Difference Between Cloud and cluster Computing

[vasant tiwari]

Hi all,

As I am progressing with my work towards setting up a private cloud, I came across a situation. I have got 16 blade servers and 100 desktop computers with good configuration.

Now I want while creating the cloud, I am using the blade servers for all the storage and running instances. I mean the whole computing power will reside on blade servers. The desktops take role of thin clients.

Now my confusion is that does not this make my blade servers similar to cluster server ?????

Again I would like to include my Desktops also in the cloud because they have much better configuration than thin clients. So can anyone please suggest me how can I utilize these desktops in my cloud setup.

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Thank You and Regards,

Vasant Kumar Tiwari,

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[Ivo Murris]

Basically, you are creating a hosted virtual desktop infrastructure (acronyms HVD, VDI, DaaS). This usually means the users’ desktop is running on the blades and you are using a remoting protocol like RDP or ICA to get the desktop UI from the blades to the clients. What you want is real grid computing, where the CPU/RAM etc from the ‘cloud’ of clients and servers is spread and reused. That is possible but is not really done for standard desktops, more for certain grid ready applications like SETI and others.

 

The best way to use the local CPU of the clients is offloading some performance like video and 3D graphics from the blades to the clients, which means the remoting protocol must understand what it’s displaying and have clients with the ability to display the DVD’s, flash, OpenGL using the local hardware. Citrix’s ICA/HDX protocol knows how to do this, Microsoft’s RDP 7 and Teradici’s PC over IP protocols as well.

 

So, you have to know what to offload to the clients and then what remoting protocol to use. I assume RDP will be ported to separate clients for Linux and most Windows flavors in time.

 

Kind regards,

 

Ivo Murris (mailto:i.mu...@cdg.nl)

[Sachin Duggal]

Either terminal service, citrix or vdi.

If you want - email m...@nivio.com for more info - he runs are infra team.

S

Sachin Duggal
Nivio

Sent from myWorld Mobile Messenger...

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From: vasant tiwari
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 23:05:27 +0530

To: <cloud-c...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Difference Between Cloud and cluster Computing

[Joseph G. Baron]

Vasant, almost any batch workload manager, aka distributed resource
manager, such as PBS, Torque, Condor, LSF, (...and dozens more) has a
feature usually called "desktop cycle scavenging", which allows idle
desktops PCs to become (at least temporarily) part of your cluster /
cloud. All you need is some kind of network shared storage for
executables and data, and usually a small agent (distributed as part
of the batch system) to run on each desktop that detects when the PC
is idle. Most of these scavenging systems will submit appropriate jobs
to the idle PCs, and then if the interactive user returns and moves
the mouse, the job is just cancelled and requeued somewhere else.

—Joe
Sent from my iPhone (919) 809-9542

[Jeanne Morain]

Hmmm - is that what the person is asking?  I see they have servers and want to use desktops/laptops.  Are you creating a Hosted Virtual Desktop infrastructure?  What would be more helpful to understand is what are the business requirements here - what applications, end user profiles etc are being met.   Attached is a use case that Amazon is publishing on the Global Data Systems Use case leveraging InstallFree Application Virtualization, Amazon AWS and GE Centricity.  Here is one example of using Application Virtualization and Cloud Computing to solve a real world scenario.

Some food for thought on a side note:

Most remote display protocols graphical processing can be somewhat lacking for critical digital images such as MRIs, etc that are needed in healthcare.  Some Virtual desktop solutions may also require other tools to enable printing and processing like ThinPrint.  Not all desktops/laptops will be able to support HVD.  For example - Sony Vaio does not have the processor virtualization capabilities turned on to support hypervisors.  It is critical when planning these types of implementations that  one understands the technical limitations of the the legacy systems as well as the requirements.  The perceived hardware tax was a BIG issue on why many companies did not move to Vista...better to plan ahead that have objections before you start.

Key thing to remember is there is a BIG difference between managing a desktop and servers.  I could write volumes here.  Most hit issues when it comes to latency, updates, offline usage, backup and recovery(drift of a desktop can be quite substantial), and hit rate.  Moving the applications to a different environment is doubling that load and still not solving the issues of app compatability but moving them to another workspace.  Requirements are key here - there are some really good uses cases like call centers, outsourcing, and compliance (Personal health information acts in certain countries for example require the data is kept in the country of origin).

Also remember you will need to consider i/o - that typically is the bottle neck for virtual desktops and in general - all the RAM and CPU in the world will help if your I/0 bound. 

Desktop Virt definitely has it's place but the TCO/ROI needs to fit the business requirements.  Compliance is a big driver here but HVD does not address offline requirements here.  This is still a nascent market.

We are giving a leadership panel tomorrow with BMC on Cloud & Compliance addressing how Desktop Virt, App Virt, etc impacts cloud, some considerations from customers that have deployed, etc..  URL is below for those that want to attend.

http://www.bmc.com/events/webinar/Cloud-Compliance-and-Virtualization-Industry-Panel-Webinar.html

Regards,
Jeanne

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From: Ivo Murris <i.mu...@cdg.nl>
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 1:46:56 PM
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Difference Between Cloud and cluster Computing

[Dave Levy]

I feel that the difference between an HPC platform and a Cloud
Computing platform can be marginal at times. Critically a Cloud needs
to run many applications and will usually virtualise the platform to
provide run time containers of some sort. (I use container in a
generic or meta sense and some will say must not usually. )

If you use containers or thick virtualisation technologues such as
vmware or virtual box, you can distribute your cloud's processing
capability across your desktop estate by having the job scheduler ask
a desktop system to run a VM.

