slackpocalypse?

[Gregg Reynolds]

is it just me? i've been unable to connect to clojurians (by cellphone) for about 30 minutes, but i can connect to other slack groups.

have we hit https://github.com/clojurians/clojurians-chat/wiki/Slackpocalypse?  we're almost to 10K subscribers.

g

[Kenny Williams]

I am not able to connect via the web UI or Slack app either.

[Gregg Reynolds]

On May 18, 2017 3:17 PM, "Kenny Williams" <kenny...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am not able to connect via the web UI or Slack app either.

slack = bitkeeper?  i wonder if linus torvalds is busy.

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 1:15:17 PM UTC-7, Gregg Reynolds wrote:

is it just me? i've been unable to connect to clojurians (by cellphone) for about 30 minutes, but i can connect to other slack groups.

have we hit https://github.com/clojurians/clojurians-chat/wiki/Slackpocalypse?  we're almost to 10K subscribers.

g

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[Jason Stewart]

I'm experiencing the same thing, while I am able to connect with my other slack teams.

[Gregg Reynolds]

On May 18, 2017 3:32 PM, "Jason Stewart" <jste...@fusionary.com> wrote:

I'm experiencing the same thing, while I am able to connect with my other slack teams.

this is not looking good.  https://davechen.net/2017/01/slack-user-limit/

[Dragan Djuric]

It works for me as always.

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 10:34:33 PM UTC+2, Gregg Reynolds wrote:

On May 18, 2017 3:32 PM, "Jason Stewart" <jste...@fusionary.com> wrote:

I'm experiencing the same thing, while I am able to connect with my other slack teams.

this is not looking good.  https://davechen.net/2017/01/slack-user-limit/

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Kenny Williams <kenny...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am not able to connect via the web UI or Slack app either.

On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 1:15:17 PM UTC-7, Gregg Reynolds wrote:

is it just me? i've been unable to connect to clojurians (by cellphone) for about 30 minutes, but i can connect to other slack groups.

have we hit https://github.com/clojurians/clojurians-chat/wiki/Slackpocalypse?  we're almost to 10K subscribers.

g

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[Timothy Baldridge]

It's not working for me. I'm in the US, connecting via Chrome.

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[Gregg Reynolds]

On May 18, 2017 3:40 PM, "Dragan Djuric" <drag...@gmail.com> wrote:

It works for me as always.

hmm, maybe it's a hiccup.  where are you located, if you don't mind my asking.

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[Dragan Djuric]

Southeast Europe.

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[Gregg Reynolds]

looks like access is restored, for me at least.  still, slack is making me a little nervous. and that's in addition to the 10K msg limit, which is a pain.  anybody know antything about ryver? https://ryver.com/ryver-vs-slack/

[Timothy Baldridge]

You know, there's this awesome bit of tech called IRC...someone should check that out.

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[Gregg Reynolds]

On May 18, 2017 5:06 PM, "Timothy Baldridge" <tbald...@gmail.com> wrote:

You know, there's this awesome bit of tech called IRC...someone should check that out.

that is so 90s!

[Gregg Reynolds]

On May 18, 2017 5:06 PM, "Timothy Baldridge" <tbald...@gmail.com> wrote:

You know, there's this awesome bit of tech called IRC...someone should check that out.

there's also this "email" thing people are talking about, but i don't really understand it.  a series of tubes of some kind, i gather.

[Paul Fernhout]

Here is an essay I wrote in January 2016 against using Slack for FOSS (which cites that Ryver page):
http://pdfernhout.net/reasons-not-to-use-slack-for-free-software-development.html

The biggest practical issue (ignoring philosophical ones or theoretical ones) is probably "Slack is focused on teams, not communities".

The essay mentions some FOSS alternatives including Mattermost (which can import Slack history) and Matrix.org (which is decentralized).

Perhaps someone knows if there is already a Clojure/ClojureScript frontend to Matrix.org? :-)

--Paul Fernhout (pdfernhout.net)
"The biggest challenge of the 21st century is the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity."

[Cam Peterson]

A company I did some work for adopted Ryver for the very reason that it was the "free" alternative to Slack. While it did most of the job as the company's comm bus, my experience was that they are a far cry from Slack. The integration story is weak too. This crowd would not be happy with Ryver, though it's not a bad choice for a smaller company that needs free chat.

