1971 Honda CB450

[Thom Glick]

Thought it might be worth starting a new thread. Here are some pics I snapped today of the bike.

[Wade Dunham]

Thom:

The bike looks great! Aren't you glad you didn't buy that ratty 750? :-)

Wade Dunham

[Thom Glick]

Without a doubt. Even with the delay in getting the bike on the street, I'm feeling pretty lucky to have nabbed this thing.

Thom

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[Mr. Ed]

Nice bike for a great price!  Makes me wish I was smaller!  Speedo and tach are backwards. 

[Thom Glick]

I thought something seemed odd.

 

Thom

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 7:29 PM, Mr. Ed <eddi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Nice bike for a great price!  Makes me wish I was smaller!  Speedo and tach are backwards. 

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[Tom Havenar]

Wade,

When you coming to Monday's meetings of the great minds?? Haven't talked to you since you wouldn't trade for my Ascot??

Be good to see you!

TomH.

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[Wade Dunham]

Tom:

Soon, I hope. The weather earlier this spring kept me away, then my
grandson's baseball season (supposed to end this week, but I hear they
are in tournaments GRRR!), and the past week or so getting ready for
my daughter's baby shower at my house. If all goes well, maybe next
Monday, fingers crossed. Thanks for asking!

Wade

[Thom Glick]

Okay, still having a problem. Am I looking at the exploded view on Bikebandit correctly? Part #9, the clutch rod, that's what should be fitting into the actuator arm cavity and butting up against the ball bearing, correct?

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/1971-honda-cl450k4/o/m9153#sch395250

I've attached a picture of the end of the clutch rod and there seems to be a ball bearing attached permanently to the end of the rod, which seems wrong considering the exploded view and belief that the ball should be loose in the actuator arm cavity. I wasn't able to get Wade's replacement cover to fit onto the bike, seemingly, because there was one too many ball bearings. So I reattached the original one, after wrestling to reshape the cable catch into a shape that would hold onto the cable end, and tried to adjust the cable tension using the clutch adjuster and cable end adjusters. No luck.

With the Suzuki, and other bikes I've ridden, when I pulled in on the clutch lever I could actually feel the clutch actuate. Regardless of tension to the cable, on the Honda, it just feels like I'm squeezing the lever without a mechanism on the other end, like the parts are fixed and non-moving, if that makes sense.

I'm curious if this cable might not be specific to this bike. Could the length of the cable be a factor? Thoughts? 

Thom

[Wade Dunham]

Thom:

The attached photo shows the rod that came out of the motor I took the
case from. No ball on the end of it. The rod is now in my car if you
need it. ;-)

Wade Dunham

[Thom Glick]

Update: I fiddled some more and got the clutch adjusted enough to where I could put it in gear without the bike creeping or stalling right away. So, I tossed on the helmet and took it for a spin. I'm hoping I just didn't warm it up enough; it stalled as I let off the throttle to come to stops, every stop. It started right up each time though with one kick and a throttle twist. I think the battery is garbage, so I'm curious if that might be the cause of that.

The clutch is still off. It's adjusted pretty loosely and I have to pull it in way too far to actuate the mechanism, take off is a little better. I'm still curious about this ball/ball on the end of the rod.

And, I think if I want to maintain nice relationships with my neighbors I might have to swap out these pipes for something quieter... so if anyone is interested in a swap, let me know.

Thom

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Thom Glick <thom...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Thom Glick]

Couldn't hurt to try it out, right. Did you see my update post about getting it adjusted enough to take it for a test spin?

If you don't feel like swinging thru Downtown again, though, I'll have a car this Sunday and Monday. My girlfriend is going over seas for work, so I can take advantage of her vehicle. Should I nab anything else from you, too, just in case?

Thom

[Tom Graham]

The ball in the adjuster mechanism rides against the ball end on the push rod.
Ball to ball, so to speak.

[ian martin]

get that clutch problem sorted out before you start jumping to other things. sounds like the clutch is not engaging all the way. unless you are in neutral when you are stopping. then there is another issue.

get that rod from wade, then let me know and i will stop by and let you compare clutch pull with my 450 (for point of reference).

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On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Thom Glick <thom...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[ian martin]

have to say negative on that. there should only be one ball.  the end of the rod that rides against the ball will have a slight indentation in it. any rounded side will go against the pressure plate on the other end of the bike. 2 balls will make it too long.

- Show quoted text -

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Tom Graham <tomte...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The ball in the adjuster mechanism rides against the ball end on the push rod.
Ball to ball, so to speak.

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[Thom Glick]

Balls.

It stalled in gear and in neutral. Pretty much as soon as I let off the throttle. Is it possible that's the battery/charging system? There wasn't enough juice to use the push button starter; I had to kick it. But, it did start right back up with a kick or two, but wanted constant throttle or it would die again.

Thom

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[Tom Graham]

Hi Ian,

I don't have a 450 but isn't the end of the push rod 'round' where it contacts
the ball in the adjuster? That's what I meant.

Thom,

A simple field test for the charging system is to slow idle the engine with the
brights on, hit the brake too so the system really has a current load. A
throttle blip should show the headlight getting brighter immediately. No
brighter, no charging.

Tom

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[Tom Graham]

A common problem with all old bikes is a blocked or plugged idle jet. If the
engine never idled when you got it then the carbs might never have been cleaned
properly. But maybe some dirt found it's way to the clean carbs and blocked the
idle jet. Did the engine idle when you bought the bike? Here is an easy and
quick trick I use.

Pull out the mixture screw. First count the number of turns in to LIGHTLY seat
the screw so you know the adjustment.

Stick the little tube from a can of spray carb cleaner into the hole and blast
and idle jet blocking dirt back to the float bowl. Do the other side and come
back after the carb cleaner has worked for a minute and blast a second time.

