Tracking and finding data in clouds
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hasan24
Dec 7, 2009, 11:12:56 AM12/7/09
to Cloud Computing
Hi Guys,
For long i have read about a potential problem in clouds which states
that its impossible to find/pin-point where data actually resides in
the cloud. Hence giving rise to compliance issues and especially
auditing problems as it is not known where in the cloud (which virtual
machine) contains X (the particular data to be found). To me (and i
may be wrong or not seeing correctly) this seems like a FUD rather
then a FACT. First of all, i think we take two completely different
scenarios and overlap them. There can be two (at least) broad areas in
which we can divide the cloud applications. First those application
where all data is important (e.g. a data center or a health
application in cloud) and second the applications which do not need to
retain the intermediate data (e.g. printing or email service). Now it
is important that the health application keeps track of all records in
the cloud so that if later on we need to find a particular data, we
know where to look in the cloud (on which virtual machine). However in
case of a customer load during office hours for emailing, we might
need to add another virtual image to serve all the requests, but it is
not necessary to retain that data and hence during after-hours we can
scale down and virtual machine can be returned to the resource pool.
This is the scenario where most people point their fingers and say
that since the virtual machine/image is returned, the data is lost.
The point to note here is that the image is scaled down depending upon
the application. In case of a data center, the virtual machine is
never scaled down since the data center only asks for more resources
when the current ones are fully occupied and there is a need for new
resource. But that need is still there during after-hours. Data center
(whether in physical machines inside the company or virtual in clouds)
only grows with time and data is only deleted which is not required.
So in case of such applications data is not lost (off course mechanism
for proper storage and retrieval are required just as in case of
physical data center). My point of view is that in case of those
applications, proper mechanisms are needed and if they are employed (i
do not know how things are tracked in data center but same can be used
here also) then tracing data is clouds is not a problem. Any contrary
scenarios/thoughts are welcome
For long i have read about a potential problem in clouds which states
that its impossible to find/pin-point where data actually resides in
the cloud. Hence giving rise to compliance issues and especially
auditing problems as it is not known where in the cloud (which virtual
machine) contains X (the particular data to be found). To me (and i
may be wrong or not seeing correctly) this seems like a FUD rather
then a FACT. First of all, i think we take two completely different
scenarios and overlap them. There can be two (at least) broad areas in
which we can divide the cloud applications. First those application
where all data is important (e.g. a data center or a health
application in cloud) and second the applications which do not need to
retain the intermediate data (e.g. printing or email service). Now it
is important that the health application keeps track of all records in
the cloud so that if later on we need to find a particular data, we
know where to look in the cloud (on which virtual machine). However in
case of a customer load during office hours for emailing, we might
need to add another virtual image to serve all the requests, but it is
not necessary to retain that data and hence during after-hours we can
scale down and virtual machine can be returned to the resource pool.
This is the scenario where most people point their fingers and say
that since the virtual machine/image is returned, the data is lost.
The point to note here is that the image is scaled down depending upon
the application. In case of a data center, the virtual machine is
never scaled down since the data center only asks for more resources
when the current ones are fully occupied and there is a need for new
resource. But that need is still there during after-hours. Data center
(whether in physical machines inside the company or virtual in clouds)
only grows with time and data is only deleted which is not required.
So in case of such applications data is not lost (off course mechanism
for proper storage and retrieval are required just as in case of
physical data center). My point of view is that in case of those
applications, proper mechanisms are needed and if they are employed (i
do not know how things are tracked in data center but same can be used
here also) then tracing data is clouds is not a problem. Any contrary
scenarios/thoughts are welcome
Rao Dronamraju
Dec 7, 2009, 12:47:41 PM12/7/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Hasan,
When you say pin-point where data actually resides, I hope you not talking
in terms of GPS coordinates, are you?...:-). You can always pin-point in
terms of IP addresses. Here is how things works in public clouds like Amazon
presently.
