbournecocoaheads.com

[Nathan de Vries]

On 05/01/2010, at 2:47 PM, Mathieu Tozer wrote:
> Exactly, so when will this bubble burst?

This "bubble" isn't specific to the iPhone, it's a general
misconception that wantrepeneurs have about business. If you've quit
your job based on the premise that you can pay someone a few grand to
build a product to live off, you're in for an up-hill battle. Web,
mobile or otherwise.

That's not to say that it can't be done, but you need to bring
*something* to the table other than an idea. If you're a marketer, you
could do the marketing. If you're a developer, you could do the
development. The more skills you have (i.e. a combination of design,
development & marketing), the more likely it is that a good idea will
make some money.

Cheers,

Nathan de Vries

[Sean Woodhouse]

I think it's fair to say that if you want a good chance of making a
sustainable living off iPhone development:

- write iPhone apps for people who pay you to build them
- write (and potentially give away) iPhone apps as a value-add to a
niche vertical SAAS

Investing a whole lot of time & money into writing an app and hoping
it'll make it big on the store is like buying a lottery ticket. I
don't buy lottery tickets (unless it's for the 30 million draw of
course ;-).

Cheers

Sean.

[Oleg Kiorsak]

exactly...

what I noticed is that my apps were selling kinda ok! for a "night-shift hobby business"...
for the first 2 (two!!) days after been released... whilst there were on top of "by released date" lists in their respective categories... but than they sank to the bottom fo that 100,000 apps ocean... :(

only some very odd and strange people stumble upon them occasioanally... and suprisingly more often on the one that I deemed as absolutely silly, rather than one I though has some utility value...

I don't think any amount of "eye candy" graphics logo design can bring them back to the layer with any "visibility" now ... only some sort of "heavy marketing" campaign, but then that would the rest of the "margin" that was there to make...

currently I am conducting a "statistical experiment" with so called "Facebook Ads" in Facebook.. nothing conclusive either..
anyone had any epxerience to say if it is any good or just wast eof money??
 (albeit quite "enetertaining, esp. for someone who never worked in marketing - funny terminology - "impressions", CPC etc crap ;)

cheers,

O.K.
http://apps.okapps.net/

[Kyle Buttress]

Hi,

Clearly there are many factors to the consistent selling of apps on the app store..

The icon and graphics are an important part of this. In a sea of applications you have a small window to catch the eye of the viewer
and good quality visuals help with that.

Then there is the long tail effect of the app and the usability and usefulness it provides.

So to keep in the context of the original question. setting a budget is one option, but being happy with the quality of the graphic work is just as important.

If you are after a quick buck and they are harder to find on the store then its a choice you make on the amount you spend. I like to think there there is money there but it may take a bit longer to get to your pocket.

It's about being useful and marketing.


cheers
K

[Oleg Kiorsak]

I would argue that the quality of the graphic and icon does matter a lot BUT only whilst it appears on a front page in iTunes
or on the 1st page of the category list... otherwise nobody sees it regardless whether it's pretty or not...

??

cheers,
O.K.

[Sadat Rahman]

On 05/01/2010, at 3:50 PM, Oleg Kiorsak wrote:

I would argue that the quality of the graphic and icon does matter a lot BUT only whilst it appears on a front page in iTunes
or on the 1st page of the category list... otherwise nobody sees it regardless whether it's pretty or not...

I don't completely agree. You can search on a keyword, and come up with a list of apps. If your app icon stands out the most within the search results, the "Joe Average" users will most likely select your app first.

- My 2c!

[Jacob Rhoden]

Not sure I agree with you there, as another poster put it, assuming
the product does people need and/or want the rest comes down to
marketing.

You don't think the songs in the top 50 music charts get higher than
other (well composed or not) songs, but for the marketing do you? (:

[Sean Woodhouse]

I would treat the app store as a distribution channel, and not rely on it as a marketing channel. If you can't justify 'traditional' marketing for your app then , personally, I'd choose a different market.

0.2c

Sean.

On 05/01/2010, at 3:50 PM, Oleg Kiorsak wrote:

[Oleg Kiorsak]

hmm...

