Re; Dr Wolgen's salary

[Uhohinc]

The $600,000 Clinuvel pays Dr Wolgen last year is not inconsistent
with the upper middle median that in this link is representative of
ortopedic surgeons in USA.
Although Dr Wolgen was to my information in a highly specializwd area
of medicine and his patents for medical devices are in an even more
sub expertise area of maxifollogical surgery I think his pay is
relative, just to most of us in the stock board. We have more than
just a MBA
from Columbia directing Clinuvel, he has an MD at the end of his
printed name. Impotent to me is we our not an atypical corporate penny
stock scam where the guys running the company are just paying the
money to themselves.

Money has been known to motivate people, and I am certain that
universal human nature shows up in the stock price eventually.
I do not think the drug or Clinuvel would be in existence if not for a
highly intelligent and assertive benevolent dictatorial personality
whom had communicative intelligence to group goal and focus not just
himself but others.
Timelines change because circumstances and the situation change and
are fluid, and it would be unwise and not prudent for a CEO not to
adapt and change too. it is to simple thinking to judge a CEO on how
his plan was there and he has not met the goals and on time in that
plan or contingencys that are beyond foresight. It's not so important
how a CEO or anyone follows and acts according to plan, it's how they
react when they when they are confronted with situations not accordig
to plan to problems, setbacks, negative eventuallitys inherent in any
human endeavor but particular in the corporate world to an all or
nothing at all one drug small company with a finite bank account and
raw statistical like-company's failure rate very close to 100%





http://www.google.com/m/url?channel=iss&client=mobilesearchapp&devlocsession=off&ei=v7KdToj8N-KuiQKIJg&hl=en&q=http://www1.salary.com/orthopedic-surgeon-Salary.html&safe=images&source=mobilesearchapp&v=0.8.2.6553&ved=0CBUQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNHsqlfUrtxehJgR1B7cM6STESYGIw

[Uhohinc]

Update, over ten years ago, after alot of research into the Epitan which had become Clinuvel and a new Ceo named Dr Wolgen. I recall the previous ceo Wayne Millen jumping off the sinking ship with all the money he could after FDA “letter” and “ no tanning drug will ever get approval “ as I recall.

I decided to buy when I was on the phone with a Clinuvel board member, whom had abruptly uh......”resigned to pursue other interests”

I found the ex biard member of Epitan and then Clinuvel Dr Terry Winters thru the phone book. He gad nothing good to say about Dr Wolgen personnally, nor his management style. He called him somethings very bad, and he still showed his contempt not just in the words to phrases but in his voice cadence, tonality, inflections, increased tempo etc..

One example he gave me in answer to why such a personal animous and conflict of personalities was what he called Dr Wolgen’s pony show.

Dr Winters was an investor consultant in Valley Ventures which was a consortium affilated to the Dr Mac Hadley Endocrinology department research they licensed at Tuscon U of Arizona. Incidentally Palatin sub-licensed the patented melanocyte stimulating hormone for male aphrodisiacal aspects of melanocortins thru another sublicencee at the same time as Epitan/Clinuvel.

After all the negative rant about Dr Wolgen from Dr Winters, I asked him if he thought Dr Wolgen could get the drug approved by FDA......and he stated Dr Wolgen will get the drug approved....

At that moment I decided if your (Dr Winters) enemy whom has nothing good to say about you at all (Dr Wolgen)still can say he thinks Dr Wolgen will get it approved.......I invested alot of $ not in Clinuvel but in in Dr Wolgen, whom was running the newly name changed to Clinuvel with an evolving drug based on melanocortin stimulation. The only reason i did not invest after initially going for Palatin, is because of the history and numerous reasons about its CEO Dr Carl Spana.

Of course i do not like my stock being diluted in past capital raisings nor now or ever, but I look at the bigger picture and i look beyond tomorrow.