Install and adjust the mixture screws to the initial setting.

Fire her up.

You may also drain the float bowl through a paper towel to see if any dirt
comes out. Throw the filtered gas back in the tank.

[Wade Dunham]

Tom:

Ian's right, the pushrod is flat with a small indentation for the ball
on the adjuster end, and rounded on the pressure plate end.

Thom:

I'll drop it off for you on the way home from work today. It's not a
big deal. If you find that you are in need of other parts, let me
know. You should be in good shape as far as the clutch goes, unless
there is something drastically wrong.

Are the idle speed screws on the carbs contacting the stops when you
let off the throttle? If not, you will need to adjust those.

Wade Dunham

[ian martin]

Thom,

If you are free, after wade gets the rod to you, i can stop by and bring my manual and we can get you sorted out.

ian

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[Tom Graham]

Thom, check to see if your rod is in backwards.

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[Thom Glick]

Tom: I hate it when my rod is in backward. I'll check that out when I get home. Considering the exploded view, via Bikebandit, it doesn't look like the rod should have a ball fixed to either end. It should look like the rod that Wade provided a picture of. Oh and the bike idled fine when I picked it up, but during the 3 hours when the seller was trying to adjust the clutch, he kept push button starting it until it finally wouldn't push button start. Now the push button start won't fire up the bike, but the kick start will. Still think it's the carbs?

 

Wade: I'm going to owe you big time for all this delivering of parts. I feel like I should leave some milk and cookies out or something... get it? Cause it's like Christmas morning when I come home to find motorcycle parts waiting for me.

 

Ian: This is the part where I finally admit my dark hidden secret; I don't have a garage. As Wade probably saw, I have a relatively large (for German Village) enclosed yard/patio type space, enclosed by a privacy fence. So, the bike can be locked up, but not kept fully from the elements, which means I can only work on it when the weather cooperates. I think it's supposed to storm again this evening. If it holds off, I would welcome the assistance... but I'm also excited at the opportunity to just jump in and force myself to figure this stuff out.

 

Thom

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[Wade Dunham]

Thom:

When you remove the rod that's currently in the engine, compare the
length to the one I will drop off this evening. I'm curious about
that.

Have you charged the battery since you brought it home? I have a
Battery Tender you can borrow, but I don't have it with me. It sounds
like you should do Tom's field test for charging or hook up a
multimeter to it.

Thom, you must be a patient fellow. I think you said that you waited
an hour and a half for the seller of the 750 to work on that bike, and
3 hours for the seller to work on the 450? I probably would have been
on my way long before that.

Wade Dunham

[Tom Graham]

There is a way that two piece valves are made. The stem of the valve spins into
the head of the valve and it is welded by friction. Weird things happen. Maybe
the ball is welded to the end of the rod? {8^o

Thom, you gotta find a Honda 450 forum.

You can field check the charging as I detailed before. Put a battery charger on
it until you get the bike running. A bike battery is small and a starter motor
uses a bunch of current. It wouldn't take long to kill a battery and the weak
motorcycle charging systems take a long time at highway rpm to get the battery
charged. This will quickly show if low battery is the idle problem.

I could tell you what was the problem if I was there. Still, no matter what the
problem, file away the quick carb cleaning trick because I don't see anyone
else advocating it and it can save a bunch of time. Example: My SR500 has never
had the carb off. The many year old varnish plugged idle jet that kept it from
starting was cleaned out as I detailed in about 5 minutes by spraying carb
cleaner into the mixture screw hole. Lucky me.

The spark plugs are going to suffer while you sort out your engine. They might
get carbon fouled because the engine is never run hard enough to get them
clean. You can go a number hotter on the plugs and this will burn off the
carbon at lower speeds.

Run high octane pump premium to save your engine from detonation damage.

Kitchens, hallways and dining rooms are actually indoor motorcycle shops.

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[Thom Glick]

This is great stuff; I will definitely be cataloging all these procedures. And, I remembered your recommendation on fuel from when I had the Suzuki GT, so I planned to keep it up. $4 a gallon doesn't seem so bad when the bike gets nearly 50 mpg (I hope that stat is accurate). As soon as I got home with the bike, Sunday, I set up an account on the hondatwins forum (www.hondatwins.net) and have already been digging through their past threads. You guys are quicker with responses, just so you know. I also frequent the SOHC forum (www.sohc4.net, because of the CB350F, which I hope to put some time into this weekend) and the cafe racer forum (www.caferacer.net). Additionally, I have a generic repair your motorcycle book and a restore your vintage motorcycle book, which I need to spend more time with.

 

I need to acquire a manual for the bike and a battery tender. I think it's time I owned a battery tender. I should probably pick up a pile of spare fuses and spark plugs too. And, as for work space, I might need to overhaul my cellar/basement so that I can work in there over the winter as we don't have any hallways. We bought the most ridiculous house, not anticipating that I would get into motorcycles. It's a one room house with a lofted second floor bedroom space. No closets either.

 

And, Wade, yes I am a patient person. My patience though is also attached to my refusal to give up on stuff, so particularly on Sunday, I'd already paid for the bike. And, it is a beautiful bike and really covers most of the wants from my list. I wasn't going to ask for my money back, but given that my girlfriend is not a patient person, I probably should have called that tow truck earlier than I did.

 

Thom

 

 

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[Thom Glick]

I think the battery is dead... but the neutral light is coming on. At the moment neither the push button nor kick are starting the bike.

The clutch rods are the same length, but the one with the ball is one ball longer.

My friend Dave came over to admire the bike, see if he could help me out with adjustments, and give me a hard time for buying another old bike. We got everything put back together, made a bunch of adjustments and the clutch still feels off, but I'm not sure that it's not adjusted properly. It works, but the tension is in a weird spot. I might need someone who's got more experience with this machine to feel it out for me. 