I bought more apps than can fit on iPhone's "app pages" - more than twice as much to be precise (360+)
but always looked at the rating and price and even more often at "Top paid" "Top Free" "New and Noteworthy"
and "Stuff Favorites" 

(I guess your counter- argument will be that I am not "Joe Average";)

hei, here is another question that intrigues me for awhile...

how does one become a "staff favorite"...??
Is there any objective process / guideliness or it is truly subjective?
or maybe you need to have good mates at Apple Corp.?? ;)

In fairness - the apps that "staff" favores are usually quite godo, but still.. how fair is having such thing...
we are talking serious financial implicatins here... better be "audited" or somethng...

??

cheers,
O.K.

--

[Oleg Kiorsak]

Sean

I tend to think you're 100% right and this is why I am trying out "Facebook Ads" stuff...

btw, here is a worthy book right on this very kinda subject.. has many interesting ideas regarding app review portals, marketing channels (Google, Facebooks, etc) etc

http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Application-Business-Dummies-Computer/dp/0470524529/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262668360&sr=8-1

there is a kindle edition too - you can read on your iPhone ;)


cheers,
O.K.
------------------------------
And in the spriit of classic marketing - here's my signature footer "plug" again:
http://apps.okapps.net/

BUY!!!!! BUY!!!!! BUY!!!!! BUY!!!!! BUY!!!!! ;-)
----------

[Sean Woodhouse]

Polished apps fall off the charts as do popular songs.

Some people are happy chasing the next big hit, and some are actually
quite successful at it (see Tapbots and Tapulous).

I agree that you need to market your app, and I'm advocating that
developers choose apps and solutions that can sustain a marketing
budget rather than expect that they'll be able to monetise their apps
simply by throwing it on the store and hoping it gets picked up as a
staff favourite. The fundamentals haven't changed. You need to know
who your target market is and how you're going to address that market,
independent of the app store as a marketing channel.

Here's an interesting and somewhat related post on the cost of
customer acquisition I read the other day:
http://www.forentrepreneurs.com/startup-killer/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+forentrepreneurs+%28For+Entrepreneurs%29

Enjoy

Sean.

[Jacob Rhoden]

Wow, when did kindle become available in Australia? I must have missed that.

[Kyle Buttress]

Question to Oleg on the facebook ads

have they worked for you and stegou getting a good return on the cost

thanks for the book link excellent

[Sean Woodhouse]

Interesting notes on marketing effectiveness in this recent post from
Ortwin Gentz (Where To?)

http://www.futuretap.com/blog/one-year/

Cheers

Sean

>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>> Google Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
>> To post to this group, send ema
>

[Oleg Kiorsak]

First of all it is worth mentioning that, I started the facebook Ads experiment in the "peak" of holidays Jan 1st... probably not the best timing.. but this is when I have time...

and for a couple of days I was advertising a "fan page" that I created for one of my apps in facebooks

I was getting lots of "impressions" and even enough "clicks" (aka CPC) to consume my "daily budget" one can set there for a campaign...

and indeed I was actually getting some more "fans" on my app's "fan page"
_BUT_
nobody of them actually bought the damn thing (except I guess those few original fans who are actually my friends/colleagues)

i.e. - when I looked in reports in iTunesConnect vs my Facebook "fan page"I in fact can see that the only sales I got for the days of experiment were from countries OTHER that ones I got fans from...!!

LOL !!


so that proved pretty useless...
(and it seriously escapes me WHY would those 30+ strangers became a "fan" then if they didn't bother buying the app ?!! facebook is a strange place... hm...)

so last night I changed the "campaign" to not promote the silly "fan page" thing anyomore, but the actual URLs to the apps websites.. and twisted the "creative" a bit ("creative" == apparently a marketing lingo for Ad's metadata ;) dropped some countries where apparently folks have more time on they hand (to click all over facebook) then to actually buy anything (incl iPhone to star with ;)

and from what I can monitor now I did get a fair amount of clicks and "CTR" ("click through rate") has improved a bit as well...

so with much anxiety I am waiting for 01:00 am tonight when iTunesConnects report becomes availale to see whether those 100+ "clicks" actually converted in any sales...

will keep you posted if interested.. - stay tuned...


also for reference - this is a "how to" i used to get started with facebook Ads stuff:
http://zacjohnson.com/setting-up-your-first-facebook-ads-campaign/


cheers,
PS: btw, anyone feel free to find and connect with me in Facebook if curious - that's very easy with my lastname ;)

[Josh McKinnon]

Interesting discussion. Picking one point out (for now)…

On 05/01/2010, at 16:10, Oleg Kiorsak <kio...@gmail.com> wrote:

> how does one become a "staff favorite"...??
> Is there any objective process / guideliness or it is truly
> subjective?