I do think now that with FDA approval of this melanocyte stimulating hormone formula was The vanguard and most difficult, and now I think with a good search Dr Wolgen can be replaced. But I have strong preference to keep the Ceo we have had fir 14 years, as well as many staff and employees who have been on the job unusually long terms. My oersonal coined adage is “The learning curve is very expensive”

We know Dr Wolgen has and probably will continue hitting 9s and 10s on any rating scale in Clinuvel:
based on knowledge of every aspect and detail of the drug, all setup with staff and team with the politics in check, ambition, competitiveness, perseverence, years of experience relateable to anything Clinuvel, and on and on....
Though some may negative in his communications and investir relations, or even more so with his pay or this latest stock renuneration for resolutions at AGM. He has actually been extremely prudent and better at controlling Clinuvel spending . Some would say to much and maybe he should have raised more, (diluted our stock more) spent more, but look at this is what Palatin management did. I sure expected we we invested in Clinuvel would be with FDA approval 5 years ago. But i cant complain if where Clinuvel is now, most are gone, sold off, merged out, or Ceos took a golden parachute.

I have never been to concerned about the communication, his reasoning makes sense to me.
The first place I go to check on the competition of Clinuvel is the communications the companies
put out.

I dont want to give away any money, but I am happy with that Clinuvel has such a bright stock future and present to even consider.

One and only reason i do not invest in Palatin is I do not trust its management.....I have no qualms about the ethics of Clinuvel management and trust Dr Wolgen based on his 14 years.

We all know one should continually set goals and plans...When Dr Wolfen let out his goal to buy and iwn a European Professional sports team, anyone can say that, but Dr Wolgen was serious about it and he was useing Clinuvel stock as his pkan to acheive this personal goal..That was more evidence to me my stock was tied to his plan and gave me more confidence my stock would be where it is today (finnally). And I think its just beginning.

The drug did not get itself approved, and I have stated long ago I thought lower level Clinuvel employees with a tenure should be in on the outcome with incentives. I firmly think and have experienced that money motivates an outcome in anything.

I think in general in majority in general human nature, humans are much more motivated to act ten times more to pain than in pleasure.......and stock investors in general will vote stronger and more often to something they perceive negative or feel strongly against more so than what they are strongly for or positive about.

I am buying into a bigger picture I think is in this stocks future, and really not concerned about the voting Yes today on all five proxy resolutions.

[Uhohinc]

Maurice
5/6/16


Just curious as why you think the EMA is at fault for the delay? I tend to suspect a good part of the blame should be on the company management (or lack their of). My impression is they are in over their heads and so aren't getting things right on the first (or even second) time. I've owned several rare disease companies and the approval process, country-by-country negotiations are actually pretty well known. Even having having a risk management strategy with controlled distribution in place is certainly not unique. I think a good management would have accomplished what they did a lot faster and probably gotten some fair amount of named patient reimbursement in the mean time before the official launch considering 2 countries were already providing it negotiating some sort of expanded access does not seem like an insurmountable task. Sorry but I am not a fan of management I would certainly be open to someone pointing out my faulty comparisons (BMRN, Shire, Genzime (Now SNY), ITMN (now Roche) are companies I've either owned/followed) who have successfully launched rare disease drugs in Europe.
- show quoted text -
Mark as complete



me (Uhohinc change)
5/6/16


"faulty comparisons"

There are other posts here where I would just repeat myself in defending Clinuvel management, and I get tired of hearing myself over so I will address just what you used.

First to be fair I disclose I mostly used wiki to learn just a little about each of the comparisons you offer to Clinuvel. Of course its all apples to oranges. And hindsight is an advantage.

The first company, BMRN never developed any drug, it was an investment consort which "acquired" its drug(s) from others. I did not delve into the drug acquisitons. But I saw no rosey path, in fact mostly the longterm original investors never reaped the reward of the long regulatory approval. There managements sold them out. There is no comparison to Clinuvel and a new molecule like Scenesse. If you got in and out and all worked for the better, that does not appear to be the fate for all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioMarin_Pharmaceutical

The second company Shire, you offered to compare to Scenesse and its management, is exactly what happened with BMRN, never developed any drug, it was an stock investment group which acquired its drug from others and put it on the stock market and raised money, and then sold out. Again, I think the original investors who stuck it out, did not get rich when their management sold out in general. Perhaps you were fortunate.The top dogs made out well even when itself was sold out. Also it was a longer term to approval then Scenesse. Yourself personally happy with your investment could be circumstancial bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire_(pharmaceutical_company)



