Referring to teachable moments

[Loch Kilparick]

Here are my thoughts on your teachable moments and ethnic rules. We all need to remember one thing what people do is their own business we have no right to tell them how they enjoy their outdoor time or what they're doing. the rules you keep bringing up are not any kind of law of any kind they are just simple rules. Always love how everybody goes after people with cameras ,that we're doing so much great harm to the birds, but I never hear anybody saying anything about banding  birds, how is that not the most terrible thing happening to birds. How would you like it somebody showed up your house throw a netyou over then you manhandled  you in a bag, drag you around for a little while, go hang a hook for a little while. then we're going  to take you out of the bag ,we're going to fill you up a little bit .I going to see if you female or male then see how much fat you have .and then maybe we'll take a couple feathers maybe some blood, but that's okay that doesn't bother the birds at all I call b*******.                                          Loch Kilpatrick 

[Susan Rosine]

I'm trying hard not to be extremely rude in responding to this post. 

Susan Rosine 

Volunteer for Bird Conservancy of the Rockies

Currently at the Barr Lake Banding Station, Adams County 

On Fri, Sep 5, 2025, 12:07 PM Loch Kilparick <loch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here are my thoughts on your teachable moments and ethnic rules. We all need to remember one thing what people do is their own business we have no right to tell them how they enjoy their outdoor time or what they're doing. the rules you keep bringing up are not any kind of law of any kind they are just simple rules. Always love how everybody goes after people with cameras ,that we're doing so much great harm to the birds, but I never hear anybody saying anything about banding  birds, how is that not the most terrible thing happening to birds. How would you like it somebody showed up your house throw a netyou over then you manhandled  you in a bag, drag you around for a little while, go hang a hook for a little while. then we're going  to take you out of the bag ,we're going to fill you up a little bit .I going to see if you female or male then see how much fat you have .and then maybe we'll take a couple feathers maybe some blood, but that's okay that doesn't bother the birds at all I call b*******.                                          Loch Kilpatrick 

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[Evan]

There are teachable moments and clearly there are also unteachable people.

Evan Carlson

Pueblo

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[David Suddjian]

This thread and the one that spawned it are within the purview of CoBirds - pertaining to Colorado Birds and birding, but folks, please refrain from any rudeness  explicit or implied - in public posts to the CoBirds list, so the discussion may continue in a measured manner, if there is such a desire. If you have something substantive to say on the topic, that is fine. 

David Suddjian

Littleton, CO

list moderator

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[T. Luke George]

Loch,

Bird banding provides a wealth of scientific information about birds that is used to guide conservation efforts. Photos provide no actionable conservation information. You are correct that being captured and banded is difficult for the birds but those costs are balanced by the information that is gathered. Banders have struggled with the ethical issues surrounding bird banding for decades, and have developed a set of practices to reduce potential harm to the birds. You can read the Bird Banders Safety Handbook to get more information. 

Without bird banding we would still be in the dark about basic information such as where birds migrate, how long they survive, how many there are (this is especially true for waterfowl) and how natural and anthropogenic factors are affecting their populations. Every time I band birds I think about the potential harm that I am causing and whether the information that is being collected offsets that harm. At universities, all projects that involve handling birds must be reviewed by the Animal Care and Use Committee. These committees include biologists, economists and experts in animal ethics. The committee evaluates the costs and benefits of each project and will prevent a project from moving forward (or insist that different methods are used) if they decide that the harm is too great or the benefit  too small. CSU has some of the best known animal ethicists in the nation and they aren't afraid to stop a project if they think the costs outweigh the benefits. I invite you to visit a banding station to learn more about this essential tool in avian conservation.

Luke George

On Fri, Sep 5, 2025 at 1:38 PM Evan <emcar...@gmail.com> wrote:

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​T. Luke George, PhD

Master Instructor, ​Colorado ​State University

Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Conservation Biology

Wagar 110

970-491-3311 (o)

P​rofessor Emeritus, Humboldt State University

707-499-4053 (c)

t.luke...@gmail.com

"what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" Mary Oliver

[Loch Kilparick]

Hello Luke

I understand where you're coming from on banding . I too have worked a banding station for several months out at Barr Lake, so I do know what goes on in the banding world. My point being it's wrong to photograph people and put their photos out on the internet so they can be ridiculed is not the right thing to do somebody over a photo . Is ridiculous.. and then trying to tell us photographers we cause more damage than anybody. Now back to banding, I know it serves those purposes. but when I see birds that have more than one band on them that's ridiculous, piping plover in case where I've seen then with four bands and two flags on them, how is that healthy for any bird. that is when it gets ridiculous, and I understand I'm sure you have a reasoning for all those bands and flags but I don't see how that does more damage than photographing a bird.

Thank you for reaching out and discussing this with me I mean no ill will to anybody.

Loch kilpatrick 

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[Ted Floyd]

Hey, all. Thanks to Moderator Suddjian for guidance on how we might comport ourselves in this interesting dialog. I'd like to address this, from T. Luke George:

"Photos provide no actionable conservation information."

Here is a link to more than 1,000 scientific papers arising from the eBird/Macaulay database, many of which have major conservation components, and many of which rely critically on photographic evidence to support the results and analysis:

tinyurl.com/eBird-science

Here is a personal favorite of mine:

tinyurl.com/Pyle-Macaulay-hummers

The author, Peter Pyle, is perhaps the most legendary figure in contemporary bird-banding, but I also know from extensive correspondence with Peter that he considers the immense photographic Macaulay Library to be a game-changer and a quantum-leap in how we make sense of bird populations.

Van Remsen, one of the greatest ornithologists of all time, although a sometime eBird critic (😁), likewise considers the eBird/Macaulay photographic database, to the extent that it is properly curated, to be a major breakthrough in ornithological science.

There's more. I imagine every one of us has been touched or affected or otherwise inspired by powerful bird photography—and that leads inevitably to conservation awareness and conservation action. Maybe we, in the relatively rarefied air of the Colorado field ornithological community, don't really "need" any more bird photos to reinforce our passion for bird conservation. But think of all the kids watching nature documentaries, or smiling at Instagram reels of baby owls, or scrolling through the endless parade of magnificent images at Macaulay, or, yes, maybe getting just a bit close to, oh what the heck, a Wood Stork, to get the perfect five-star photo to share with their friends. We need massively more, not less, of that.

By the way, if you haven't seen the eBird/Macaulay database in a little while, check it out:

tinyurl.com/Macaulay-photos

Also astonishing are the tens of millions of bird photos in the iNaturalist database:

tinyurl.com/iNat-photos

Ted Floyd
Lafayette, Boulder Co.

P. s. I got kinda close to this guy a bit earlier this afternoon:

inaturalist.org/observations/311788704

😉

I also rescued him from a heavily used trail, with dogs and bicycles galore. But, before doing that, I showed him to a young human and her adult companion—and talked a little bit with them about reptile biology and conservation.

[Susan Rosine]

Loch,

Lots of research was done to make sure the bands do not interfere with the bird's natural behavior and health.

Yes, there are reasons for every single band. It bothers the bird no more than earrings or rings bother humans. 

No one is saying a bird can't be photographed, but we are saying don't get so close to the bird that you risk it needlessly using energy/ calories to fly away from you. 

I wouldn't be thrilled if you crept up close to me with a camera pointed at me. 

Luke,Thank you for a great response, which I was not able to do. 

Susan Rosine

Brighton, Adams County 

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