I note that the abominable Qantas app is currently a ‘Staff
Favourite’, so that rules out any quality-based assessment.

-Josh
www.corduroy.biz

[Oliver Jones]

Excellent point. Being on the app store is just the start. That let's users get your app. It is not the end of the journey. 

The vast majority of apps I have on my phone are ones recommended by others or I saw reviews or ads for. 

A smaller set of apps were ones I saw in search results to a specific query. Eg I was looking for an app to fill a need. Then a combination of app description, reviews, and price led me to my purchasing decision. 

My advice would be to fill a legitimate need with an app and be better (or cheaper, or whayever) than everyone else in that category. It is all about positioning. What niche are you filling.

Oliver Jones

oli...@deeperdesign.com

iPhone +61 (41) 6360 775

[Oleg Kiorsak]

ok!, here's the "Facebook Ads" experiment update, for the ones interested:

there is NO evidence that those clicks translated in any sales... hm... disappointing...

narrowed down the "targeting" a bit... will let it run for another 24hours... but very very skeptical from now on...

btw, one of the adds clearly says "$2 iPhone app"... and what it does... so WHY click if you are not interested or not going  to pay for it??...

well... why click on Ads at all anyway?? ;)
- as for me, I never click on any ads anywhere, I consider them just "background" - in FB, Google, wherever...


cheers,
O.K.
http://apps.okapps.net/

[Sadat Rahman]

On 05/01/2010, at 11:38 PM, Oleg Kiorsak wrote:

well... why click on Ads at all anyway?? ;)
- as for me, I never click on any ads anywhere, I consider them just "background" - in FB, Google, wherever...

As for me, I install an "Ad Blocker" on all my browsers. ;) I cannot stand those damn annoying flash ads which chew up CPU usage - not to mention raise the temperature on my MBP! ClickToFlash FTW! :-)

[Oleg Kiorsak]

does it block the ones appearing on right hand side - like in Google, facebook etc?

and I sooo have to share this:

I spend 12+ hours online probably - and Oh, man!!!
there is not a single site in the world this days that does not currently have this the stupidest

"1 weird old tip for loosing weight without dieting" animated ad

at least in all English and Russian sites it is all all over the place...


cheers,
O.K.

--

[Mathieu Tozer]

On 04/01/2010, at 11:02 PM, Gareth Townsend wrote:

> The gold rush is over. Some people won, most lost.
>
> The Tablet (if/when it comes) could be another gold rush. Are you prepared to take on the risk?

I hope they don't add a new OS and SDK to the mix!

>
> Cheers,
> Gareth Townsend
> http://www.garethtownsend.info
> http://www.melbournecocoaheads.com
>
>
>
>

[Mathieu Tozer]

On 04/01/2010, at 11:11 PM, Sean Woodhouse wrote:

> I think it's fair to say that if you want a good chance of making a
> sustainable living off iPhone development:
>
> - write iPhone apps for people who pay you to build them
> - write (and potentially give away) iPhone apps as a value-add to a
> niche vertical SAAS
>
> Investing a whole lot of time & money into writing an app and hoping
> it'll make it big on the store is like buying a lottery ticket. I
> don't buy lottery tickets (unless it's for the 30 million draw of
> course ;-).

Hear hear!

>
> Cheers
>
> Sean.
>
> On 05/01/2010, at 3:02 PM, Gareth Townsend wrote:
>
>> The gold rush is over. Some people won, most lost.
>>
>> The Tablet (if/when it comes) could be another gold rush. Are you
>> prepared to take on the risk?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Gareth Townsend
>> http://www.garethtownsend.info
>> http://www.melbournecocoaheads.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to cocoah...@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cocoaheadsau...@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cocoaheadsau?hl=en
>> .
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
> To post to this group, send email to cocoah...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cocoaheadsau...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cocoaheadsau?hl=en.
>
>
>
>

> <IttyBittyStampEmail.jpg>

[hear...@gmail.com]

So do i.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMPORTANT -

Please consider our environment before printing this email.