Intermune was difficult to research as the drug has several names and licensed out to different companiest. But it was another origination from approval in Japan with another name and company. It had a compassionate use trial in 2002 there. The EMA approved it in 2011 with another name and company. But the management of Intermune was handed a license to an approved drug and still the FDA turned it down in 2011 and finallly approved it in 2014. I do not think we can ever really do a fair comparison to Clinuvel management and its drug, but if your point is that Intermune had a excellent management and a easy approval, one would think the hard work done by other managements and companys would have eased it thru the FDA as Intermunes drug, but that did not happen. I did not get into details of why. And by the way, Intermunes management eventually sold out the company to Roche. I do not know if the stock investors little made out, but it was a big amount. The timeline for developemnet of this drug I would say was longer than Clinuvel. Clinuvel actually did go faster I would say if compared to this company, but thats relative even in astrophysics,

The last company you offered for comparison to Clinuvel is Genzyme, it at least had a management team that did the drug discovery processs and reached approval for a disorder with many many more patients then Clinuve, starting in 1981 and getting an FDA approval in 1991 for its orphan drug. But it has an unbelievable history of contamination incidents as some are shown on Wiki. And this is management. And anyone of these could have wiped out everything. Again the guys running Genzyme sold out and made a killing. I suppose the original stock investors did also if they held out, but that was almost half a lifetime (I forgot when Genzyme got acquired. With Clinuvel I have not been in since Wolgen and etal started in 2005 after Epitan finally listened to FDA putting it in writing that they would not approve a tanning drug. But this management in Clinuvel has still not sold us out. The time is comparable even though the drugs are not. And one could say Clinuvel also acquired from Epitan. But it acquired a verge of bankrupt disaster with FDA angry and now predispositioned unfavorable to the original drug molecule and a total reset and attempt in five therapeutics was endeavored, with only the porphyria the successful candidate. I would put Wolgen etal at approval quicker than all the companies and their drugs approval (Clinuvel nine years and now another year and half of Ema "conditional" approval to appease the dissenting CHMP members averse to approval for a tanning drug. I did not find any conditional approvals in any of the companies you offer has faulty comparisons. And some here have dangers side effects. Again apples and ornges, but Scenesse has so inconsequential adverse reactions in number and magnitude. Also worth noting, is the EMA during Scenesse market application and authorization for market approval was undergoing a complete top to bottom revision in new and unkown and or revised procedures. When I used to read SS, I recall at least one character urging stock investors to sell out to Retrophin at a much lower price than now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genzyme
"faulty comparisons"








As for Clinuvel management, they have/had some of the very best from the biggest by far employees whom had much experience in American and Australian companies in getting concept drugs thru the regulatory labrynth. One, I think it was Dr. Agersborg was head of drug approval for Pfizer or Merck. And Stan Mcleish ran CSL to be the biggest drug company by sales in Austalia, bigger than the next 100 pharma companies on ASX. COMBINED ! (actually this says more about the other companies and the state of Australian meager pharma than CSL)
And my point is that the drug approval system under FDA and EMA is broken. No drug should take so long, not just Scenesse. No company should have to guess or waste so much effort and expense with such an incredible failure rate. The societal cost is inefficient and against progression and people suffer. And with Dr. Wolgen now with a large portion of stock in Clinuvel, has no reasoning to sell out the little investors to a golden parachute sweetheart deal with a bigger pharma. His shares and there valuation are going to go where ours does. These negotiations over price, has some of the

[Uhohinc]

And my point is that the drug approval system under FDA and EMA is broken. No drug should take so long, not just Scenesse. No company should have to guess or waste so much effort and expense with such an incredible failure rate. The societal cost is inefficient and against progression and people suffer. And with Dr. Wolgen now with a large portion of stock in Clinuvel, has no reasoning to sell out the little investors to a golden parachute sweetheart deal with a bigger pharma. His shares and there valuation are going to go where ours does. These negotiations over price, has some of the same human innate nature as when dealing with a used car salesman, or a greedy auto mechanic, or an internal revenue officer during an audit, but much higher costs and the fate of our stock at stake. I live near Indian casinos and have watched and know some professional poker players. The cards eventually average out, but the silent negotiation where the most important communication is non verbal!, the mental trepidation and correctly reading the other player is incredibly tense and some of these guys make money out negotiating the others. I have known some of the best and most tenacious negotiators, one of them whom owns this stock, and he can wear anyone down to give up. I suspect Dr. Wolgen is a hard adversary from some of his characteristics which have manifested, and he is apparently negotiating the best deal he can with the hand he has. Unlike a poker game, the regulatory price negotiators start with many advantages. With the Italians Drug Agency coming out with todays press release and explaining, I would consider Clinuvel to ..................................can not state what I think would interfere with Clinvuel, as the "regulators do read the stock investor websites."