So we had the bike running for most of the evening and were able to address the idling issue. It was indeed the idle screw adjustment, which is odd, because the bike was running fine when I bought it and I don't think anyone has adjusted the screws since purchase. Getting adjustments sync'd up wasn't as much effort as I expected, but there's still an issue. We got it adjusted to sit about 1000-1200 rpms, but if I zing the throttle it'll hover up around 3000 and doesn't seem to want to come back down. Check to confirm that the throttle was returning all the way. Could this be debris caught in the jets?

I'm hoping the starting issue is with the battery. I'm planning to pick a new one up hopefully tomorrow or this weekend, along with a tender, spark plugs and fuses. I'll take a look at impact drivers as I know that part is coming soon. I found a set of used, but not holed or abraded, 1969 CB450 stock pipes; I might try to get them. They have some surface rust, but I'm assuming I can sand that down and maybe do some high temperature paint and wrap them. The sound of the current open pipes is just to beastly for me... but my girlfriend loves it... so who knows.

And again, big thank you to Wade for now making two trips to drop off parts and feed my obsession.

[Thom Glick]

And, is $350 too much for a 1970 set of stock exhaust? I'm also seeing a stock CL exhaust for similar price. Think it would be a headache to mount the CL pipes on the CB?

Thom

[Wade Dunham]

For me, the stock exhaust would have to be nearly perfect to shell out
$350, but then again, you don't exactly trip over nice 40 year old
exhaust systems everyday...

The CL exhaust mounts to the left upper shock mount, and to the engine
of course. Assuming the CB shock mount is in the same location
relative to the engine as the CL, it's an easy swap. I don't know if
it is. Worst case is that you would have to make a bracket from the CB
shock mount to the CL exhaust. I'll take some measurements on my son's
CL, and you can compare them to your CB. We have found that there are
a lot of small differences between the CB and CL, so I wouldn't assume
anything!

Wade Dunham

[Tom Graham]

I'd think about a set of Commando mufflers from www.mikesxs.net or a set of
Dunstall clones like Ian has on his 450. Brand shiny new and cheap. The
Dunstalls still might be too loud unless you can pack them as full as possible.
I used stainless steel scrub pads the last time I packed my Triumph's Dunstalls
and the sound is much muted but not quiet.

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[Thom Glick]

Cheapest: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/69-honda-cb-450-factory-exhaust-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZalgoQ3dLVIQ26ituQ3dUCIQ26otnQ3d5Q26poQ3dLVIQ26psQ3d63Q26clkidQ3d872285985538804326QQ_trksidZp5197Q2em7QQitemZ250843332818

 

Better: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300570967449&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

 

The CL exhaust is being sold as separate pieces, but is in a condition inbetween the cheaper and better condition CB pipes. Still think the aftermarket stuff is a better way to go?

 

Messing with exhaust fit is completely new to me. I think Bikebandit has some Supertrapp mufflers, but I'm not sure how to tell if they'll fit the head pipes currently on the bike. My friend Dave seems to think that the head pipes might be original but have probably been cut. I think the head pipes terminate right under the foot pegs. I'll pull up a schematic and see if that helps clarify things. With the current pipes, both the center and side stands bang against the pipes when I put them away. I see the XS pipe site's replicas offer rubber stoppers to help with this. I'm guessing pipe fit is mostly based on the diameter of the end of the head pipe? And, if it'll fit the various protuberances of the lower part of the bike.

 

I'm running out to Iron Pony after work to pick up a new battery (and spark plugs, etc etc). Before I get my hopes up, could the not starting issue be something else?

 

And, does anyone have any experience using one of the replacement clutch plate kits with the kevlar plates?

 

Thom

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[Wade Dunham]

Thom:

The hanging idle sounds like you are running too lean, and/or have a
vacuum leak. How many turns out are the mixture screws? If they are
more than about 3 turns out, and they make no difference in how the
bike runs, you probably need to up the sizes of the slow and main
jets. The aftermarket exhaust you have would make a difference. What
air cleaners are you running (stock, pods, etc.)? I don't know of a
good local source for these jets, maybe someone else can let us know
if there is one? Dime City has a good selection of these jets, but you
may have to buy several sizes of each to experiment with until
you get it right. The mains ($4 ea.) aren't bad, but the slow jets are
$12 ea. It could get expensive, but you could probably sell the
unneeded jets pretty easily.

You can test for a vacuum leak by spraying carb cleaner a little bit
at a time around the joints where the carb holders attach to the head,
where the carbs attach to the carb holders, and at the throttle shafts
where they come through the carb bodies. If the engine speed changes,
you have found your leak.

The early 450 exhaust may work, but I don't know for sure. You might
post a message on Hondatwins to ask that question. The CL exhaust may
be your best bet if it's nice and not too pricey, and it would look
cool as hell. Jetting would probably be easier with the CL pipes as
well.

Sounds like you are getting closer. Keep plugging away!

Wade Dunham

[Thom Glick]

The CL pipes would be about $350 for the whole thing, but the seller, on ebay, is selling the exhaust system in pieces. I might go for it. Nothing like adding to my credit card debt right? According to the hondatwins forum, the jetting was the same for the CB and the CL, so I'm assuming that whatever the seller was telling me about the bike having been rejetted was untrue. If I need a bracket fabricated or help adapting this pipe so that it'll mount to the bike, can you guys help me out? Hopefully this won't be too difficult.

 

I'll keep you posted. Haha - just realized that I'd rather spend $350 on a different exhaust than $30 on jets. Something is wrong with me.

 

Thom

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[Wade Dunham]

I'll take a couple of measurements on my son's CL when I get home from
work. You can compare them to your bike before you buy the CL pipes if
you want.