This email and any attachments are confidential and may be legally privileged in which case neither is intended to be waived or lost by mistaken delivery to you. If you have received this message in error, please notify us and remove it from your system. If you are not the intended recipient, any unauthorised use is expressly prohibited. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening or sending them on.

[Mathieu Tozer]

Probably when they started selling the global edition Kindle?

[Mathieu Tozer]

Yes I tried that at MEL once and it is abominable.

[benbritten]

Actually you have been able to get the kindle for iphone app for quite
some time now. Although, now that I think about it more, i may have
gotten it in the US app store..

ok... nevermind...

On Jan 6, 12:54 am, Mathieu Tozer <mathieuto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Probably when they started selling the global edition Kindle?
>
> On 05/01/2010, at 12:32 AM, Jacob Rhoden wrote:
>
>
>
> > Wow, when did kindle become available in Australia? I must have missed that.
>
> > On 05/01/2010, at 4:16 PM, Oleg Kiorsak wrote:
>
> >> Sean
>
> >> I tend to think you're 100% right and this is why I am trying out "Facebook Ads" stuff...
>
> >> btw, here is a worthy book right on this very kinda subject.. has many interesting ideas regarding app review portals, marketing channels (Google, Facebooks, etc) etc
>

> >>http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Application-Business-Dummies-Computer/...

>
> >> there is a kindle edition too - you can read on your iPhone ;)
>
> >> cheers,
> >> O.K.
> >> ------------------------------
> >> And in the spriit of classic marketing - here's my signature footer "plug" again:
> >>http://apps.okapps.net/
>
> >> BUY!!!!! BUY!!!!! BUY!!!!! BUY!!!!! BUY!!!!! ;-)
> >> ----------
>

> >> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Sean Woodhouse <s...@ittybittyapps.com> wrote:
> >> I would treat the app store as a distribution channel, and not rely on it as a marketing channel. If you can't justify 'traditional' marketing for your app then , personally, I'd choose a different market.
>
> >> 0.2c
>
> >> Sean.
>
> >> On 05/01/2010, at 3:50 PM, Oleg Kiorsak wrote:
>
> >>> I would argue that the quality of the graphic and icon does matter a lot BUT only whilst it appears on a front page in iTunes
> >>> or on the 1st page of the category list... otherwise nobody sees it regardless whether it's pretty or not...
>
> >>> ??
>
> >>> cheers,
> >>> O.K.
>

> >>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Kyle Buttress <yamon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Hi,
>
> >>> Clearly there are many factors to the consistent selling of apps on the app store..
>
> >>> The icon and graphics are an important part of this. In a sea of applications you have a small window to catch the eye of the viewer
> >>> and good quality visuals help with that.
>
> >>> Then there is the long tail effect of the app and the usability and usefulness it provides.
>
> >>> So to keep in the context of the original question. setting a budget is one option, but being happy with the quality of the graphic work is just as important.
>
> >>> If you are after a quick buck and they are harder to find on the store then its a choice you make on the amount you spend. I like to think there there is money there but it may take a bit longer to get to your pocket.
>
> >>> It's about being useful and marketing.
>
> >>> cheers
> >>> K
>

> >>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Mark Aufflick <m...@aufflick.com> wrote:
> >>> Hi all,
>
> >>> Happy new year etc. - hope everyone has had a good break.
>
> >>> I'm wondering if people can comment on a range of costs for design
> >>> work for iPhone apps. I know, that's an impossible question, but
> >>> humour me.
>
> >>> If you're giving a designer a handful of UI screens and give them a
> >>> brief to design backgrounds, some icons, etc. I'm interested in
> >>> knowing the ballpark of what you pay (in Australia).
>
> >>> Cheers,
>
> >>> Mark.
>
> >>> --
> >>> Mark Aufflick

> >>>  contact info athttp://mark.aufflick.com/about/contact

>
> >>> --
>
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to cocoah...@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cocoaheadsau...@googlegroups.com.

> >>> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/cocoaheadsau?hl=en.

>
> >>> --
>
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to cocoah...@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cocoaheadsau...@googlegroups.com.

> >>> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/cocoaheadsau?hl=en.

>
> >>> --
>
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to cocoah...@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cocoaheadsau...@googlegroups.com.

> >>> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/cocoaheadsau?hl=en.

>
> >> --
>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to cocoah...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cocoaheadsau...@googlegroups.com.

