Testing, testing

[Maria Mazurova]

It was good to see everyone tonight, I am looking forward to a great class! To start off the discussion, I will share a thought I had about the field...

Thinking back on tonight’s lecture while driving home, I began to wonder about my underlying sadistic tendencies. What came to my mind is another thought: perhaps we are so afraid to face our own inner "demons” and fix ourselves that we compensate for this by “finding and curing” other peoples problems. When we do this successfully, we feel better, but only temporarily, because we haven't fixed our own problems, so we move on to the next client. Or maybe we fix ourselves as we fix our clients, both learning from the experience... Could be random ideas, or could be linear thinking that will take me on a one way ride into my subconscious. Not sure it matters to me that much right now, my current thinking is it’s fine anyway you look at it, there are many solutions to any given problem, best not to get too dogmatic about these things. I’ll sleep on it and see what my dreams bring…

[Jeanine Gruschow]

My thought was a reinterpretation of a recurring dream in which I am being abandoned. I am told in my dream that I will be fine.  For several years I was angry about the dream....tonight I wondered for the first time if all along, my subconscious was telling me I would be fine.  I think that reality is subjective and salient.  I am still exploring how my mind sets reality depending on my life context....

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 3, 2013, at 10:49 PM, Maria Mazurova <mmaz...@oakland.edu> wrote:

It was good to see everyone tonight, I am looking forward to a great class! To start off the discussion, I will share a thought I had about the field...

Thinking back on tonight’s lecture while driving home, I began to wonder about my underlying sadistic tendencies. What came to my mind is another thought: perhaps we are so afraid to face our own inner "demons” and fix ourselves that we compensate for this by “finding and curing” other peoples problems. When we do this successfully, we feel better, but only temporarily, because we haven't fixed our own problems, so we move on to the next client. Or maybe we fix ourselves as we fix our clients, both learning from the experience... Could be random ideas, or could be linear thinking that will take me on a one way ride into my subconscious. Not sure it matters to me that much right now, my current thinking is it’s fine anyway you look at it, there are many solutions to any given problem, best not to get too dogmatic about these things. I’ll sleep on it and see what my dreams bring…

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[Mark Kauffman]

Maria, I think your right, at least imo.  I have my fair share of issues, but when it has come to helping my friends with their issues, problems, I get a huge rush/joy out of it.  It takes me away from my daily problems and it also helps me put some of my issues into perspective.  I also just enjoy being kind to others!  Which to me is rare nowadays!  

I have heard many theories on individuals who go into counseling/therapy and usually it has to do with therapist having underlining issues.  I agree completely that we get a lot out of helping the client, and that feeling of achievement/satisfaction is great at that time.  However, it does go away and is only a band aid for the therapists personal issues, but does this make us bad people?  No, not at all!  Its a dog eat dog world and if I was in sales, or any other field, I would always be looking out for myself, my best interests and doing whats best for me.  Sure, I would be kind and try not to throw others under the bus, but I find it interesting that therapists are singled out as the "selfish" ones. 

What really gets me thinking are my issues that I am not aware of.  How much do those unconscious thoughts/feelings come into play in determining my career choice?  Am I an addict and just not aware?  I love working with addicts, so what does that say about me that I may not notice?  Sorry for rambling, but its hard to type what I truly mean and feel.  Anyways hope that helps kick start the semester!!
Mark

On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Maria Mazurova <mmaz...@oakland.edu> wrote:

It was good to see everyone tonight, I am looking forward to a great class! To start off the discussion, I will share a thought I had about the field...

Thinking back on tonight’s lecture while driving home, I began to wonder about my underlying sadistic tendencies. What came to my mind is another thought: perhaps we are so afraid to face our own inner "demons” and fix ourselves that we compensate for this by “finding and curing” other peoples problems. When we do this successfully, we feel better, but only temporarily, because we haven't fixed our own problems, so we move on to the next client. Or maybe we fix ourselves as we fix our clients, both learning from the experience... Could be random ideas, or could be linear thinking that will take me on a one way ride into my subconscious. Not sure it matters to me that much right now, my current thinking is it’s fine anyway you look at it, there are many solutions to any given problem, best not to get too dogmatic about these things. I’ll sleep on it and see what my dreams bring…

[James T. Hansen]

I am very pleased that the first class has stimulated this discussion.  Thank you to the contributors.  Please feel free to make a contribution to the group - let us know what you think of the articles.

Also, don't forget to fill out the initial survey if you have not done so already.