Alternatively you could deploy the desktop into a VM, and have the
desktop systems boot the desktop VM, run it in foreground for the
desktop system user and incorporate the desktop system OS into the
cloud resource pool.

Otherwise you could borrow the models of the previous correspondents
and implement a VDI solution and so the desktops run anywhere in the
cloud but display on the desktop systems and then include the desktop
systems in your cloud resource pool.

This all depends on the functionality of your job scheduler and
elasticity implementation.

Dave Levy
Hampshire, England

On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, vasant tiwari <hawkeye2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> As I am progressing with my work towards setting up a private cloud, I came
> across a situation. I have got 16 blade servers and 100 desktop computers
> with good configuration.
>
> Now I want while creating the cloud, I am using the blade servers for all
> the storage and running instances. I mean the whole computing power will
> reside on blade servers. The desktops take role of thin clients.
>

> Now my confusion is that *does not this make my blade servers similar to
> cluster server ?????*

>
> Again I would like to include my Desktops also in the cloud because they
> have much better configuration than thin clients. So can anyone please

> suggest me how can* I utilize these desktops in my cloud setup. *

[Gilad Parann-Nissany]

Hi Vasant

The other posts (@Ivo, @Sachin) suggested virtualization solutions (VMWare, Citrix, etc). These are sensible ideas, yet let me suggest a different alternative.

First, its correct (as Ivo notes) that "offloading some performance like video and 3D graphics from the blades to the clients" can be one good way to utilize client processing power.

I'd like to add that a standard Web setup - the blades running the servers and the clients running the browsers - may well do that too. The videos etc would of course run on the clients using browser plugins. All modern browsers have the right plugins (often out of the box).

If you really want to go beyond that and utilize your desktops for "server loads", you would have to set up a "grid" on your desktops. I do not know if it is worth the hassle to you - up to you - but can be done.

I think advice beyond that - really depends on the specific apps and loads you want to run. Based on what you've said so far, my personal advice is "keep it simple" and stick to a super-simple web-like configuration; it isn't flashy but it can work and its easy. Maybe this is the wrong advice for you - depending on what apps you want to run; you'd have to give more detail.

Finally, your question "does not this make my blade servers similar to cluster server?". The simple answer is yes. We have to separate hype from technology and architecture. Of course modern cloud technology relies a lot on clustering & virtualization technologies.

In your scenario you do not seem to be using some of the "special" characteristics of clouds, like flexible allocation (automatic addition / removal of servers based on load) or usage-based billing. So the difference between what you are doing and a cluster may not be so big.

Don't be disappointed - your question was an excellent one. You are still working with technology that makes modern clouds possible. But we all just need to remember - the "cloud" is primarily not a technology revolution, many of the bits and pieces of the technology are also used elsewhere and were invented for other purposes.

Rather the cloud is a revolution in operations and economics. The combination - in the right way - of a lot of technologies has made it possible

Have fun.

Regards
Gilad
__________________
Gilad Parann-Nissany
http://www.parann.net/

[Jan Klincewicz]

I agree with Gilad. If you skip the necessity of using the term
"private cloud" you open yourself up to a lot of technologies which
may or may not be included in that restrictive term. Though you have
expressed that you have powerful clients, people start recommending
overly complex solutions like VDI or XenDesktop to meet your
definition even though such approaches ignore the power of your
clients. Worry more about what you are trying to achieve and less
about whether to call it a "cloud/cluster/grid" and you will likely
have more fruitful interactions.

--
Cheers,
Jan

[Jan Klincewicz]

I think Vasant has provided insufficient information about what he is
trying to accomplish for anyone to infer a solution.

1. "Private Cloud" has not been defined to the extent that anyone
knows what he means when he says he is setting one up.

2. The fact that the servers are blades implies that there MAY be some
kind of rapid deployment method, which would be valuable in a cloud
architecture, but we do not know this.

3. There is no mention of shared storage or OS which gives us
insufficient data to make assumptions about grids or clusters or
viable HA Virtualization platforms.

4. He states that the desktop will take the role of "thin client" but
also that they are configured more robustly than this role requires,
and says he would like them to participate in is cloud (but does not
specifically state that their role will be other than as clients.

I conclude that the question posed is so vague and lacking essential
detail that to attempt to answer it with a proposed solution is
somewhat of a waste of time.

Perhaps if Vasant were to articulate his goals (and describe his
environment) in greater detail, it would be possible to suggest
answers which reflect more than educated guesswork.

>> As I am progressing with my work towards setting up a private cloud, I came
>> across a situation. I have got 16 blade servers and 100 desktop computers
>> with good configuration.
>>
>> Now I want while creating the cloud, I am using the blade servers for all
>> the storage and running instances. I mean the whole computing power will
>> reside on blade servers. The desktops take role of thin clients.
>>
>> Now my confusion is that *does not this make my blade servers similar to
>> cluster server ?????*
>>
>> Again I would like to include my Desktops also in the cloud because they
>> have much better configuration than thin clients. So can anyone please
>> suggest me how can* I utilize these desktops in my cloud setup. *
>>
>> --
>> *******************************************
>> Thank You and Regards,
>>
>> Vasant Kumar Tiwari,
>>
>> *******************************************
>
> >
>

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Cheers,
Jan