> >> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/cocoaheadsau?hl=en.

>
> >> --
>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Australian Cocoaheads" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to cocoah...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cocoaheadsau...@googlegroups.com.

> >> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/cocoaheadsau?hl=en.

[Oleg Kiorsak]

regarding "Apple Tablet"...

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:49 AM, Mathieu Tozer <mathie...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 04/01/2010, at 11:02 PM, Gareth Townsend wrote:

> The gold rush is over. Some people won, most lost.
>
> The Tablet (if/when it comes) could be another gold rush. Are you prepared to take on the risk?

I hope they don't add a new OS and SDK to the mix!

>

I always been thinking that Apple (being smart folks) will make it so that iPhone apps would run on it...
they already have the technology (the guts of the SDK Simulator, that is.. and it does make strong sense...
even without scaling the apps to fit the larger screen...

today I stumbled upon this journalist who thinks the same:  "..Of course your iPhone apps will work on it...."

http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/wp-mobile.php?p=29044

interesting reading in itself too btw...


but surely it is most likely to be Mac OS X with "Touch" factor added to it...
so one could develop "normal" Mac OS X apps on its as well...

and the "desktop SDK" will be updated to include "touch" stuff... (maybe accelerometer and Core Location ) as well...
???

cheers,
O.K.





 

[Sean Woodhouse]

It's an absolute certainty that all iPhone apps will run on the tablet without any changes what so ever. They'd have to be absolutely crazy not to leverage the Apps store to it's fullest from day one.

They'll just 'letterbox' existing apps to 320x480. There will also be a push to get developers to make their apps cater to different sized 'windows' and eventually resolution independence. It amazes me that they didn't push resolution independence from the very start since they started introducing it in OS X, and you'd have to imagine that screen densities on devices would vary more than on the desktop. I saw a 480x800 HTC device the other day and it made the iPhone display look like a kids toy...

BTW. I reckon it'll be completely based on the iPhone stack, with multitasking added since the CPU and battery life shouldn't be so much of an issue.

Cheers

Sean.

[Oleg Kiorsak]

 

BTW. I reckon it'll be completely based on the iPhone stack, with multitasking added since the CPU and battery life shouldn't be so much of an issue.

hm... but some people were saying (well speculating) that the reason Apple took so long with this "tablet" thing (rumored for ages) that they wanted a "real OS" and now since they trimmed the bloat and legacy junk with "Snow Leopard"
excercise they finally got it....

so I'd expect a Mac OX 10.7 "Touch Leopard" or something like that... "Lion Touch" ?? ;)


cheers
O.K.
 

[benbritten]

Since we are in the mood for rampant speculation, I will jump in as
well:

I agree with Sean that it will most definitely run the current iPhone
apps, whether it is in letterbox or some other clever way.

My bets are on the fact that the tablet will really just be a bigger
badasser iPhone. Apple likes to keep control of their devices and the
user experience, and the huge success of the iPhone tells me that they
will want to continue that. I will be willing to bet that developing
for the tablet will be exactly like developing for the iPhone, only
bigger.
Apple will want to leverage the huge developer pool that has sprung up
around the iPhone and keep them going. Not to mention the single
point of purchase that goes through their servers.

In my perfect world, the tablet would be like a flat mac mini, and ran
iPhone apps as well as mac apps, but I don't think that is going to
happen.

Cheers!
-B

[Oleg Kiorsak]

now I get it... you might be right...

Apple likes the total control they excercise over iPhone and will want to leverage that on a bigger screens

so you'll only be able to install stuff via AppStore or "developer provisioning"...

also expect "newspapers and magazines" category in ITunes ;)

[Sean Woodhouse]

They already have a real OS in the iPhone :-)

I think their time and effort would have gone in to evolving Cocoa Touch and the Springboard to cater for the capabilities of the device.

These device are targeted at the broader masses than your traditional 'computer user', so I expect the software stack to look a lot more like the current iPhone than Snow Leopard. Apple have also had great success at controlling the user's purchasing experience through the Apps store, so I expect it to be front and center, as on the iPhone, rather than being part of an application, as it is in iTunes on Leopard.

Cheers

Sean.

[Nathan de Vries]

On 06/01/2010, at 11:57 AM, Sean Woodhouse wrote:
> It's an absolute certainty that all iPhone apps will run on the
> tablet without any changes what so ever.