[Herwig Hochleitner]

In any such discussion, I'll heavily favor matrix.org. To me, decentralization seems inevitable and I hope that it will already carry, what marketers will be calling web 3.0. Current matrix.org infrastructure is only semi-decentralized (similar to xmpp), but the data model is already built with full decentralization in mind and current matrix clients are already pretty complete and user friendly.

That said, I'm not aware of any existing Clojure/ClojureScript integration, but I fathom it would be natural to just use https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-js-sdk from ClojureScript.

Also, have a look at the Clojure Community channel (bridged to a slack channel): https://riot.im/app/#/room/#clojure-community:matrix.org

and the IRC bridge channel: https://riot.im/app/#/room/#clojure:matrix.org

[Herwig Hochleitner]

As I said in the other thread, let's migrate to matrix.org: https://riot.im/app/#/room/#clojure:matrix.org

There, if the official servers ever get overloaded/dropped/monetized, we can just start hosting our own server without loosing any history.

Also it has no message limit and full searchability.

​

[Mars0i]

I have no opinion, but fwiw the OCaml folks began experimenting with Discourse about a week ago: https://discuss.ocaml.org.

This isn't really an IRC/Slack style platform, afaics, but the discussions that led up to it included concern about Slack's message limit. (These discussions can be found on the Google OCaml Aggregation list starting last summer.)

[Lee Spector]

FWIW my research group used Slack for a while, but we switched to Discourse close to two years ago and have been quite happy with it (https://push-language.hampshire.edu, although only a tiny subset is publicly viewable).

We're a much smaller community, with different needs, but still, I can attest to Discourse being nice in several ways. Among other things, it seems to encourage more deliberative interactions than I generally see on Slack, with a better mix of rapid communication with longer-term documentation.

-Lee

[Gregg Reynolds]

On May 19, 2017 2:11 PM, "'Lee Spector' via Clojure" <clo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

FWIW my research group used Slack for a while, but we switched to Discourse close to two years ago and have been quite happy with it (https://push-language.hampshire.edu, although only a tiny subset is publicly viewable).

We're a much smaller community, with different needs, but still, I can attest to Discourse being nice in several ways. Among other things, it seems to encourage more deliberative interactions than I generally see on Slack, with a better mix of rapid communication with longer-term documentation.

I'm inclined to think moving away from slack would be wise, but only with the blessing of the core Clojure team.  After all any of us could set up something on matrix or discourse etc. but if successful that would lead to fragmentation of the community.

I wonder what the thinking within the core team is on this.

g

[Alex Miller]

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 2:27:35 PM UTC-5, Gregg Reynolds wrote:

I'm inclined to think moving away from slack would be wise, but only with the blessing of the core Clojure team.  After all any of us could set up something on matrix or discourse etc. but if successful that would lead to fragmentation of the community.

I wonder what the thinking within the core team is on this.

Our "official" channels for Clojure discussion are the clojure, clojurescript, and clojure-dev mailing lists. We moderate and maintain these lists.

The Clojure/core team has no involvement with the creation or management of the Clojurians Slack channel. The community does not need our blessing to set up a discussion forum - we're happy to have more places for Clojure folks to talk about Clojure. I'd rather have the community decide what they want to do - we (the core team) are not looking to add additional moderation/admin duties beyond what we currently do. Perhaps the new group that was established under the Software Freedom Conservancy could be of assistance in choosing and managing a preferred forum.

I personally monitor (to varying degrees): the mailing lists, Slack, #clojure on irc, clojure subreddit, and Twitter and try to answer questions in those locations based on my available time to do so.

Alex

 

[Gregg Reynolds]

On May 19, 2017 2:57 PM, "Alex Miller" <al...@puredanger.com> wrote:

On Friday, May 19, 2017 at 2:27:35 PM UTC-5, Gregg Reynolds wrote:

I'm inclined to think moving away from slack would be wise, but only with the blessing of the core Clojure team.  After all any of us could set up something on matrix or discourse etc. but if successful that would lead to fragmentation of the community.

I wonder what the thinking within the core team is on this.

Our "official" channels for Clojure discussion are the clojure, clojurescript, and clojure-dev mailing lists. We moderate and maintain these lists.

The Clojure/core team has no involvement with the creation or management of the Clojurians Slack channel. The community does not need our blessing to set up a discussion forum - we're happy to have more places for Clojure folks to talk about Clojure. I'd rather have the community decide what they want to do - we (the core team) are not looking to add additional moderation/admin duties beyond what we currently do.

gee, why not?  ;)

Perhaps the new group that was established under the Software Freedom Conservancy could be of assistance in choosing and managing a preferred forum.

link?