It is the virtual machines that are dynamic in nature (i.e spacial migration
and temporal existance). This means it is the processing that gets moved
around and depending on the availability of physical resources when and
where. The data although gets shipped to the processing entity/VM, but this
is totally done by your VM. For instance, in the data center your data is
brought to a VM/application from a database and processed and stored back on
the database/storage device. Same thing happens in the clouds too, not any
different. About data being transient not persistent, it depends on where
you store your data. For instance on Amazon AWS, if you store your data on
EBS or S3 it is persitant, which means it STAYS does not disappear with the
VM when the VM is terminated. So if the medical application needs all its
records that have been produced by the VM, then attach an EBS or store it on
S3. Only data that is lost with the termination of VM is the local disk
data. Think of EBS and S3 as no different than a disk or a SAN in the data
center. So whether to retain any data or not is totally under your control
and no diferent than what happens in the data center. In addition, you can
also control the data placement through Amazon cloud front type of services
in terms of regions, availability zones etc where you deploy your data. You
may want to take a deep dive into Amazon's documentation and you can see how
this is done. Hope that helps!.
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hasan24
Dec 8, 2009, 10:29:22 AM12/8/09
to Cloud Computing
Hi Rao,
Thank you for replying. It certainly helped in understanding and
proved my point that people pointing fingers at cloud computing
claiming the data would be lost is indeed a FUD. Sidekick fiasco would
have happened if they were using a physical server also because the
glitch happened (which does happen at times) and they had no BACKUP.
Critical data needs to be backed up and persistent storage is required
for such data critical apps. I do however require more clarification.
Consider the following scenario.
Suppose that i have my application running in the cloud and i have a
large instance of EC2 with sufficient storage capacity. Since my data
is critical and needs to be persistent, i am using EBS or S3 (which if
i correctly understand are also hosted as a cloud application).
Suppose that i pull the data from from persistent data storage,
perform a process in my VM and eventually store the new data back to
persistent storage. The question that i asked about tracking the data
is how do i find where this particular data is in my persistent
storage (assuming my persistent storage is also a cloud app). IS there
or more appropriately should there be a way to find this data from my
VM interface. I suppose the answer would be doing an appropriate query
and locating the data on persistent storage. But what if i want to
find some data that is not on persistent storage but in the local VM
storage. What if i have several VMs running and i want to find where
is X (x being the data i want to locate). How would i locate my data
if 100 VMs are currently deployed and used by my app.
Consider another scenario. Suppose that i did some process on the data
and then stored it back to persistent storage. The details about the
process are stored in the VM storage which of course would be lost
when i restart the image or when they VM is returned back to the pool
of resources. With that, all the information about the process would
be lost i.e. what processes were done with the data, who initiated the
process etc. All that we have now is our new data. Some years down the
road, an auditor comes and finds that there is some discrepancy and
needs to know the details of the process and the person who performed
these. But since this was done by adding a VM resource (e.g. due to
high demand at that time), there is no data available. Now we have the
data due to persistent storage, but no information of by whom and how
was the data manipulated. This i think is the problem that most people
refer to when they say that data would be lost in clouds. The solution
(i think) would be to log all the details about the process and store
them on persistent storage also with time stamps etc. Another
possibility could be doing a run time audit of the processes/
transactions (another area that i am currently interested in and if
you have any ideas or can point me to relevant information, i would
highly appreciate it).
Thanks
On Dec 7, 12:47 pm, "Rao Dronamraju" <rao.dronamr...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
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Thank you for replying. It certainly helped in understanding and
proved my point that people pointing fingers at cloud computing
claiming the data would be lost is indeed a FUD. Sidekick fiasco would
have happened if they were using a physical server also because the
glitch happened (which does happen at times) and they had no BACKUP.
Critical data needs to be backed up and persistent storage is required
for such data critical apps. I do however require more clarification.
Consider the following scenario.