Wade Dunham

[Thom Glick]

Sounds good. I'm still negotiating with the seller to sell me the parts as a lot rather then in pieces... trying to get a better price too. The pipes look good except the top muffler has a spot where it looks like it was dragged across pavement. The heat sheilds look to be in perfect condition.

 

Thom

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[Thom Glick]

Seller said they'd give me the whole lot for $340, including shipping, for the CL exhaust. So, $10 off.

 

Thom

[Thom Glick]

And, may have spoke too soon, again. Here's the post for the lower muffler for the CL. It seems to be the worst off of the parts. Redeemable?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350469249989&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Thom

[Wade Dunham]

Thom:

That is a significant amount off if you add up the separate shipping
costs. That said, if you are referring to the pipes in eBay
#120740551292, the description says "Them mufflers have holes. Like
90% of them. They could be repaired. The baffels are shot and rattle
around inside one. I've seen them split and rebuilt, but it's a
chore." If this is the set you are referring to, I'd stay away from
"them mufflers. :-)

Wade Dunham

[Wade Dunham]

That (the whole deal) seems like too much money for something that
needs significant repair.

Wade Dunham

[Thom Glick]

I might see if I can talk them down further. Just curious. How loud are CL pipes without the mufflers? Can the head pipes be packed to quiet them? I've seen some neat cafe racer builds using CL headers without mufflers. I'm guessing that option might not solve my jetting issue.

 

Oh, and I saw that 'them mufflers' ad... that is not the one I'm looking at... unless you think going with just the head pipes might work for me. I included a link to the lower muffler from the lot I'm looking at, in my previous email. For how popular these pipes are, why isn't anyone making some cheap replicas? I think I need to learn how to weld... I think the school here offers classes.

 

Thom

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[Thom Glick]

I made another offer for the CL pipe lot. Waiting to hear back. Attached is a pic of a bike with the headers from a CL and some Emgo, maybe, mufflers. I know I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but thoughts on this kind of set-up? Still really loud and probably requires rejetting? Probably burn the hell out of a passenger?

Thom

[kevineleven]

I have a welder. I live just south of you in Merion Village. I like my exhaust loud.

[Wade Dunham]

Thom:

I just measured the CL pipe mounting. The dimensions are:

24" from spark plug end to center of top shock stud
22.75" from center of shift shaft to center of top shock stud

Zach did something similar to that bike on his CB350. I think he used
CL headpipes and aftermarket tapered mufflers. I thought it looked
damn good. Sounds like Kevin can do your welding, that opens up a lot
of options.

Wade Dunham

[Thom Glick]

What a tease. So, I fiddled with the clutch cable adjustment a little more and the bike fired right up. Weird. It was idling low, so I let it sit to warm up. Ran in to grab my riding gear. Walk the bike out of the courtyard to the road. Stalls. Kick kick kick... no dice. Walk it back into the courtyard. Sit there perplexed for a moment. Turn everything back on, fires back up. Walk it out again. Stalls. Won't start. Kicked it for a while. Nothing. Then kicked it one last time and there's this huge CRACK! sound. Then nothing. Kicked it a few more times and called it a night.

Oh and I couldn't identify any leaks in the carb rubbers.

I'm picking up the new battery from Iron Pony tomorrow, but now I'm thinking there's something else wrong aside from the battery.

Plus, the seller with the pile of CL exhaust turned down my $200 offer for the lot. $50 gets the CL head pipes from another seller, but I'm only going in that direction if you guys think I can put a muffler or baffling on there to quiet it down a little bit. I emailed a guy with the CL head pipes set up on his cafe racer. He said he's got a pair of Emgo 12" Shorties on his head pipes and it's insanely loud.

Thom

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[Tom Graham]

Here is a good generalization. The larger the muffler, the quieter the muffler.
To make a small muffler quiet it must be restrictive and that sounds like a
lawn mower. Bikes should not sound like lawn mowers.

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[Thom Glick]

Continuing my impulsive decision making, I just nabbed a really good looking complete CB450 stock exhaust off ebay. Doesn't appear to have any surface rust and otherwise looks to be in great shape. And, under $200. I think I grabbed it in the first hour it was listed. I'm going to see if I can make these pipes work for now and some day I'll save up for the Benji 2-into-1 high pipes.

What kind of price tag do you think I can put on the headers and open pipes currently on my bike?

And, should I be worried about that loud pop/crack sound from earlier when I was kicking the bike?

Thom

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[Ian Martin]

Hard to say about noise. 

Sent from my iPhone

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<cb450_exhaust.JPG>

[Tom Graham]

Was there smoke with the huge "crack" sound? Do you think the loud noise was
probably a backfire? Check that the carbs are in their rubber manifolds. My
XS650 is sensitive about timing. Too retarded, point gap wears, and she will
backfire at start and blow a carb out of the rubber holder. If the bike still
kicks okay then the mechanicals are most likely okay.

My old Bonneville is much too cultured for sure vulgarities. But rarely she
will not engage the kick ratchet pawl just right and make a mechanical crack
sound. This scared the crap outta me but I never noticed a change with the
bike.

Here is another tip: Use a jumper from the battery + to the hot wire to the
coils (not the points wire that is ground). This bypasses any trouble with the
wiring harness, connectors, switches and only has the ignition system powered.
If the bike runs with the jumper, you can focus your attention to the wiring.

Do you have the battery charged up yet? Can't diagnose a thing until the
battery is charged fully.

----- Original Message -----

Hard to say about noise.

> And, should I be worried about that loud pop/crack sound from earlier when I

[Thom Glick]

Tom:

I didn't see any smoke and kicking afterward there weren't any other odd sounds. It could have been a backfire; everything sounds weird to me coming from those pipes. I'll check that the carbs are still seated properly. Picking up a new battery today, hopefully, and if funds permit also a tender/charger. I've definitely gone over budget this month, so progress might slow for a few weeks. I'm going to try to sell the pipes that came with the bike to level this out a little.