This post has been edited



Maurice
5/7/16


I think we are talking different issues. I certainly agree with you about the regulatory process being far from optimal and I think its moving in the wrong direction. For example FDA pats itself on the back for improving their meeting of PDUFA goals but in reality they extended regular and priority reviews by 2 months to meet that goal.

My comments were directed from an investor standpoint on being able to execute the drug approval/launch process which I think Clinuvel has done sub optimally and informing probably worse than any company I've ever followed. I don't have an opinion on their discovery capability though from the clinic to launch I have a negative opinion. Whether one licenses early stage (BMRN often got compounds from Universities/research in the preclinical stage), acquires (ITMN acquired Pirfenidone from Marnac/the inventor Dr. Margolin), in licensed/acquired later stage (what Shire mostly did) or a combination (like Genzyme). To me its a matter of execution which if done well gets reward in the stock price. Though they all had their various issues all my examples did well at almost any point for long term investors and more pertinent to my example executed the approval/reimbursement process in Europe (and not only that but leveraged that to launch in countries that use Europe as a reference) in a more timely and less problematic manner.

BMRN's first three drugs time from IND to approval are 5.25 years (Aldurazyme), 5 years (Naglazyme), 3.25 years (Kuvan). Yes maybe management deserves some credit for getting the drug approved (in Europe) in an another indication but I would say that is far from enough to say they've done a good job.

When Intermune got Pirfenidone approved in Europe and went through the negotiation and reimbursement process they were pretty transparent about it and I got a fair understanding of it. That is why I don't see anything unusual with the country-by-country negotiations and the individual battles with reimburses be it governments or 3rd party payers. Dan Welch stated it well you try to get a pricing band where there is some variation between the highest and lowest country. It certainly wasn't easy and took time but they managed and were launching in countries as they did it. Clinuvel IMO had an added benefit of having 2 countries already providing drug! Italy is in poor financial position and I am sure that is part of the problem there, I recall other companies able to rally interested groups/organizations to support their reimbursement.

I won't rehash the debate on management I know we don't share the same opinion on them. I strongly believe they didn't do some things well (Their poor trial execution and delays helped me accumulate the stock) and while regulators haven't made it easy for them a good deal of the blame is with management.
Mark as complete

5/7/16

MrPoonz1 Fair comment.



me (Uhohinc change)
5/7/16


Not a fair comparison to start at NDA in my opinion. NDA has complicated and corporate patent strategics that interplay also. And Scenesse is a NME, the others I do not think were. And FDA and EMA hand out these and orphan drug status relatively easy, not representative of the timeline or success, and many more NDA's go no where for each one granted. Clinuvel actually beat every one of the four companys to EMA approval (or FDA approval) If you take the time from NDA then you would have to give credit for Clinuvel management for getting to the NDA a lot faster than the all the others. Bottom line of the four companies and Clinuvel, it was Clinuvel that when starting Clinuvel took from name change in April or about of 2005 and strategic redirection got from inception of program to market approval by 6 months to over 2 years less than any of the others. (and start is hard to define, but I place it at completion of a phase I and somewhere about the start of a phase II in humans which regulators must approve, and then the meetings with regulators begin and planning for longterm Phase II in humans, Phase III, some pharmakinetics, toxicology, and goal of market approval in a particular therapy)

In this link, Clinuvel's EPP program from start to market approval was 9 years and 5 months http://www.lifescientist.com.au/content/biotechnology/article/clinuvel-gets-orphan-status-for-scenesse-in-hhd-589919273

https://www.google.com/finance/company_news?q=NASDAQ:ITMN In addition to all the problems I mentioned that transgressed with Intermune in my prior response post, many/some investors were dissatisfied and lawsuits were instigated to prevent the sell out at $74 per share to Roche, based on the then history of Intermune management prosletyzing prior that the company projections and sales and future placed it a more than double this eventual sale out price. This drug does not appear to have since had any effect on Roche stock up much or down, but Roche is so big it could be a ripple to it. So maybe in hindsight in which we will never know what would have happened to Intermune stock price, perhaps the investor lastly in the final days of Intermune did ok.

