contrib (and specifically contrib/sql)

[Sean Corfield]

Figured I'd start a new thread since I'd pushed the 1.2.1 maven
artifacts one way off-topic...

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Stuart Sierra
<the.stua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's reasonable to be confused, since we don't completely have a handle on
> it ourselves.  We would like to avoid having to make any more releases of
> "old" clojure-contrib.  Once we feel like we've ironed out the process for
> creating "new" contrib libraries we will solicit volunteers to create "new"
> libraries out of stuff in "old" contrib.

Thanx for the clarification. I'd read everything on the dev wiki about
contrib and still felt confused, hence these questions :)

> Most of the stuff in "old" contrib is out-dated and unmaintained; these
> libraries will not survive the changeover to "new" contrib.

Since all of the contrib/modules seem to have reached 1.3.0-alpha4 are
those likely to just "die on the vine" so to speak or will there be an
official "final but deprecated" version of all those old pieces? The
wiki says "Current 1.3.0-alpha* releases will continue to parallel
Clojure 1.3.0-alpha* releases" but that's already not true. It also
says "1.3.0 final will be the last release of "classic"
clojure-contrib" but it sounds like you're saying that's not going to
be the case for some (most?) of the contrib modules.

Reading the dev wiki, it's not clear whether the split into modules
was intended purely as a vehicle for reviewing each piece separately
(and either promoting to core or dropping) or whether it was an end
goal: "While we will eventually want to break up contrib, I think we
should experiment with some new libs first."

> SQL is almost
> certainly going to become a "new" contrib library, it just hasn't happened
> yet.

That's very good to hear (since I'm building out code that relies
heavily on it). Would the process for moving contrib/sql to a "new"
contrib library have to be initiated by Stephen (C. Gilardi) as the
original author? Because of my current project demands at work (World
Singles), I'm keen to see some forward movement on this contrib
library :)

I've found https://github.com/alienscience/clj-sql to be a very useful
addition to contrib/sql and would be interested in helping do whatever
might be necessary to at least get discussions going around whether
that could be incorporated into whatever new contrib library SQL might
become. As well as possibly
https://bitbucket.org/kumarshantanu/clj-dbcp/src which makes DB
connection setup much easier and wraps the Apache connection pooling
library (and of course there's a question: how would such external
dependencies be viewed from the Clojure project p.o.v.?).
--
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

"Perfection is the enemy of the good."
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

[Rich Hickey]

The latter.

Rich

[Stuart Sierra]

Since all of the contrib/modules seem to have reached 1.3.0-alpha4 are
those likely to just "die on the vine" so to speak or will there be an
official "final but deprecated" version of all those old pieces? The
wiki says "Current 1.3.0-alpha* releases will continue to parallel
Clojure 1.3.0-alpha* releases" but that's already not true. It also
says "1.3.0 final will be the last release of "classic"
clojure-contrib" but it sounds like you're saying that's not going to
be the case for some (most?) of the contrib modules.

That's not fully decided.  My original plan was to maintain "old" clojure-contrib 1.3.0-* up until the Clojure 1.3.0 final release, and that's what I wrote on the wiki.  But Rich and the Clojure/core team have put a higher priority on creating "new" contribs.  So I have focused on getting that process ready and have fallen behind on maintaining "old" clojure-contrib.  No one, including me, wants to keep maintaining "old" clojure-contrib; it's a thorn in our collective side, and the sooner we can get rid of it, the better.

 

Reading the dev wiki, it's not clear whether the split into modules
was intended purely as a vehicle for reviewing each piece separately
(and either promoting to core or dropping) or whether it was an end
goal: "While we will eventually want to break up contrib, I think we
should experiment with some new libs first."

I decided to split "old" contrib into modules with the goal of making it easier for developers to work on their own libraries.  It failed because the multi-module build was too cumbersome for developers to work with.  No significant development has occurred on any "old" contrib libraries since 1.2.0.  So the consensus of the Clojure/core team has been to focus on "new" contrib exclusively.

Re SQL, the decision to create a "new" contrib currently lies with the Clojure/core team, subject to approval by Rich Hickey.  All we need is a volunteer to be the maintainer.  Our first choice for maintainer would obviously be the original author.  SQL has been a low priority so far because we do not use it much ourselves, but it will likely come up in a few weeks.