Suppose that i have my application running in the cloud and i have a
large instance of EC2 with sufficient storage capacity. Since my data
is critical and needs to be persistent, i am using EBS or S3 (which if
i correctly understand are also hosted as a cloud application).
Suppose that i pull the data from from persistent data storage,
perform a process in my VM and eventually store the new data back to
persistent storage. The question that i asked about tracking the data
is how do i find where this particular data is in my persistent
storage (assuming my persistent storage is also a cloud app). IS there
or more appropriately should there be a way to find this data from my
VM interface. I suppose the answer would be doing an appropriate query
and locating the data on persistent storage. But what if i want to
find some data that is not on persistent storage but in the local VM
storage. What if i have several VMs running and i want to find where
is X (x being the data i want to locate). How would i locate my data
if 100 VMs are currently deployed and used by my app.
Consider another scenario. Suppose that i did some process on the data
and then stored it back to persistent storage. The details about the
process are stored in the VM storage which of course would be lost
when i restart the image or when they VM is returned back to the pool
of resources. With that, all the information about the process would
be lost i.e. what processes were done with the data, who initiated the
process etc. All that we have now is our new data. Some years down the
road, an auditor comes and finds that there is some discrepancy and
needs to know the details of the process and the person who performed
these. But since this was done by adding a VM resource (e.g. due to
high demand at that time), there is no data available. Now we have the
data due to persistent storage, but no information of by whom and how
was the data manipulated. This i think is the problem that most people
refer to when they say that data would be lost in clouds. The solution
(i think) would be to log all the details about the process and store
them on persistent storage also with time stamps etc. Another
possibility could be doing a run time audit of the processes/
transactions (another area that i am currently interested in and if
you have any ideas or can point me to relevant information, i would
highly appreciate it).
Thanks
On Dec 7, 12:47 pm, "Rao Dronamraju" <rao.dronamr...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> Follow us on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/cloudcomp_groupor @cloudcomp_group
> Post Job/Resume athttp://cloudjobs.net
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> downloadable versions athttp://cloudslam09.com/content/registration-5.html
Jan Klincewicz
Dec 8, 2009, 10:48:49 AM12/8/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Hasan:
Indeed, VMs can be trying entities to audit. Their very nature is that they can be migrated from host to host irrespective of physical location. This can conceivably occur based on host resources with no manual intervention. Such migrations are typically recorded in a log, though, and any organization that is regulated probably keeps these logs forever.
In a typical configuration, data accessed and manipulated by the virtual server is stored on a disk subsystem (or LUN) segregated from the virtual disk hosting the VM itself. Best practices would dictate little data is held on the "local" storage of the VM.
--
Cheers,
Jan
Indeed, VMs can be trying entities to audit. Their very nature is that they can be migrated from host to host irrespective of physical location. This can conceivably occur based on host resources with no manual intervention. Such migrations are typically recorded in a log, though, and any organization that is regulated probably keeps these logs forever.
In a typical configuration, data accessed and manipulated by the virtual server is stored on a disk subsystem (or LUN) segregated from the virtual disk hosting the VM itself. Best practices would dictate little data is held on the "local" storage of the VM.
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Cheers,
Jan
Rao Dronamraju
Dec 8, 2009, 1:53:13 PM12/8/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Hassan,
It appears that you may be misunderstanding when people say "data will be
lost in the clouds". What they are saying is more in reference to data being
lost due to internal threats, hackers getting access and other security
breaches. I do not think they are talking about data being lost due to
physical and logical data storage services provided by the cloud service
providers. For instance, if you are writing data to some persitant data in
the data center, you should be able to do the same in the clouds by mapping
your devices to cloud persitant storage.
About compliance and auditing that is a whole different ball game mainly
because it has not been resolved yet (as far as I know) whether the present
complaince practices in a data center are acceptable AS IS to the auditing
folks. There are a plethora issues here that are being addressed by both
cloud security community and auditing community. You may want to research
the web or talk to Amazon or Rackspace folks about it.