James T. Hansen, Ph.D.
Professor

Coordinator, Mental Health Specialization
Oakland University
Department of Counseling
450E Pawley Hall
Rochester, MI 48309

James T. Hansen website

 

 

Phone: (248) 370-3071

Email: jtha...@oakland.edu

[Meaghan Moineau]

I can already tell this class is going to challenge me on many levels.  So exciting!

 

Maria, your thoughts intrigue me.  I chose a different career path during my 20's, and anytime someone mentioned to me that I should look into being a therapist I answered by saying something about not wanting to help others with their problems when I could not even seem to effectively deal with many of my own problems.  Is it really about fixing ourselves or even fixing other people for that matter?  Can you really fix a person?  What does it mean to fix a person?  I may have come to accept my own life and find closure or peace with the parts that may be harder to deal with, but I do not know that I will ever be able to fix myself. 

 

Jeanine, I too had a recurring dream for many years and I often reflected on its meaning.  I had a fear of abandonment for much of my adolescence, and I feel it played a large role in my dreams.  I stopped having the recurring dream many years ago, and I sometimes wonder if it is because I dealt with certain life scenarios that kept recurring (just like the dream).  As soon as I gained closure, the dream ceased.

 

Mark, I was having the same thought process about my career choice.  I would like to work with at-risk youth and young adults in a correctional facility setting.  I've never personally been incarcerated, but for as long as I can remember I have been drawn to criminal justice and rehabilitation.  I look at this career choice as a puzzle piece.   For reasons I cannot explain it fits, it makes sense, and when I question it I never seem to be able to find a solid answer. 

[Kurtis Kirkpatrick]

I think the biggest thing that all of the posters so far have shown is that you (we) are actually thinking about things on a different level. We are thinking about our thinking (meta cognition), something most people never achieve the ability to do. This is incredibly powerful. I also think that doing so allows us to help others, particularly clients, to do something similar. Turning our scope into the self can really broaden our understanding about ourselves, as well as others and society as a whole.

Also, it's interesting to hear (read) individuals talking about dream interpretation. I own a copy of "The Interpretation of Dreams" which I fully plan to read through completely (I've read about 75 pages and it feels like I read 3 classic novels, the writing is so dense), but I also have read "On Dreams" by Freud. This is an essay from his later years simplifying much of what was written in his larger work, focused the portions directly related to dreams. In this essay, he actually breaks down one of his owns dreams and makes connections and interprets aspects of the dream that are so minute. It really is mind blowing. I suggest to anyone interested to make the small investment (my copy of On Dreams was less than $10). If for nothing else than to read something incredibly interesting.

Kurt

[Jessica Moran]

I have a feeling that the reason we got into this field has a lot to do with unconscious motivations, because since I have actually started working with the population and the people in it I often think to myself "what the hell was I thinking?" but regardless I keep up the hard work because I know that one day I am going to get to a point where I can really accomplish what I want and that is that I just really want to help people. Forget about all the different techniques and theories and all the political bs that goes along with it. I know that I just want to help make life easier for the person who is genuinely lost and needing some guidance. I have been at my internship site for a few weeks and the biggest complaint I keep hearing from all the clients is that they often feel like the therapists and mental health specialists in the field are disingenuous and only worried about a paycheck. I pray that I never get to a day when I am like that because I will have to quit and start over somewhere else. The unconscious pull has just always been in me to want to help others, and I know that the pull to do that is very uncommon and rare so I feel pride that I am like that and hope that whatever pulled me this way to begin with will never go away. 

On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Maria Mazurova <mmaz...@oakland.edu> wrote:

It was good to see everyone tonight, I am looking forward to a great class! To start off the discussion, I will share a thought I had about the field...

Thinking back on tonight’s lecture while driving home, I began to wonder about my underlying sadistic tendencies. What came to my mind is another thought: perhaps we are so afraid to face our own inner "demons” and fix ourselves that we compensate for this by “finding and curing” other peoples problems. When we do this successfully, we feel better, but only temporarily, because we haven't fixed our own problems, so we move on to the next client. Or maybe we fix ourselves as we fix our clients, both learning from the experience... Could be random ideas, or could be linear thinking that will take me on a one way ride into my subconscious. Not sure it matters to me that much right now, my current thinking is it’s fine anyway you look at it, there are many solutions to any given problem, best not to get too dogmatic about these things. I’ll sleep on it and see what my dreams bring…

[Justin Fittonneville]

Meaghan and Mark, I am in the same boat you two are in.  I have a passion for working with the adjudicated individuals and want to help them.  While Meaghan you mentioned how you can't explain why, but you just feel that it fits for you.  I am the same way except I look at it a little differently, I can explain it.  I believe that everything happens for a reason and has a purpose behind it.  I know that I was placed in on this wonderful round planet we call earth for a reason and a purpose, and I have always known it is to work with young people, I just recently realized it was working with at risk young people.  Btw, Meaghan, that is also why I am soo relaxed and don't stress out about anything, because I believe that everything that happens will happen as it is supposed to, no mistakes, so why should I worry about it and try to fight it.