I don't have time to figger out how to do this correctly at the moment, but some kind of survey of folks on the various comm. channels seems to be in order. Some topics, loosely: given what we (think we) know about slack, is that a prob?  if we wanted to go elsewhere, where would that be?  if we did go elsewhere, would you, too?  etc.  Volunteers?

moving from slack to sth else would be a big job.

I personally monitor (to varying degrees): the mailing lists, Slack, #clojure on irc, clojure subreddit, and Twitter and try to answer questions in those locations based on my available time to do so.

for the record you and your colleagues (including all the volunteers) do an amazing job!

Alex

 

[Mars0i]

Slack is working for me today.  There are posts in the Clojure channel, for example, from just two hours ago.  Maybe the end of the world didn't occur?  On the other hand, the Specter channel says only "To see this channel's full history, upgrade to one of our paid plans."  I'm not sure I understand.  Is the idea that old posts are simply getting dropped to retain no more than 10K posts, and there have been 10K since the last Specter post?  I'm a little bit confused by the whole situation.  I was a latecomer to Slack, and still don't use it as much as some other folks.  Did we start using Slack knowing that one day it would be cut off when there were too many posts?

(I haven't tried the new Discord group yet, and as I've said earlier, have no opinions about relative benefits of different post-IRC platforms.  I've also heard positive things about Gitter btw; it wasn't mentioned earlier in this thread.  I do think there might be benefit to using fewer rather than more of these options.)

[Gregg Reynolds]

just for fun i posted a mini-survey on #clojure (on slack clojurians) asking more or less, "should we dump slack?"  

after almost 24 hours, the results are in:

yea: 7

nay: 3

chicken:  5

a whopping response rate of 15 out of about 10K!

Conclusion: not perceived as a big issue.

On May 20, 2017 12:21 PM, "Mars0i" <mars...@logical.net> wrote:

Slack is working for me today.  There are posts in the Clojure channel, for example, from just two hours ago.  Maybe the end of the world didn't occur?  On the other hand, the Specter channel says only "To see this channel's full history, upgrade to one of our paid plans."  I'm not sure I understand.  Is the idea that old posts are simply getting dropped to retain no more than 10K posts, and there have been 10K since the last Specter post?  I'm a little bit confused by the whole situation.  I was a latecomer to Slack, and still don't use it as much as some other folks.  Did we start using Slack knowing that one day it would be cut off when there were too many posts?

(I haven't tried the new Discord group yet, and as I've said earlier, have no opinions about relative benefits of different post-IRC platforms.  I've also heard positive things about Gitter btw; it wasn't mentioned earlier in this thread.  I do think there might be benefit to using fewer rather than more of these options.)

[Alan Moore]

I found the Slack (and IRC) channel most useful for quick questions I need immediate feedback for. I found myself missing the email traffic that used to happen on this list but has gone over to Slack. Maybe it is the search that I found lacking or just the effort one usually puts into forming a solid question via email that doesn't seem to happen on Slack and IRC derivatives.

I don't have any strong moral objections to using non-FOSS tools so long as the company/group isn't going to pivot and monitize our content. My concerns are more practical and unfortunately it seems email lists are the most stable & sustainable.

In other news... I'm designing/building a community platform (targeted specifically at software development) in Clojure & ClojureScript, that includes chat and mailing lists, but it isn't *anywhere* near ready. Initially I am leveraging GitLab & Mattermost until the Clojure versions (or integrations?) are ready. I have larger plans involving cooperatives that make it worth having access in Clojure & ClojureScript. Maybe some time in the next year it will be ready for a community as large as this... or not. If anyone is interested in helping design or build it feel free to ping me offline at alan coopsource org, w/ the usual punctuation implied.

My 2ct.

Alan

[Ravindra Jaju]

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:51 PM, Mars0i <mars...@logical.net> wrote:

Slack is working for me today.  There are posts in the Clojure channel, for example, from just two hours ago.  Maybe the end of the world didn't occur?  On the other hand, the Specter channel says only "To see this channel's full history, upgrade to one of our paid plans."  I'm not sure I understand.  Is the idea that old posts are simply getting dropped to retain no more than 10K posts, and there have been 10K since the last Specter post?  I'm a little bit confused by the whole situation.  I was a latecomer to Slack, and still don't use it as much as some other folks.  Did we start using Slack knowing that one day it would be cut off when there were too many posts?