Regards,
Rao
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Steve Hand
Dec 15, 2009, 3:06:04 PM12/15/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
I think you may be missing the point. The question about the location of the data is really not where it is, but where it is not (or rather where is shall not be).
Needing to know where the data actually rests has to do with compliance. Electronic health records are a good example. The caretakers of that information will have to assure us, the owners of our own information, that the data never left a jurisdiction, like the our home country. I think that we would all agree that having locality of the data enforced by government would carry more weight than industry self-governance. If the data ever was stored on a disk outside of our home jurisdiction, then what may be done to that data is entirely in question.
For example, your heath record could be sent to some server in some country that happens to have cheap power or labor, but does not control the privacy of data. Some unscrupulous person may take advantage of lax laws to copy that information for resale to third parties. The data may have been later deleted from where it was original written is said country (perhaps even entirely wiped from the disk). But the damage is done. Who knows what black market of information could arise from lax control of where data is written. Having the data moving from jurisdiction to jurisdiction would certainly scare me, when comes to data like my health records especially in the era were insurance companies are looking for every way to reduce cost.
It is not that cloud computing introduced this problem. It can make it easier for someone to leak data to where it shouldn't go, intensionally or by accident.
Steve
debashish sarkar
Dec 15, 2009, 4:48:52 PM12/15/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Cloud vendors can easily address such concerns. And they will when they are serious about their business.
We are carried away by the word in the literal sense - CLOUD can never represent an un governed environment.
So, do you really ask or wonder, if your bank is protecting your account information from unscrupulous hackers - you expect that they are protecting your data. So would the cloud vendor.
Also, as we all know, many large organizations had outsourced their data centers to managed service providers like IBM even as long ago as the era of Unit Record machines, the IBM 1401 etc. If it worked then, it surely would work now - after all we have made technolgy progress in leaps and bound, haven't we.
By the way, it is impractical and very expensive for an organization to gaurantee that their data is protected (even inside their firewall) especially when their core business is not protecting data. Of course the organization needs to manage and mitigate risks with storing information assets - that is a business process.
Ultimately, service providers will compete with the internal IT organization - that's how we can have meaningful IT organizations - it may even be called something other than an "IT organization".
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:06:04 -0700
Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Tracking and finding data in clouds
From: forke...@gmail.com
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
We are carried away by the word in the literal sense - CLOUD can never represent an un governed environment.
So, do you really ask or wonder, if your bank is protecting your account information from unscrupulous hackers - you expect that they are protecting your data. So would the cloud vendor.
Also, as we all know, many large organizations had outsourced their data centers to managed service providers like IBM even as long ago as the era of Unit Record machines, the IBM 1401 etc. If it worked then, it surely would work now - after all we have made technolgy progress in leaps and bound, haven't we.
By the way, it is impractical and very expensive for an organization to gaurantee that their data is protected (even inside their firewall) especially when their core business is not protecting data. Of course the organization needs to manage and mitigate risks with storing information assets - that is a business process.
Ultimately, service providers will compete with the internal IT organization - that's how we can have meaningful IT organizations - it may even be called something other than an "IT organization".
Debashish Sarkar
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:06:04 -0700
Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Tracking and finding data in clouds
From: forke...@gmail.com
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
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Ray DePena
Dec 15, 2009, 4:54:48 PM12/15/09
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Which in turn has outsourced many of the services provided to other organizations....
(outsource arbitrage is where the money is made)
-RD--
Best Regards,
Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
+1.916.941.5558
Ray.D...@gmail.com
Twitter: @RayDePena
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
(outsource arbitrage is where the money is made)
-RD
Best Regards,
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+1.916.941.5558
Ray.D...@gmail.com
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ken_...@compuserve.com
Dec 15, 2009, 5:00:39 PM12/15/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Steve Hand wrote:
>> your heath record could be sent to some server in some country that
happens to have cheap power or labor, but does not >> control the
privacy of data. Some unscrupulous person may take advantage ...