[Meaghan Moineau]

Justin,  You needed a disclaimer with that reply!  Most of the class doesn't know I'm high strung and stressed out!!!

[Maria Mazurova]

It's ok Meaghan, we can have a zen session after class sometime :)

On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Meaghan Moineau <mimo...@oakland.edu> wrote:

Justin,  You needed a disclaimer with that reply!  Most of the class doesn't know I'm high strung and stressed out!!!

--

[Jeanine Gruschow]

Zen is good.  Interesting reading about no note taking in sessions. That the mind of the therapist will at an implied subconscious level remember and link for clients what they do not necessarily see as related .... Begging the question of how reality is influenced ....

Sent from my iPhone

[James T. Hansen]

I appreciate all of the activity on the discussion group!  Jeanine commented on the Freud article.  What do other people think of the readings?

James T. Hansen, Ph.D.
Professor

Coordinator, Mental Health Specialization
Oakland University
Department of Counseling
450E Pawley Hall
Rochester, MI 48309

James T. Hansen website

 

 

Phone: (248) 370-3071

Email: jtha...@oakland.edu

[Mark Kauffman]

I have read the articles, and my  brain is moosh!  Not sure if its me or what, but I got the impression that it all overlapped with each other.  The key to each article to me is the "unconscious" aspect of the client.  Yes, it is our job as counselors to help the clients dig deep and find what is causing their current behavior.

The Freud article I found redundant, but also the most informative out of the three, the Pine article really was a tough read for me.  He touches on the four psychologies, but throughout his writings, he really only seems to focus on two of the four. For me, it was a hard read!  However, it seemed to go together with the Freud.  The importance of counselors helping the clients reach their unconscious level; motives, issues growing up, etc. seem to be the underlying theme to me.  I could be way off, and I plan on reading over it again before class, but even the discussion points didn't seem to jell with the article.  Love to hear others insight on it.  

Fancher seem to continue drilling home key aspects of psychoanalysis, again redundant, but a good article.  He laid out the pro's and con's to it all, but I feel at times he was reaching to find problems with psychoanalysis and was also looking too deep into the whole topic.

The Freud article was a great read, the other two imo, not so much.  It was as if the authors were trying to either push the boundaries.  Love to hear others insight!  Still haven't done my journal for the week, I feel I am still missing on some key concepts/information.  Again feedback and insight would be greatly appreciated!  

Mark 

[James T. Hansen]

Mark:

I appreciate your thoughts on the articles.  You are correct in that the unifying idea of psychoanalysis is the primacy of unconscious motivation.  I agree that some of the articles are difficult to read - I will go over them in class before the discussion - I think that there is a big payoff in struggling to understand what these authors are saying, though.  I look forward to hearing you (and others) discuss these articles during the next class.  Anyone else care to offer their opinions about the readings?

James T. Hansen, Ph.D.
Professor

Coordinator, Mental Health Specialization
Oakland University
Department of Counseling
450E Pawley Hall
Rochester, MI 48309

James T. Hansen website

 

 

Phone: (248) 370-3071

Email: jtha...@oakland.edu

[Michelle Monforton]

After having read many reading for some from Dr.. Hansen's other classes, the material is sometimes wordy, and it is often a struggle, as you read more and more, your brain picks up on ideas much more quickly and brings you up  notch intellectually. (like conditioning for a marathon/muscle memory) You will be surprised at how differently some professionals in the field regard you when they know you have read some of these works or at least have a working knowledge of the ideas. Aside from that, reading Freud is fun, but challenges what we all know him to be. It makes you wonder if the crazy stereotype of the over-sexed, cigar smoking man behind the couch has been drive into our minds for our whole lives, that a new unconscious struggle was created-one between what we "know" about these is ideas and what the new "truth" is about Freud. When they don't necessarily match, and it is presented an intellectualized fashion,it can be extra hard to work through yet another unconscious/subconscious struggle for self mastery and approval? I think I may be pushing it, but it is fun to throw around.