If by "absolute certainty" you mean "wild guess", then sure :-).

I suspect (with no degree of certainty) that applications will need to
be built against a new version of the SDK and resubmitted for approval
prior to being made available on a device with a different resolution
(tablet or otherwise). The developer will likely also need to mark the
their application as compatible with the new device in iTunes Connect
when they submit the new binary.

This would provide Apple with an opportunity to purge stagnant
applications and ensure the new device has fresh, compelling
applications. Bear in mind that *very* few applications resize
correctly when launched during a call or while tethering is enabled,
and many applications hard-code status bar sizes etc., so I don't
think it's as easy as you think to provide a widget-style
compatibility mode.

Cheers,

Nathan de Vries

[Mathieu Tozer]

I think that would be the nicest approach, with floating iPhone apps as floating wigets

- Mathieu

[Mathieu Tozer]

- Mathieu

What is each widget was exactly 320x480?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nathan de Vries

[Nathan de Vries]

On 06/01/2010, at 12:45 PM, Mathieu Tozer wrote:
> What is each widget was exactly 320x480?

How would you account for the status bar? Keep it in? What information
would you put in it? Just make it a black band? What about
applications that use a semi-transparent status bar and draw
underneath it? Seems like a cludgy solution to me.

I agree that it would be great, but I don't think it's absolutely
certain. I don't even think it's likely, but I could be wrong on that
front.

Cheers,

Nathan de Vries

[Kyle Buttress]

i think any status / navigation bar info / use is directly related to the app and can be kept in the confines of a widget or even implemented in a similar way to quicktime x on snow leopard, there when it has focus otherwise fades away

what are your thoughts on voice control as a supplement to navigation etc for the tablet

[funk_e]

Hi All,

I am in need of a good piece of software for tracking my time spent on various projects... doing freelance work means I can work on many projects throughout the day and I was wondering what you all use to keep track of the hours spent on each to help you keep accurate timesheets?

Mac or iPhone app I don't mind :-)

Thanks!

Matt

[Kyle Buttress]

haven't used it however Billings app is getting some good reports.

has desktop and iphone versions

[David Morrison]

TimeLog4

http://www.mediaatelier.com/TimeLog4/

Even keeps track of what apps you were using incase you forgot to start the timer.

Has an iPhone app that syncs with the desktop version.

David

> Matt--

[Sadat Rahman]

Check out Jobs (Time Sheet + Tracking) by Bjango.

On 06/01/2010, at 12:59 PM, funk_e wrote:

> Matt--

[Mathieu Tozer]

- Mathieu

On 05/01/2010, at 8:51 PM, Nathan de Vries <nat...@atnan.com> wrote:

> On 06/01/2010, at 12:45 PM, Mathieu Tozer wrote:
>> What is each widget was exactly 320x480?
>
> How would you account for the status bar? Keep it in? What
> information would you put in it? Just make it a black band? What
> about applications that use a semi-transparent status bar and draw
> underneath it? Seems like a cludgy solution to me.

Do you mean the naviation bar? Each app widget would just have it's own.

If the app draws underneth it, so what?

>
> I agree that it would be great, but I don't think it's absolutely
> certain. I don't even think it's likely, but I could be wrong on
> that front.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nathan de Vries

[Nick Forge]

I use On The Job. It has no where near the number of features that Billings has, but I found the Billings UI very frustrating when doing even some very basic tasks. I'm amazed Billings won an ADA - a lot of the nice looking UI doesn't actually make the app easier to use in my opinion, and in some cases makes it worse (at least for my usage patterns).

Cheers,
Nick

On 06/01/2010, at 12:59 PM, funk_e wrote:

> Matt--

[Matt Gallagher]

I normally use the somewhat basic Time Tracker.app. It's free and, uh, works. That's about it.

Cheers,
Matt Gallagher.

> Matt--

[Sean Woodhouse]

I use Numbers :-)

[Cameron Barrie]

I use On The Job; however I've always thought it could track the applications I used... Might have to take a look at TimeLog4

Cameron Barrie: Developer at Snepo
contact | cam...@snepo.com | 02 9281 1966

[Rob Keniger]

On 06/01/2010, at 12:18 PM, Cameron Barrie wrote:

> I use On The Job; however I've always thought it could track the applications I used... Might have to take a look at TimeLog4

We use hosted FogBugz for our project management, bug tracking and time tracking. It's free for up to three users and is really excellent, however obviously it's a web app and can't do anything like track how much time you spend in each application.