Any chance someone has a picture of the proper routing for the clutch cable? I'm not positive that that was a factor, but the bike was starting Thursday until I made adjustments to the clutch cable. Yesterday I adjusted the clutch and then tried to start the bike, it started up right away. Doesn't seem to me that this would affect starting the bike, but who knows.

Oh and thanks, Wade, for those measurements. I still might try to nab a set of CL head pipes at some point. I think that looks pretty cool too. I'll have to get more knowledgeable about muffler options first. Research research research.

And, Kevin, any chance you'd wanna give me some welding lessons?

Thom

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[Thom Glick]

Oh and (attached pic) here's something cute that some one did with a CB450. Enjoy!

Thom

[Ian Martin]

Backfire was my first guess too.
Family at comfest. Either going to tinker with Honda dream disassembly or bring my manual over and assist you. 614-361-3577

Sent from my iPhone

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[Thom Glick]

Tomorrow would be better, if you're really up for it. Today I'm trying to maintain good relations with my lady; she's got a cold, somehow in the middle summer, and she's hopping on a plane first thing tomorrow morning for a work trip. Keep me posted. Here's my number, 937-901-6744. I hate talking on the phone so, if I don't answer just leave a message and I'll call right back.

Thom

PS - how horrible am I? I've been living in this city for over 10 years and I've never been to Comfest.

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[ian martin]

not horrible at all. comfest has become a county fair. the thing my kids were most excited about was funnel cake.

i will get with you tomorrow.

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[kevineleven]

I'd be glad to. The majority of welding is having the proper equipment for the job and having it set up correctly for the material to be welded. 

[Tom Graham]

Hey Kev,

Call me when class starts.

Tom

----- Original Message -----

> I'd be glad to. The majority of welding is having the proper equipment for
> the job and having it set up correctly for the material to be welded.
>

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> http://www.vinmoto.org/gallery/v/VinMoto-Garage/CO-OHVinMoto-Garages/

[Tom Havenar]

Hey guys, FYI I have a friend who is starting a TIG & MIG welding school on old Henderson Rd. in Columbus in the very near future. He is looking to do some welding in his classes on motorcyles (tanks, light parts,etc.) I think the class is going to be around $250.00 per day?? 

 I'm going to donate a tank and some other small parts for his students.

TomH.

From: Tom Graham <tomte...@hotmail.com>
To: co-ohv...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Co-OhVinmoto] 1971 Honda CB450

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[Tom Graham]

A good welding project for old bikes is an engine stand made from angle iron.
Angle iron is expensive so I use old bed frames I find in the trash. If any
VinMotorist finds a bed frame in the trash, grab it and haul it home! Amazing
the amount of brackets, edges for skate board boxes and general construction
steel for tools is in a bed frame.

Tom

----- Original Message -----

Hey guys, FYI I have a friend who is starting a TIG & MIG welding school on old
Henderson Rd. in Columbus in the very near future. He is looking to do some
welding in his classes on motorcyles (tanks, light parts,etc.) I think the
class is going to be around $250.00 per day??

I'm going to donate a tank and some other small parts for his students.
TomH.

Hey Kev,

Call me when class starts.

Tom

----- Original Message -----

> I'd be glad to. The majority of welding is having the proper equipment for
> the job and having it set up correctly for the material to be welded.
>
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[Thom Glick]

Another day, still not running proper. Today I swapped the battery, swapped the clutch cable, more adjustments, got it to sit and idle, although idling is still a little odd. It levels out but will spike then hang then stall/die. Tomorrow I'm going to pull the spark plugs, I'm assuming I should have done this already, to see how that's going.

I haven't received a response from the seller, but according to ebay, my stock pipes should be here by or before the beginning of next week.

The clutch action feels better. I went to take the bike for a test spin again, got to the end of the block and the bike died and wouldn't start again. Walked it home and got it to come back on, adjusted the idle some more, but couldn't keep it from stalling/dying. It was getting late, so I decided to call it a day.

I spent most of the day doing tune ups and tutorials on coworkers' bicycles. If only motorcycle repair came that easy to me.

Thom

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[Wade Dunham]

Thom:

Sometimes it's best to step away from these things for a day or two. I
think frustration prevents us from thinking clearly!

You should probably check the float levels in the carbs, if you
haven't done that. If I remember correctly, Andy's (my son) CL was
sensitive to the float height, and we adjusted it several times before
getting it where it worked OK. Check the jet sizes when you have the
bowls off and compare them to the stock sizes, and push an old guitar
string through them to be certain they are clear. You should probably
wait until you get the stock exhaust and get it installed before doing
anything else tuning-related. If Ian's offer to come over still
stands, maybe take him up on it.

Wade Dunham

[Ian Martin]

Float levels ARE very sensitive.

Sent from my iPhone

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> http://www.vinmoto.org/gallery/v/VinMoto-Garage/CO-OHVinMoto-Garages/

[Thom Glick]

Good thinking. I'll put this on hold till the pipes show up. I did get a little obsessive this past week and completely neglected my bicycle training.

 

Thom

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[Thom Glick]

Kevin:

 

This sounds pretty awesome. Let me know when you'll have time and what kinda of stuff, beer, moneys I should bring along. I think there's a good chance that my lady friend is getting sent over seas for work for a month... possibly leaving at the end of this week... Abercrombie & Fitch loves surprising their employees wih month long international travel. But, with her gone my schedule is a lot more relaxed.

 

What's double awesome is if I get into this, I work at Columbus College of Art & Design; they have a huge sculpture facility with welding equipment and I believe access to scrap, all of which I would have access to as an employee.