Here on the max chart for Biomarin, https://www.google.com/#q=bmrn I disagree that investors could be happy in general, the stock has lost $70 to $80 per share in the last year. And I could not find where any of its drugs was acquired by BMRN (maybe indirectly by the prior but not directly) was raw research or bought from any university. Any drug as I listed on Wiki prior posts, was a drug that was negotiated from drug companies that sold out to them, and no longer exist. I can not find if investors from so far back are happy based on stock price and charts gone, but I agree most, but not all, would have to be much better off if they stuck with the drug(s) as it was acquired by BMRN as BMRN made out with such purchase in the looooooooong term, but only if in hindsight one can pick where they bought in, and sold. But only if we all could have been in at the low of BMRN and sold on July 1, 2014 at almost one hundred percent above the present day price. Your right, a lot of money was made on the BMRN stock because of the drugs it acquired if you compare the date of acquisition from the birth company of the drug to even today. But not by the investors whom bought on July 1, 2014 ! Iam sure some Epitan investors are not happy either, but it could have been much worse, a complete loss if he or someone had not agreed to step in and start over, at least W has raised capital and gotten an market approval.


I can not get a chart or history on stock prices for Genzyme, but I think in general, most stock holders in general, whom started early in when it acquired its first drug and rode it to approval on its first and subsequent drugs, in general, and whom sold at the right time could have done very exceptional stock price. But how did the first investors whom sold the drug to Genzyme come out and feel about their being sold out or selling out. Look what they gave up. Was their management ignorant, or was even Genzyme management ingnorant to have sold to soon to Sanofri....................And the first drug (orphan) it got approval for, which took about ten years plus, when FDA approved cost $200,000 per year......for life and was a major contributor to the sales and success for a disorder that has way more patients than EPP.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genzyme What if W decided to sell out to Retrophin, I think the Retrophin stock investors would be happier, or even some Clinuvel stock investors could say they did very well even if they sell next Monday.


The same for Shire, did the orgin company of its drug before Shire acquired make out. Even when you look at Shire, it was many many years of time and no or slow increase, the stock chart can be interpreted so many ways for many investors. Down a hundred bucks or so from a year or so ago.

https://www.google.com/#q=shire+stock+price

In general, all these companies you cite, took at or more time than Clinuvel but we are looking back on them and can see their long ago outcome, we are still in the 12th year or almost, and still awaiting Clinuvel's out come which still has the chance to get revenues for EPP in Europe, not USA for an opportunity to have the cresting that most of these four companys did do.

I think you are right in that these companies, for all we know if we could have known what was goingon, got sales much sooner than Clinuvel has in the last 18 months since approval. But Clinuvel got stuck with the decree at market approval for a plan and then implementation of special education and monitoring (they all have monitoring) and audit and control of the distribution in addition to a normal Pusr or RMP before getting to price negotiate and sell.

It could be simple in that Clinuvel just takes what the Italians or Germans offer, then what do they do if this is not even enough to pay the bills for Clinuvel let alone give a tiny return on investment. W is having to do his homework and earn his pay at this pivotal moment and outcome of pricing that the stock price will react to, or not. He has to get the Italian pricing authorites to recognize this drug price can make or break this company stock, and it is very fair to pay at least $25,000 per implant when comparables to other drugs, such as Genzymes at $200,000 per year are evaluated with relativeness.