--
Rob Keniger

[Sean Woodhouse]

On 06/01/2010, at 12:36 PM, Nathan de Vries wrote:

> On 06/01/2010, at 11:57 AM, Sean Woodhouse wrote:
>> It's an absolute certainty that all iPhone apps will run on the
>> tablet without any changes what so ever.
>
> If by "absolute certainty" you mean "wild guess", then sure :-).

My wife understands that whenever I make assertions like that I'm most
likely speaking out my arse, so it's easy to forget that you guys
might not already know that. Take everything I say with a large grain
of salt. I am speculating based on what *I* think is most likely.

> I suspect (with no degree of certainty) that applications will need
> to be built against a new version of the SDK and resubmitted for
> approval prior to being made available on a device with a different
> resolution (tablet or otherwise).

That's gonna create another bottleneck in Apple's approval pipeline,
but hey, maybe they're up for it. They'll have another bottle neck
around the 4.0 release anyway.

> This would provide Apple with an opportunity to purge stagnant
> applications and ensure the new device has fresh, compelling
> applications.

I dunno, I was looking forward to running iFart in all it's widescreen
tablet glory...

> Bear in mind that *very* few applications resize correctly when
> launched during a call or while tethering is enabled, and many
> applications hard-code status bar sizes etc., so I don't think it's
> as easy as you think to provide a widget-style compatibility mode.

True, but I think there are ways around that, as others have commented.

Cheers

Sean.

[Chris Lloyd]

I can't recommend Harvest enough. Does good time tracking, has a good Dashboard widget + iphone app. It also does really good invoices. http://www.getharvest.com/

If you are just looking at doing time tracking and not invoicing Freckle is awesome: http://letsfreckle.com/ 

2010/1/6 Rob Keniger <r...@menumachine.com>

[Sadat Rahman]

On 06/01/2010, at 2:57 PM, Chris Lloyd wrote:

I can't recommend Harvest enough. Does good time tracking, has a good Dashboard widget + iphone app. It also does really good invoices. http://www.getharvest.com/

If you are just looking at doing time tracking and not invoicing Freckle is awesome: http://letsfreckle.com/ 

Bah! Humbug! So many choices to evaluate now. I think I will just stick with my Numbers spreadsheet (has worked well for me so far).

[Lachie]

RescueTime is good for tracking what apps and sites you're using...
and thus handy for tracking time

:lachie
http://plus2.com.au
http://smartbomb.com.au
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lachie/

[Nathan de Vries]

On 06/01/2010, at 1:09 PM, Mathieu Tozer wrote:
> Do you mean the naviation bar? Each app widget would just have it's
> own.

No, I mean the 20px status bar that's visible in most applications.
Most applications are actually 320x460 or 480x300. I guess you could
have a compatibility mode that strips the status bar if it's opaque,
or doesn't render it if it's translucent.

At a technical level it doesn't really matter, because as you've said
these are all solvable problems. Disregarding my tangent on what would
be involved technically, I still think that we're going to see a
similar resubmission process like we saw with 2.x → 3.0 → 3.1.

Personally, I'm hoping for some kind of announcement & SDK beta prior
to June/July so that I can make the most of the lab time at WWDC.

Cheers,

Nathan

[Jacob Rhoden]

Since we are on the topic, I have found no software that can help me so far (I think I need to write one myself)

I need time keeping software that pops up and reminds me to enter your data, ie every 15 minutes or so I need to be reminded to write down what I am doing otherwise I forget to put it in.

Yes where I work requires very granular reporting of what I am doing with my time but my brain seems to resist the idea of remembering to record every time i switch project, I can do billable work for as many as 5 different projects in one day.

Thanks,

Jacob

[Kyle Buttress]

why not apple script and growl or something on a repeat timer

[Cameron Barrie]

The option to have it either scrap from commit messages in my SCM( git of course ) or use a post-commit hook to push into the app would be pretty cool.

[David Morrison]

Yeah... TimeLog4 does it.

In the preferences there is a setting under timer that will pop up a reminder every x minutes or popup a reminder every x minutes when you arent logging anything (see attached screenshot). The first option would suit you.