 

Thom

On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 1:21 PM, kevineleven <ke...@70-71.com> wrote:

I'd be glad to. The majority of welding is having the proper equipment for the job and having it set up correctly for the material to be welded. 

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[Thom Glick]

Excitement! According to the the USPS tracker, the CB450 pipes should be waiting for me when I get home.

 

Thom

[Wade Dunham]

Thom:

No updates on the installation yet? You must be out riding!

Wade Dunham

[Thom Glick]

I wish!

 

For the first time since I lived in this house, the USPS didn't just leave the package sitting on the front steps. So, instead of having them leave it today, I requested they deliver it tomorrow morning, when I would surely be home. Then we'll see what kind of mess I can get into. I'm assuming I'll still spend most of the day messing with the carbs. And, somone on the Hondatwins site suggested it could be timing related... just when I thought I was academically starting to understand carbs, now I might have to deal with this other system.

 

Thom

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[Thom Glick]

I'm probably jumping the gun on feeling good about myself, but I got the bike to stay running long enough to zip it around the neighborhood and work it thru a few gears (just fiddling with the idle speed, so nothing spectacular). The clutch feels way better. In first, and from take off, however, the bike is the opposite of smooth, reminds me of the GT380, like it wants a lot of throttle to smooth out, except when I gave it throttle there wasn't much response. It did level out once I got it into second and third. But, still, as I slow down for stops, regardless of being in gear with the clutch pulled or in neutral, the bike died. I had adjusted the idle speed to sit around 2500. Under that it would just die. Slowing to stops, for some reason the idle speed would drop and thus die.

So, sorry for redundancy, I'm a little nervous that I'm going to make things worse because of my inexperience, but I was planning to just pull the carbs off the bike and pull them apart and reassemble them so that I know that everything is set correctly and the ports are all clear of blockage. Is setting the float height as difficult as it seems? Any advice? Does this sound like a terrible idea?

Also, while I was warming the bike up, I noticed that one cylinder is smoking, white-ish smoke, a bit and when I zinged the throttle a few times I got some black smoke. Both pipes look like they have some carbon build up.

Thom

[Grafton Swickard]

Thom, not a bad idea at all.  This is, in fact, precisely what I did with my XS.  I am now so bloody comfortable taking the carbs apart, I occasionally do it just for fun!  Float height is...odd, but mostly just tedious.  *If* you can find a way to measure fuel level in the bowls while the carb is assembled (on my Mikuni carbs, the banjo inlet happens to be exactly the same size & thread as the drain plug, so I just pulled the banjo off the side, threaded it into the bottom and ran some clear tubing to it, filling the bowl by injecting gas into the resulting opening in the side of the carb - if you're not so fortunate, you can probably buy a brake bleeder that will fit the drain), it's relatively simple to check whether the fuel is at the right level (just at or below the top of the bowl when the carb is upright).  The sticky part comes when you have to adjust the float height several times (disassembling and re-assembling the carbs almost entirely every time) to get the right level.  If you can find a reference for where the floats *should* sit when properly set (usually a measurement from the top of the bowl to the top of the float as the carb's inverted), that should greatly reduce the number of times you have to get into them.  A google search for "adjusting carburetor float height" turned up several how-to's describing this process in more detail.

Note, this is a rough & ready process and will get the bike running, but may not get it running perfectly; a shop with a real manometer will probably be required (eventually) for that.  I'm gonna take mine in once it gets too cold to ride, but for now I'm just loving the weather!

Cheers!

Graf

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[Thom Glick]

Exhaust showed up. Insufficient postage, so I had to cough up $13 to get the package. Run right outside to toss them on only to realize I'm missing the two rear mounting brackets and the clamp/collars that secure the mufflers to the headers. So, more parts searching.

Thom

[Ian Matin]

I probably have everything you need. Come by. Free rest of evening. 6143613577

Ian

Sent from my iPhone

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[Ian Matin]

Again, no manometer possible without modifying intake ports. Tpbmusic on hondatwins has a clever way to make float height measure out of old credit card.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Thom Glick]

Success! Still without the clamp/collars, I was able to use some universal brackets to at least secure the mufflers to the bike. Pulled the spark plugs, totally carbon fouled, popped new ones in, started right up. Still idling a little high, but just took it out for a 15 mile test spin and everything seems to be working... except for the horn. This is going to be a fun bike.

Ian - Thanks for the offer. Shoot me your address to in...@thomglick.com... I'll give you a buzz if I can steal my girlfriend's car for a few... unless you're close by in which case I might dare to ride the bike over.

Feeling pretty good right now... but kinda stupid for not pulling those plugs sooner. I'm still assuming that I should pull the carbs and clean the ports.

Thom

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[Thom Glick]

I saw that tpbmusic tutorial last week, but now the link seems to be dead.

Thom

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[Tom Graham]

Thom, don't fuck with the carbs too much. If you try to take off the floats you
might (probably) break one of the posts. Look at it this way. The carbs had
floats adjusted at the factory and they were good enough to run fine for many
miles. Nothing changes the float height except a DPO.

If the carbs don't idle then the idle jet is plugged. Look to the old posts
about this.

[Ian Matin]

Agreed.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Thom Glick]

Point taken. I'll skip tearing the carbs apart. I'll let you know of the results.

Also, there was a little oil on one of the spark plugs. The same side as the smoking exhaust, light colored smoke. Should I be concerned about an issue with rings? Or is it more likely a valve adjustment? Or, should I just ride it and see if it's actually an issue?

Thom

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[kevineleven]

I say fill up the tank, dump in 1/2 a can of seafoam and go for a 100 mile ride and see what happens. I also always put Iridium NGK plugs in my bikes, and have never had a worry. A bit pricey at about $10 per, but whatever...