Michelle

[Jeanine Gruschow]

All,

Well, this is fun!  Quickly I am drawn to parallels in the writings:  'Reality' is simultaneously constructed and experienced through the process of living.  Psychoanalysis through the utilization of sub-conscious, unconscious, object-relations, ego-relations etc…resonates differently with clients.  The glue that binds is often context and language and even here, there is a continuum of different experiences and interpretations.  The big one for me is that for psychoanalysis/therapy to work, the premise of possessing an identity that was formed and can be changed or re-formed has to exist….that is the leap of faith….reading more closely, I found, particularly in Freud some underpinnings of questions of the meaning of life being discussed academically in a world with emphasis being placed on the 'scientific' as equal to a 'true-reality'.  Perhaps it is precisely because we all have individual 'realities' that the science of psychoanalysis is so problematic….

Jeanine

[James T. Hansen]

If you have not done so already, please make sure to complete the four questions survey before the next class:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ftx60G4lYpzxJT-gH1jR3gwXZSHGuLvkbLqQRUmR7dY/viewform

James T. Hansen, Ph.D.
Professor

Coordinator, Mental Health Specialization
Oakland University
Department of Counseling
450E Pawley Hall
Rochester, MI 48309

James T. Hansen website

 

 

Phone: (248) 370-3071

Email: jtha...@oakland.edu

[Kurtis Kirkpatrick]

Reading the Fancher article was bit annoying to me. I understand why it is included with this week, I found the tone of the article a bit condescending. It felt like he took a textbook and regurgitated the information in a "ha look at what these idiots think" manner. There were points when it seemed that he was educated in psychoanalytic therapy, which I believe he said a few times. But the constant use of "for psychoanalysts" and such just felt like he was trying to separate this theory from the rest of psychology/psychiatry. It was frustrating to me, as it seemed to be reminiscent of my professors I've had who discarded Freud and his massive contributions to modern therapeutic techniques.

The Pine article really brought what I have learned about psychoanalysis a bit back to earth and really related it to how we learn to help clients in this program. The immediacy of interpretations, the way it needs to resonate with the client, etc. made a connection to the counseling education I've received. It was a good read, because I was always a bit unclear about the way interventions and techniques worked within an analysis.

Looking forward to discussing this stuff further tonight!

Kurtis

[James T. Hansen]

Kurtis:

Thank you for your thoughtful commentary about the articles.  I look forward to hearing from everyone tonight.

James T. Hansen, Ph.D.
Professor

Coordinator, Mental Health Specialization
Oakland University
Department of Counseling
450E Pawley Hall
Rochester, MI 48309

James T. Hansen website

 

 

Phone: (248) 370-3071

Email: jtha...@oakland.edu

[Meaghan Moineau]

More than anything else in this week's readings, what stood out to me in the Fancher article was when he wrote "psychoanalysis calls the patient to face the truth in order to become one with himself," yet in the preceding paragraph he writes "this is why psychoanalysts are not especially interested in finding out 'what really happened' in a person's childhood.  They just want to know how the patient perceived his childhood..."

 

So, is it then being implied that "truth" is in fact how one perceives or experiences a situation regardless of the facts. That "truth" really has nothing to do with the actuality of a situation but rather the perception.

[James T. Hansen]

Meaghan:

You've hit upon a key question/issue that we will be discussing in the course!

James T. Hansen, Ph.D.
Professor

Coordinator, Mental Health Specialization
Oakland University
Department of Counseling
450E Pawley Hall
Rochester, MI 48309

James T. Hansen website

 

 

Phone: (248) 370-3071

Email: jtha...@oakland.edu

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Meaghan Moineau <mimo...@oakland.edu> wrote:

More than anything else in this week's readings, what stood out to me in the Fancher article was when he wrote "psychoanalysis calls the patient to face the truth in order to become one with himself," yet in the preceding paragraph he writes "this is why psychoanalysts are not especially interested in finding out 'what really happened' in a person's childhood.  They just want to know how the patient perceived his childhood..."

 

So, is it then being implied that "truth" is in fact how one perceives or experiences a situation regardless of the facts. That "truth" really has nothing to do with the actuality of a situation but rather the perception.

--

[Jeanine Gruschow]

Going back to Aristotle and the concept of knowing oneself....then swinging to the post modern philosophies

Sent from my iPhone

[Rachel Menger]

My mind is a pile of mush too Mark! I found the articles, Pine's in particular, pretty difficult and had to reread several sections a few times.  I am coming prepared with a variety of questions and am looking forward to asking them tonight!