[Matthew Winter]

Hi,

I suspect that the Apple Tablet/Slate thingy would be based on the next generation of iPhone OS, i.e. 4.0. As I would hope for the size and functionality of the Tablet we will start to see things like multi-tasking brought back in. I would also hope that what they build into the Tablet version of the OS will remain in the 4th generation iPhone. This would then allow Apple to develop multiple versions of the iPhone with different screen resolutions. How about an iPhone Nano, with the same screen resolution as we have now, but only 2.5" display size. This would then allow for a higher resolution screen in the same 3.5" display form factor for the 4th gen iPhone.

All of which hinges on one thing, being able to build apps to cater for multiple screen sizes.

Expecting to have to rebuild and resubmit apps for SDK 4.0, is probably a definite. They did it after all for SDK 3.0 with not to much of a problem. As long as we get enough notice and Apple gives priority to SDK 4.0 apps submitted, it should all work out fine.

Which is why I can not see a tablet being released this quarter. It will get announced though, as they need to release the SDK 4.0 beta.

All of which is speculation, built up from many of the rumour posts on the web.

Cheers

Matt

[Jacob Rhoden]

There are so many different software packages, I got sick of installing them, testing them, and then giving up. I'll give this one a go, thanks!

As for applescript+growl, I would rather write an objective c app (: My work colleagues wrote one for windows that pops up and asks, then feeds the data into our time tracking software, ultimately I will need to write something that does the same.

Thanks,
Jacob

On 06/01/2010, at 4:10 PM, David Morrison wrote:

> Yeah... TimeLog4 does it.
>
> In the preferences there is a setting under timer that will pop up a reminder every x minutes or popup a reminder every x minutes when you arent logging anything (see attached screenshot). The first option would suit you.
>
>
>

> You can download a trial from the website and see if this suits.
>
> David

>
>
> On 06/01/2010, at 3:44 PM, Jacob Rhoden wrote:
>

> <PastedGraphic-1.png>--

[Mathieu Tozer]

So what's the summary of the last thread :-P

[Sadat Rahman]

On 07/01/2010, at 1:16 AM, Mathieu Tozer wrote:

> So what's the summary of the last thread :-P

"Whatever Works!" :-P

[Mathieu Tozer]

I'm being lazy and was hoping for a list of apps. I'll do that later on and post the list.

[Rob Keniger]

On 07/01/2010, at 12:23 AM, Mathieu Tozer wrote:

> I'm being lazy and was hoping for a list of apps. I'll do that later on and post the list.

I've been trying out RescueTime since it was mentioned here and it's really good. Works as advertised and they have a free version. Can't complain.

--
Rob Keniger

[Oleg Kiorsak]

Hi again

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Josh McKinnon <jo...@corduroy.biz> wrote:

I note that the abominable Qantas app is currently a ‘Staff
Favourite’, so that rules out any quality-based assessment.

 
I just stumbled upon another "gem" in "Staff Faviorites" in AU store
- an app called "Cry Translator"
look it app:
- outrageous pricing ($36)
- ONLY negative reviews (indicating that it just won't work, and the whole concept is somewhat false)
- deceptive and potentially dangerous (if parents are dumb enough to trust and rely on it)

Howcome such a heap of junk becomes "staff favorite".. did these "staff" members
really pay $36 and test it on their babies?!? ;)
OR
is it because some decent money seems to be thrown behind this app on a shameless PR campaign - a glance at links to "reviews" on

http://www.crytranslator.com/referencesandreviews.html

illustrates that... interestingly most of the reviews just reiterate vendor
claims in a "a la press-release" fashion taking it as truth... no actual "review" as such...
media just so sincerely convinced that iPhone is such a magical device it can do anything... no proof required...

but surely ought to give some credibility to this piece of info (from app description)

"INNOVATION PRIZE AWARDED.
In the year 2006 the Government of Ballearic Islands awarded the Prize for the Best Innovation Project of Menorca and second of Ballearic Islands."


LOL!! ;)


cheers,
O.K
PS:
there was another "super hit" earlier this week topping all the charts in all appstores world wide- "Mobile Tracker"
- at least that was "free"... but it was a great demo how surprisingly "naive" (in lieu of a more technically precise word ;)
the majority of iPhone users are... if anyone noticed that app earlier (apparently Apple had some sense and pulled it out by now) would know what I mean...