[Thom Glick]

Should Autozone or Advanced Auto Parts have that stuff? Or the Iron Pony? I've heard that stuff will do wonders for fuel systems.

Thom

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 7:21 AM, kevineleven <ke...@70-71.com> wrote:

I say fill up the tank, dump in 1/2 a can of seafoam and go for a 100 mile ride and see what happens. I also always put Iridium NGK plugs in my bikes, and have never had a worry. A bit pricey at about $10 per, but whatever...

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[Wade Dunham]

I've seen it at Advance Auto Parts and Auto Zone, also saw it at
Wal-Mart yesterday. I have never used it, though.

Wade Dunham

[kevineleven]

yeh autozone, advance, pepboys. probably napa and o"reilleys too and walmart.

[Dio Moore]

What's going on for tonight? <Mr. Brains>

---

From: kevineleven <ke...@70-71.com>
To: co-ohv...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:21 AM

Subject: Re: [Co-OhVinmoto] 1971 Honda CB450

I say fill up the tank, dump in 1/2 a can of seafoam and go for a 100 mile ride and see what happens. I also always put Iridium NGK plugs in my bikes, and have never had a worry. A bit pricey at about $10 per, but whatever... --
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[kevineleven]

yeh i think ima go to the 5 for a beer maybe 7-730 maybe ride around a lil bit, check bodega or whatever. anything to put a mile or 2 on the bike.

[Thom Glick]

Big thanks to Ian for coming over this morning and spending a few hours learning me some stuff. We adjusted the valve clearance, ignition timing (which was the most fun), float height (and made sure that the jets and various other carb ports were clear of obstructions), and clutch cable. I feel like I'm forgetting something. I still need to do an oil change (I bounced from gas station to gas station just now, hoping someone would have motorcycle grade motor oil, but no luck), need to bleed and re-fluid the front brake.

The bike is still idling a little high, but it's better than my initial efforts. I picked up some WD-40 to search for leaks in the carb rubbers, but didn't find any. According to the hondatwins forum (a find by Ian) there could be an issue with the advance spring being worn, if I'm understanding that properly.

I posted some pics from this morning's session to my Facebook page, if anyone is interested in seeing some bike pics. If we're not Facebook friends yet, just search Thom Glick (I've also got an illustration page on there, if you're curious).

Again, thanks Ian, I learned a ton this morning and can't wait to use that know-how power to attack the CB350 project.

Thom

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[Thom Glick]

I may have spoke too soon. I tried the WD-40 trick again and it seems like something IS happening. It was idling around 2k rpm... squirt the left side boot... delay... then the rpm's dropped to around 1k. After a minute or two back up to 2k. Same thing happened on the right side. Pretty clear sign of a leak in the rubbers? Treasure hunt for parts begins again.

Thom

[Ray Denison]

Thom, AMA Vintage Motorcycle Days @ Mid Ohio is the 22-24 this month.  It hosts one of the largest swap meets in the country.  Vim Moto guys usually hang around in one of the swap meet spaces.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Thom Glick]

I will almost definitely be out there for that action.

 

Anyone have a DIY solution for repairing leaks in the carb boots?

 

And, anyone know the name of that insulator tape that wraps around the end of the headpipe to more snuggly fit the muffler and eliminate venting?

 

Thom

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[Wade Dunham]

Thom:

Try to isolate the leak by spraying the WD-40 in small areas. When you
find it, clean that area and try covering it with something like
Permatex 81158 Black Silicone Adhesive Sealant. I've used the Permatex
before, and found it grips well to both metal and rubber. That may
hold you over until you can find some better carb holders. It may work
well enough that you don't need to bother with replacing them.

Cool that Ian came over to help you out. Andy and I adjusted the
valves on the 500T motor in his CL450 this weekend. Ian was right when
he told me that it can be a little tedious hitting that 0.0012
clearance spec (ours are between 0.0015 and 0.002 now). These valves
were all over the place, from about 0.005 to 0.011 (!). It no longer
sounds like a sewing machine. Not perfect, but much better.

How's the clutch now? Have you ridden the bike much since you and Ian
serviced it?

Wade Dunham

[Thom Glick]

Clutch is working tons better, again thanks to Ian. He adjusted the routing, which I'm sure made a difference and he adjusted the play too. It's a different feel than my Suzuki had, which probably wasn't helping when I was trying to adjust it myself. But, it's pretty nice now.

 

I took the bike out for a short ride in an attempt to acquire some oil, yesterday, to do an oil change. Ian's prognosis was that I shouldn't ride it much until I deal with the intake leak and the get the oil changed... but I rode it enough yesterday to know that I really like this bike. By the way, apparently gas stations do no carry motorcycle quality motor oil.

 

Thom

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[kevineleven]

DIY? Here's a sure-fire way to half-ass this repair...It'd be easier to do this with carbs and insulators removed, but i suppose it could be done with them still on the bike. Get yourself an old innertube and cut it to the size needed to completely cover the outside of the insulators. Adhere with rubber cement. I'd say wipe everything clean with alcohol before hand. While I've never done this, I've heard it works, and cant really see a reason why it wouldn't. Doing the entire insulator would also "fix" any leaks/cracks you may have overlooked. This *probably* isn't outlined in the service manual, and you may wanna replace them....eventually.

[Thom Glick]

Haha. That sounds intriguing. I had considered buying a bottle of that spray rubber they advertise on television that'll make a screen door water tight. Probably a bettery, but pricier option - my friend Nicole, who rides a CB400F out in San Francisco, recommended a shop out there, called Charlie's Place, www.charlies-place.com. He has the carb insulator rubbers for sale on his site. I think they're new condition, but $46 per insulator. Zing!