Re adding other libraries, we first have to get permission from everyone who has worked on the code.  Everything in contrib, old or new, must be developed under the Clojure Contributor Agreement.  Anything developed elsewhere, e.g. on GitHub, must be granted to Clojure with the express written permission of everyone who has ever committed code.  See http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Moving+Projects+Into+Contrib

As a final note, please be patient!  This process is as frustrating and confusing to us as it is to everyone else.  We're trying to keep up with a bunch of competing demands as best we can with the limited time we have.  We don't want to leave any Clojure developers in the lurch, but we do want to take the time to make sure we have a sustainable, maintainable process for the future.

-Stuart Sierra

clojure.com

[Sean Corfield]

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Stuart Sierra
<the.stua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Re SQL, the decision to create a "new" contrib currently lies with the
> Clojure/core team, subject to approval by Rich Hickey.  All we need is a
> volunteer to be the maintainer.  Our first choice for maintainer would
> obviously be the original author.  SQL has been a low priority so far
> because we do not use it much ourselves, but it will likely come up in a few
> weeks.

That fits my timeline. Once we have our next production launch out of
the way (over the next couple of weeks), my focus will turn to
replacing our current, problematic ORM layer with a new layer written
in Clojure, based on contrib/sql. So I'll leave you folks alone for a
while but I'll be back on this topic some time next month :)

> Re adding other libraries, we first have to get permission from everyone who
> has worked on the code.

Totally understand. I'm strongly in favor of the CA process and have
just pushed for it to be adopted on another OSS project that I'm
involved with: http://www.getrailo.org/index.cfm/community/contributing/
(that's a draft that's not linked from the rest of the site yet - the
content should look pretty familiar :)

> As a final note, please be patient!  This process is as frustrating and
> confusing to us as it is to everyone else.  We're trying to keep up with a
> bunch of competing demands as best we can with the limited time we have.

I know what it's like trying to run an open source project with a
volunteer team who have real day jobs so I sympathize and I'll try to
be patient - we see exactly this sort of tension with the Railo
project and getting the process in place and functioning properly can
be difficult when folks (like me!) are chasing specific issues. If
there's anything I can do around contrib/sql to help, I'd be only too
happy to do so, even if it's just talking to people about getting
themselves under the CA.

[Stephen C. Gilardi]

On Mar 20, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Stuart Sierra wrote:

Re SQL, the decision to create a "new" contrib currently lies with the Clojure/core team, subject to approval by Rich Hickey.  All we need is a volunteer to be the maintainer.  Our first choice for maintainer would obviously be the original author.  SQL has been a low priority so far because we do not use it much ourselves, but it will likely come up in a few weeks.

I'm the original author and I'd like to be involved in bringing c.c.sql forward. I'd like to work with Sean and anyone else who's interested to incorporate any improvements we can, subject to the constraints of contrib (CA, original work, and anything else that's required).

I'll take a look at the current state of c.c.sql and "new" contrib this weekend.

--Steve

[Sean Corfield]

I'm resurrecting this thread because (a) "a few weeks" has passed and
(b) my company is finally starting to integrate Clojure into our
existing production code base and we'll be relying heavily on the
module formerly known as c.c.sql :)

Since it looks like Steve is willing to "be involved" (lead?) the work
and I have a vested interest in the library being maintained and
supported going forward, what are the next steps?

One of the first steps would seem to be to decide on a new name / repo
for this library (it sounds like Clojure/core has already agreed that
a properly maintained replacement for c.c.sql should be part of
1.3.0)...?

Steve, I sent you an email off-list with all my contact details back
in March. I can re-send if you can't find it.

Thanx in advance folks,
Sean

[Stuart Halloway]

I have created the new repos at

https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc

Next step is to convert the old library to the new maven build.

Stu

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[Sean Corfield]

Awesome! Thank you Stuart!

Is there a cheat sheet for getting a new library up and running with
maven or should I just look at how the other new libraries work? :)

[Stuart Sierra]

http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/How+to+Create+New+Contrib+Projects

-The Other Stuart

[Sean Corfield]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Stuart Sierra
<the.stua...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/How+to+Create+New+Contrib+Projects

Thanx. Since I don't have commit rights to clojure/java.jdbc nor an
account on Hudson, I'll have to defer to others for those steps.

In the meantime I forked clojure/java.jdbc to get a working
0.0.1-SNAPSHOT without dependencies so I could at least start working
with it locally.

[Stephen C. Gilardi]

On Apr 16, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:

Steve, I sent you an email off-list with all my contact details back
in March. I can re-send if you can't find it.

I hadn't seen it until just now when I saw your mention here. I replied today. I'll be happy to help with this.

--Steve