We better hope he gets at least $25,000 each. I do not know what will happen if they say no. Bottom line in my opinion, W has gotten the drug approved, he did it I think we all could agree at a very limited stock dilutions, even if you compare to other small drug companies I think no company has ever spent so little to get an EMA approval even for a none NME, and they spend even ten times what he has and do not even get approval (msh sister from U of Arizona Palatin is just one)

Epitan management raided the bank accounts of cash in salary and payouts after the FDA issued a letter that it would absolutely not approve a drug for tanning and there was no money and no hope till W stepped in. His management style is on a need to know basis and he has stated he wants to not give any help to the competition. W issues at least as many press releases and data as most all other ASX and Nasdaq. He just does not tell investors what they want to hear or embellish or accentuate or lie like many other self promoting drug managements that some are just frauds. I think if it were or is not his style and management this company would not even exist, let alone a drug approval. I think Clinuvel stock would be much higher if listed on Nasdaq. But I also think this is W strategy to keep any hostile takeover abay which is so easier to do in USA than the protections on ASX and we would probably have been sold out, merged, or taken over by some NY city slickers whom would have seen to it we got little. Who knows, maybe we are wiped out already with Valurix and do not even know it. Just like every company you cited happened too. And some Ceo' left with tens of millions. Only Intermune started its original drug and got it to approval befor selling out, but that I think had a lot more to do with the unusual circumstance of the startup of this company ceo had his own child with the orphan disorder for the very drug he was managing to get ma for.



On Saturday, May 7, 2016 at 4:17:39 PM UTC-7, MrPoonz1 wrote:
Fair comment.

This post has been edited

[Uhohinc]

still pertinent ten years later.

[Uhohinc]

I have set in motion, though not verified yet, to vote yes on the first 3 motions to my Australian CUV shares, and no on the fourth spill motion.  

And I think we all owe gratitude to a legacy of Director Dr. Agersborg's father who was instrumental in getting this  (Epitan) Clinuvel a reboot that has been a successful drug, approval, stock price, and future and whom herself is close in footsteps to the late Dr. Agersborg's vision that he did all the life long hard work for which we all are reaping profits from. 

1. Remuneration Report

 2. Re-elect Director Agersborg 

3. Re-elect Director Smith 

4. Spill motion

[Uhohinc]

And why can I vote for the runumeration as item one..........................................

Uhohinc<michaelba...@gmail.com>

Jun 28, 2020, 12:17:02 PM







to Clinuvel Afamelanotide SCENESSE senescence CUV ASX.CUV CLVLY ur9

Aka Clinuvel.

And how does a jet fighter come from under the ground in dirt, rocks, sand, to become the then sophisticated integration of metals, plastics, rubber, glass to be a concept of a engineering marvel of a million parts for FAA certification for a test pilot.........Clinuvel in its most basics is an organization of people taking earth dirt of mostly carbon based sugars put together from photons from the sun into a complicated chemistry to treat other integrated sugars in a humans blood cells that negative to human health are affected from the photons from the sun.
I cant see how you can invest in a drug or jet and not invest in the people whom put the dirt together. Without them you just got dirt.

On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 7:20:08 PM UTC-7 Uhohinc wrote:

[Uhohinc]

https://www.clinuvel.com/clinuvel-extends-employment-agreement-with-ceo/

If invested in Clinuvel, one is invested in Dr. Wolgen......one can not say they are just invested in the drug msh, in generalities it has been there and not gone anywhere even with mega pharma like the melanocortin programs at Pfizer, Merck, Astra Zenica, Palatin and even Malek or the Farber at Harvard all abstracts and research but nothing to the patient in bed with revenues.....Getting the (any) drug from concept to revenue is millions of individual "what ifs" decisions and predicting the future (the planning) we all do every wake second needs to be re planned ...

If one thinks someone else can replace Dr. Wolgen to save money...................whom has not just a bunch of letters after their name, but the scope of the preciseness of knowledge of the drug and its breaking new areas in physiology, the business, corporate, governmental, regulatory, blah blah all integrated.   If to be replaced, I think Clinuvel will and should find in house candidates. 

But outside of the company, the Elon Musk types are already showing but in their own niche that they have no incentive or motive to dead stop and relearn a new niche where the learning curve and time is the bane of all up and coming biotech stocks that essentially have a almost 100 percent fail to survive rate.

And Dr. Wolgen  could trade his Clinuvel stresses and time to..........................anything or nothing.