 

He's got a ton of stuff I'm interested in, as well, so might be worth putting in a big order. Electronic ignition replacement (thoughts on this vs sticking with the points?), tank rubbers (the rubber slot at the back of my tank is pretty much gone, gasket kits, oil seal kits (apparently there's a missing or malfunctioning seal somewhere behind the final drive chain cover, a few other stuffs too... hoping he has the mid exhaust clamping collars and rear hanging/mounting brackets.

 

Thom

On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 1:56 PM, kevineleven <ke...@70-71.com> wrote:

DIY? Here's a sure-fire way to half-ass this repair...It'd be easier to do this with carbs and insulators removed, but i suppose it could be done with them still on the bike. Get yourself an old innertube and cut it to the size needed to completely cover the outside of the insulators. Adhere with rubber cement. I'd say wipe everything clean with alcohol before hand. While I've never done this, I've heard it works, and cant really see a reason why it wouldn't. Doing the entire insulator would also "fix" any leaks/cracks you may have overlooked. This *probably* isn't outlined in the service manual, and you may wanna replace them....eventually.

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[Grafton Swickard]

Well, this place is a *little* better on the boots at $32/side: 

http://www.powersedge.com/pages/oemparts#%2fHonda%2fCB450_A__MOTORCYCLE%2c_JPN%2c_VIN%23_CB450-1000001%2fCYLINDER_%2b_CYLINDER_HEAD%2fCB450-JPN-A%2f2Y142834E14283401A

ebay only seems to have used pairs or singles, atm, and they're probably not any better than what you've got.  If your friend's source out in CA has other things you need, you may make up the savings in shipping costs.  

cheers!

Graf

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[Thom Glick]

Very cool. I've sourced everything except these collar/clamps that secure the mufflers to the head pipes. Any reason not to just go with some aftermarket collars? Math time... anyone know what size diameter collar I need for these pipes?

 

Also... how do I set up a garage on the Vin-Moto site?

 

Thom

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[Thom Glick]

I saw, yesterday, that some one posted a 1976 Honda CB500T for sale on Craigslist. I felt inclined to do some research, given it's the step-up version of the 450. Is it true that the 450 had better horsepower and top end speed? Not that I'm a speed junky, but curious what the benefits were for the 500T versus the 450K.

 

Thom

[Tom Graham]

I think the 500T was an attempt to use a wonderful engine design for one last
model.

----- Original Message -----

<http://www.charlies-place.com/>arlies-place.com<http://charlies-place.com/>.

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[Ray Denison]

The 450 head flows more air but the 500 had better gearing...that's why I bored my 450 to 497cc and added the gear set from a 500...Tom is correct...Honda was trying to extend sales. Other distinctions are exhaust (w/crossover) and revised body work & seat.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Thom Glick]

Any reason not to use these in place of the stock exhaust clamps?

 

http://www.bikebandit.com/cobra-stainless-motorcycle-exhaust-t-bolt-clamps

 

Thom

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[Tom Graham]

NAPA has T-bolt clamps. They are branded Breeze clamps. I use those same clamps
to hold supercharging manifolding.

----- Original Message -----

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[Thom Glick]

Double awesome! There's a NAPA about 5-10 minutes down High Street from me. Perfect.

 

Thom

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[Thom Glick]

I ordered a set of those replacement carburator insulators/intake manifold rubbers, this morning. Will I need a special sealant/bonding material for installing to the engine side?

Also, in case you didn't check out the link to Charlie's Place, in San Francisco, I did a little research and he specializes in vintage Honda repair, restoration, and customization; he seems to focus heavily on CB450's (some of his bikes have been featured in magazines). It looks like he's got some kind of deal with manufacturers to keep him in new no-longer-available parts for 450's but also for a number of other CA, CB, and CL models. Stuff like tank rubbers, carb kits and parts, gaskets, seals, various engine bits, tune-up kits (with points), pistons, cables, electronic ignitions and coils, etc etc... plus from emailing back and forth, he appears to have a small catalogue of used hard-to-find and/or no-longer-available parts. If you've been having trouble tracking something down, I'd recommend giving him a go. And, he's quick with responses, usually within hours of emailing. www.charlies-place.com

Thom

[Thom Glick]

And, because I'm impatient and want to ride this bike, I did a couple circuits around Downtown, about 5 miles or so total. I'm noticing a bit of a wobble or shimmy in the front end. It could just be vibration, but it seems a little more prominent than just vibration. It's happening around 40-50 mph.

I'm thinking the front wheel could be out of true... any easy tricks for checking this? I've trued wheels on bicycles, but they have caliper brakes that I can use as guides.

Any other suggestions on what the wobble could be from? And, how to address it?

It seems like something could be off center, up front, too. Like it feels like I'm pushing the handlebars just a little to the right to maintain a straight line. But, when I take my hands off the bars, the bike appears to track straight and in line.

Thom

[kevineleven]

I'm pretty sure I saw you out riding! I was passing baseball with my son in Moeller park, and immediately thought it might be you rolling around.

[Thom Glick]

The carb rubbers showed up today. I just pulled everything apart to swap the old with the new, but worried there might be a hitch in the giddy-up. Is there supposed to be a gasket between the rubber and the engine? There were gaskets, with the old rubbers, which I pulled off only minutes ago, but the gaskets both tore as soon as I pulled the rubbers from the engine. I can't tell if these gaskets are necessary or not.

Thom

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 9:47 AM, kevineleven <ke...@70-71.com> wrote:

I'm pretty sure I saw you out riding! I was passing baseball with my son in Moeller park, and immediately thought it might be you rolling around.

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[adam coate]

Yes, they are very necessary! Sometimes you can get away with gasket sealant(high-tack or equivalent), but if your doing a restore, you should do it right. That's a bummer the new boots didn't come with gaskets.  --- On Wed, 7/13/11, Thom Glick <thom...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Thom Glick <thom...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Co-OhVinmoto] 1971 Honda CB450

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