>> your heath record could be sent to some server in some country that
happens to have cheap power or labor, but does not >> control the
Testimony by Beth Givens of the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse:
"In a widely reported incident, a subcontractor in Pakistan threatened
to expose the personal information contained in the medical records she
was transcribing if she were not paid what she was due."
http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/outsourcing-privacy.htm
A similar dispute involving a data center administrator could
potentially expose many more medical records.
debashish sarkar
Dec 15, 2009, 5:06:41 PM12/15/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
exactly...
the real shift is that companies like IBM have chosen to loose their US identity ( definitely so based on head counts)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:54:48 -0800
the real shift is that companies like IBM have chosen to loose their US identity ( definitely so based on head counts)
Debashish Sarkar
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:54:48 -0800
Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Tracking and finding data in clouds
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Ray DePena
Dec 15, 2009, 5:23:58 PM12/15/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
IBM has long been an international company and given that 65% or so of their revenues come from overseas, it's no surprise that in a globalized world they've taken on more of a global footprint.
-RD
-RD
debashish sarkar
Dec 15, 2009, 5:39:42 PM12/15/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
shocking.... this should certainly be addressed in bi-lateral relationships between countries and the respective government should certainly be held responsible under law....
we have entered the era of globalization and need to progress...not regress.
> To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Tracking and finding data in clouds
> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:00:39 -0500
> From: ken_...@compuserve.com
we have entered the era of globalization and need to progress...not regress.
Debashish Sarkar
> To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Tracking and finding data in clouds
> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:00:39 -0500
> From: ken_...@compuserve.com
> Posting guidelines: http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-questions
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ken_...@compuserve.com
Dec 15, 2009, 5:45:18 PM12/15/09
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Debashish Sarkar wrote:
>> Also, as we all know, many large organizations had outsourced their
data centers to managed service providers like IBM >> even as long ago
as the era of Unit Record machines, the IBM 1401 etc. If it worked
then, it surely would work now - after >> all we have made technolgy
progress in leaps and bound, haven't we.
The threats have grown by leaps and bounds.
>> Also, as we all know, many large organizations had outsourced their
data centers to managed service providers like IBM >> even as long ago
as the era of Unit Record machines, the IBM 1401 etc. If it worked
then, it surely would work now - after >> all we have made technolgy
progress in leaps and bound, haven't we.
In the '60s and '70s, computer security was primarily a question of
physical security. Many data centers had no external connections. In
the IBM 1401 and IBM 360 era, the data center workload consisted of
batch jobs that were locally submitted.
A decade later there were terminals connected to the systems, but they
were wired through terminal controllers and the devices were mostly
located in an organization's physical plant.
Bottom line: In those early years, you almost always had to gain
physical access to a facility to do serious damage.
Networking didn't start gaining traction until the mid '70s. The first
virtual terminal software (allowing a terminal to connect to a remote
host as though it were local) from DEC wasn't released until 1978 or
so, about a decade before DEC engineers published the first paper about
firewall technology. That was several years after Fred Cohen created
the first virus and I'd argue it set the tone for subsequent events;
security technology often lags behind the threats.
Jim Starkey
Dec 15, 2009, 6:26:46 PM12/15/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
debashish sarkar wrote:
Cloud vendors can easily address such concerns. And they will when they are serious about their business.
We are carried away by the word in the literal sense - CLOUD can never represent an un governed environment.
So, do you really ask or wonder, if your bank is protecting your account information from unscrupulous hackers - you expect that they are protecting your data. So would the cloud vendor.
Big difference. A bank has financial responsibility for consequential
damages, a cloud provider, not. That gives the bank a wee bit more
enlightened concern about the security of their data.