My understanding is that the 10K limit applies to an entire "organization." A busy channel will drown others.

[Gregg Reynolds]

Took a quick look.  I must say the UI is not particularly impressive.  So far, I find discord much more intuitive. 

[Herwig Hochleitner]

2017-05-22 0:28 GMT+02:00 Gregg Reynolds <d...@mobileink.com>:

Took a quick look.  I must say the UI is not particularly impressive.  So far, I find discord much more intuitive.

If discord was decentralized _and_ open source, then I'd say we could have this comparison.

As it is, I'd much rather forfeit some user-friendliness and take the opportunity to improve one of the various clients or write my own (how many clients does discord offer? http://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now.html) over getting locked into yet another proprietary silo and finding myself at yet another dead-end sooner or later.

Also, development is steady and I've already witnessed some pretty cool improvements over the short months I'm using it.

Also, it can immediately replace your IRC client (thanks to its IRC bridge) and even give you message persistence as an added benefit, in effect it can already be your IRC bouncer without you running anything.

[Gregg Reynolds]

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Herwig Hochleitner <hhochl...@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-05-22 0:28 GMT+02:00 Gregg Reynolds <d...@mobileink.com>:

Took a quick look.  I must say the UI is not particularly impressive.  So far, I find discord much more intuitive.

If discord was decentralized _and_ open source, then I'd say we could have this comparison.

Yikes.  I had assumed it was open, since that's the motivation for moving off slack, and didn't bother to look. 

As it is, I'd much rather forfeit some user-friendliness and take the opportunity to improve one of the various clients or write my own (how many clients does discord offer? http://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now.html) over getting locked into yet another proprietary silo and finding myself at yet another dead-end sooner or later.

Took a closer look - now I remember where I saw matrix before, they participate in tadhacks.  It's not really an app, much more ambitious than that.  Definitely deserves a closer look.

G

 

Also, development is steady and I've already witnessed some pretty cool improvements over the short months I'm using it.

Also, it can immediately replace your IRC client (thanks to its IRC bridge) and even give you message persistence as an added benefit, in effect it can already be your IRC bouncer without you running anything.

--

[Herwig Hochleitner]

2017-05-22 15:50 GMT+02:00 Gregg Reynolds <d...@mobileink.com>:

Took a closer look - now I remember where I saw matrix before, they participate in tadhacks.  It's not really an app, much more ambitious than that.  Definitely deserves a closer look.

Yes, it's a decentralized persistent chat protocol with bridging between silos in mind. This current talk does a pretty good job of explaining it: https://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/fosdem-video/2017/Janson/encrypting_matrix.mp4

[Colin Fleming]

There's been a lot of discussion around this, there's a page about the possibility of moving to Matrix here: https://hackpad.com/The-case-for-Matrix-xRXYSO9zpyh. While it has some nice properties (decentralised, open, can be encrypted etc) it comes at a serious usability cost. I doubt the whole community would want to move there from Slack.

Personally I'd prefer Discord, since I use these things for support and my main requirements are that a) people can find me easily, b) everything works with no hassle and c) old conversations don't disappear. Matrix fails pretty badly on a), is ok with some serious usability issues on b) and is ok for c), modulo that searching is a pain (can either search a single room or all rooms, not all Clojure-related ones).

Really, my only actual problem with Slack is the disappearing messages, but that is bad enough that I definitely think we should move. I vote Discord.

[Herwig Hochleitner]

2017-05-23 12:19 GMT+02:00 Colin Fleming <colin.ma...@gmail.com>:

 I doubt the whole community would want to move there from Slack

 

I doubt the whole community would want to move anywhere from Slack.

my main requirements are that a) people can find me easily, b) everything works with no hassle and c) old conversations don't disappear. Matrix fails pretty badly on a), is ok with some serious usability issues on b) and is ok for c), modulo that searching is a pain (can either search a single room or all rooms, not all Clojure-related ones).

What would you need to solve your discoverability issues (a)? Isn't it as easy as handing out a link like https://riot.im/app/#/room/#clojure-community:matrix.org ? Not even registration needed.

[Colin Fleming]

On 24 May 2017 at 00:13, Herwig Hochleitner <hhochl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I doubt the whole community would want to move anywhere from Slack.

Perhaps this will have to wait until Slack inevitably throws us off, then.

What would you need to solve your discoverability issues (a)? Isn't it as easy as handing out a link like https://riot.im/app/#/room/#clojure-community:matrix.org ? Not even registration needed.

