Rationale: cljctools.mult - hypothetical clojure(script) extension for vscode. Should mult be made? Critique, comments ?

[Sergei Udris]

# mult: hypothetical clojure(script) extension for vscode

https://github.com/cljctools/mult

## rationale

- clojure(script) IDE experience is no minor issue - it's the thing between you and programs

- the editor and the extension 
  - should be long-term satisfactory, enjoyable and even inspiring
  - should be open source
  - should be written in clojure, or at least the extension should be written in clojure(script)
    - for simplicity
    - for asynchrony done via processes
- the extension should
  - support multiple repl connections from one editor window
  - have a file configuration (for user and projects), where connections and repls can be specified (to not depend on key-combo connection sequences)
  - be simpler, code-wise and feature-wise 
- making an editor in clojure is, no doubt, a goal, but the extension for an existing editor is a logical first step
  - the work of making an extension is trasferrable even into an editor written in clojure, so the work won't be lost
- existing editor + extension combos
  - Emacs + Cider
    - perfect, if you're into it
  - IntelliJ + Cursive
    - both closed source, Cursive comes with conditions
  - VSCode + Calva
    - can be considered the current best option
    - VSCode is the undeniable best open source editor
    - Calva works perfectly, but is written in typescript
    - nodejs runtime is undesirable, but not a problem

Should mult be made ? Critique, comments are appreciated.

Rationale can also be found here(same):

https://github.com/cljctools/mult/blob/master/docs/design.md#rationale

Same post can be found on a separate mailing list:

https://groups.google.com/g/cljctools/c/Qyz0qCxVC-Y

[Peter Strömberg]

Looks super interesting! Some quick thoughts/questions:

Why is it a goal to write an editor in Clojure? Would this editor be a general one, or would it be a Clojure editor? 

I am of course happy you see Calva as a good option for Clojure coding. I think the major thing lacking from it is Socket REPL support. That makes me think about Clover, from the same author as Chlorine for Atom. Chlorine ticks off a lot of your boxes. Clover is currently of a much more limited use than Chlorine, because reasons. One of which is that Clojure coding is about more than the REPL, and some of that is a lot of work and Calva is a bit of a monolith making its formatter and stuff part of the Calva package only. I have tried to refactor Calva some to make it less monolithic so that Clover could benefit from some of the work that has been put into making Calva nice. But I got stuck, or rather ran out of time. One way forward for mult could be to pick up Clover + help in refactoring Calva to make parts of it usable by Clover users.

Another way forward could be to start porting more of Calva to ClojureScript (it is partly written in CLJS, actually). I have made several attempts at this, but always found my time to be too limited to not spend on actually making Calva more usable instead.

I think (and maybe it is me being biased) that beginning Clojurians benefit from one clear option for VS Code, so I think the second way forward there is the best.

I'm plugging the Tao of Calva here, for easy comparison between the goals of mult and the goals of Calva: https://github.com/BetterThanTomorrow/calva/wiki

Regards,

/Peter

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Clojure" group.
To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com
Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
clojure+u...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/clojure/CA%2Bq3MLzN-X9GNyGqwPT9aHg0YNJHC_YrUR098ukhbqwWdSFcgg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Sergei Udris]

Do appreciate your response, better than I hoped for, will digest it and take into consideration.

The goal is not vanity, but creating value, so mult is not a rush to prove oneself. 

Will take all the critique and comments and seriously think whether or not mult brings value. If not, I won't waste time with it.

>> Why is it a goal to write an editor in Clojure? Would this editor be a general one, or would it be a Clojure editor? 

- if vscode is the current best, even that can be improved (but that's a rationale of its own) 

- a general one

>> That makes me think about Clover, from the same author as Chlorine for Atom

- did not no about those tools, definitely will take a look, thank you

>> so that Clover could benefit from some of the work that has been put into making Calva nice

- Calva is indeed a trailblazing project and amazing work

>> One way forward for mult could be to pick up Clover + help in refactoring Calva to make parts of it usable by Clover users

- yes, that was my initial thinking, that's why I forked Calva and wanted to modify it for my needs

- I lived and breathed Typescript for many years, did multiple large commercial monster projects in it, so I thought I just tweak Calva and make it mult-y

- but doing things in clojure(script) is much more productive, especially handling asynchrony with core.async (CSP) - that has no analogs, besides golang, so core.async is the key

 >> but always found my time to be too limited to not spend on actually making Calva more usable instead

- oh, I can't thank you enough, without Calva it would be dim, and I do understand that it's not all rainbows and unicorns, sometimes one just needs to get it done 

>> I think (and maybe it is me being biased) that beginning Clojurians benefit from one clear option for VS Code, so I think the second way forward there is the best.

- I disagree, I think choice(options) is better

- but again, mult is under question and will be thoroughly considered