Also, as we all know, many large organizations had outsourced their data centers to managed service providers like IBM even as long ago as the era of Unit Record machines, the IBM 1401 etc. If it worked then, it surely would work now - after all we have made technolgy progress in leaps and bound, haven't we.
I don't recall a TCP stack for a 1401 or even an Ethernet board. Or
for that matter, an operating system. What worked for a 4K box with a
1402 card reader/punch does not necessarily work for a cloud supplier
on a public network.
[Disclosure: I did actually hack in to a bank's 1401 in my youth, but only after marching in the front door and asking nicely, "Please, sir, can I use your computer? My school doesn't have one."]
[Disclosure: I did actually hack in to a bank's 1401 in my youth, but only after marching in the front door and asking nicely, "Please, sir, can I use your computer? My school doesn't have one."]
By the way, it is impractical and very expensive for an organization to gaurantee that their data is protected (even inside their firewall) especially when their core business is not protecting data. Of course the organization needs to manage and mitigate risks with storing information assets - that is a business process.
Guarantee isn't sufficient. Indemnification is what's necessary.
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Ray DePena
Dec 15, 2009, 7:18:13 PM12/15/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Not to mention that banks are subject to regulatory oversight.....
-RD
-RD
Greg Pfister
Dec 16, 2009, 11:19:33 PM12/16/09
to Cloud Computing
On Dec 15, 3:23 pm, Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IBM has long been an international company and given that 65% or so of their
> revenues come from overseas, it's no surprise that in a globalized world
> they've taken on more of a global footprint.
> IBM has long been an international company and given that 65% or so of their
> revenues come from overseas, it's no surprise that in a globalized world
> they've taken on more of a global footprint.
A bit of pedantic hair-splitting:
IBM has *always* been an international company. It was originally
created by merging companies operating in the US (NY State) and
Canada. (As I recall, one made time clocks, and the other made meat
scales.)
This doesn't in any way detract from your point, of course, which is
completely true.
Greg Pfister
http://perilsofparallel.blogspot.com/
>
> -RD
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:06 PM, debashish sarkar <d_sar...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > exactly...
>
> > the real shift is that companies like IBM have chosen to loose their US
> > identity ( definitely so based on head counts)
>
> > Debashish Sarkar
>
> > ------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:54:48 -0800
>
> > Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Tracking and finding data in clouds
> > From: ray.dep...@gmail.com
>
> > To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
>
> > Which in turn has outsourced many of the services provided to other
> > organizations....
> > (outsource arbitrage is where the money is made)
>
> > -RD
>
> > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:48 PM, debashish sarkar <d_sar...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Cloud vendors can easily address such concerns. And they will when they are
> > serious about their business.
>
> > We are carried away by the word in the literal sense - CLOUD can never
> > represent an un governed environment.
>
> > So, do you really ask or wonder, if your bank is protecting your account
> > information from unscrupulous hackers - you expect that they are protecting
> > your data. So would the cloud vendor.
>
> > Also, as we all know, *many large organizations had outsourced their data
> > centers to managed service providers like IBM *even as long ago as the era
> > of Unit Record machines, the IBM 1401 etc. If it worked then, it surely
> > would work now - after all we have made technolgy progress in leaps and
> > bound, haven't we.
>
> > By the way, it is impractical and very expensive for an organization to
> > gaurantee that their data is protected (even inside their firewall)
> > especially when their core business is not protecting data. Of course the
> > organization needs to manage and mitigate risks with storing information
> > assets - that is a business process.
>
> > Ultimately, service providers will compete with the internal IT
> > organization - that's how we can have meaningful IT organizations - it may
> > even be called something other than an "IT organization".
>
> > Debashish Sarkar
>
> > ------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:06:04 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Tracking and finding data in clouds
> > From: forkedn...@gmail.com
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> > --
> > Best Regards,
>
> > Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
> > +1.916.941.5558
> > Twitter: @RayDePena
> > LinkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
>
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