It's a far cry from searching for "cursive" from anywhere in Clojurians, though. Searching for channels based on some vague criteria seemed difficult, and searching for Clojure related content across channels is also a pretty bad experience. There has been some talk of making a Clojure-related room directory in an external webpage or something but it's still a kludge. I'm not sure to what extent this would be fixed if we ran our own room server, but then someone has to maintain that.

[Andy Fingerhut]

I have no skin in this game, but wasn't the move to Slack pretty much a "vote with your feet" combined with word of mouth advertising?  It seems to me the same could happen to add another on-line chat tool/system, without anyone taking a poll/voting on this or any other medium.  We'll know when it has happened by the rumor mill on Slack, IRC, and/or this email group.

Andy

[Alan Moore]

I watched the matrix video linked above and it seems there is a Slack bridge that would allow Slack fans to stay put and others to choose their own client or even go back to IRC. What am I missing?

I too have no skin in this game... I still prefer this mailing list, as is self evident. I suppose I could build a matrix bridge for Google Groups.

Alan

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[Herwig Hochleitner]

2017-05-23 23:04 GMT+02:00 Colin Fleming <colin.ma...@gmail.com>:

On 24 May 2017 at 00:13, Herwig Hochleitner <hhochl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I doubt the whole community would want to move anywhere from Slack.

Perhaps this will have to wait until Slack inevitably throws us off, then.

What I'm saying is, that the whole community isn't in a single place anyway. Slack happens to be most popular, right now, but we are spread across IRC, gitter / github, slack, mailing lists, discord, stack overflow, reddit and probably many more.

IMO trying to move everybody to one thing is an exercise in futility, but consuming / producing to / from all those places through a generic protocol is a realistic hope, as matrix is proving right now. 

It's a far cry from searching for "cursive" from anywhere in Clojurians, though. Searching for channels based on some vague criteria seemed difficult, and searching for Clojure related content across channels is also a pretty bad experience.

Granted, matrix' search facilities are far from optimal, as of now. But unlike the alternatives, just about everybody could be (and somebody probably is) improving on that.

There has been some talk of making a Clojure-related room directory in an external webpage or something but it's still a kludge. I'm not sure to what extent this would be fixed if we ran our own room server, but then someone has to maintain that.

Same. This is currently being worked on: https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/2454

I'd just like to mention, that in the year or so, that I've been using matrix, the stream of improvements has been pretty steady. So while it might not currently do everything we need, it's the best hope for bridging the community across all the various services that (will continue to) exist.

2017-05-23 23:31 GMT+02:00 Alan Moore <kahun...@coopsource.org>:

I watched the matrix video linked above and it seems there is a Slack bridge that would allow Slack fans to stay put and others to choose their own client or even go back to IRC. What am I missing?

The slack bridge is working fine, but slack has a nagging limitation of one bridged room per organization or some "monetization incentive" like that.

If slack allowed a full bridge, "slackpocalypse" and its message limit would already be a solved problem. Such are the ways of proprietary services ...

I too have no skin in this game... I still prefer this mailing list, as is self evident. I suppose I could build a matrix bridge for Google Groups.

related: https://github.com/turt2live/matrix-email-bot

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Andy Fingerhut <andy.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have no skin in this game, but wasn't the move to Slack pretty much a "vote with your feet" combined with word of mouth advertising?  It seems to me the same could happen to add another on-line chat tool/system, without anyone taking a poll/voting on this or any other medium.  We'll know when it has happened by the rumor mill on Slack, IRC, and/or this email group.

Agreed, hence I advertise matrix because I hope more people will see it as a way, better than just a different silo.

If "feet" will still choose a silo, there'll be a matrix bridge, as good as silo allows. Hence the risk of choosing wrong is minimized for everybody switching to matrix.

[Colin Yates]

I've only been skimming this but "analysis paralysis" comes to mind :-). What is the harm in establishing a presence in matrix (bagsy the "neo" handle) and letting people know? As has been said, people will vote with their feet so if in a months time matrix is a Clojure ghost town then lesson learned. 

Or, if I have missed some pertinent fact then by all means, sigh, tut and mutter "sheesh, these drive by commenters are annoying" :-).

On Wednesday, 24 May 2017, Herwig Hochleitner <hhochl...@gmail.com> wrote:

2017-05-23 23:04 GMT+02:00 Colin Fleming <colin.mailinglist@gmail.com>:

--