[csml] lunacy's revenge: Cincinnati
Steve Buffum
sports source paying attention to the largely pointless trade of Bobby
Bonilla for Mel Rojas, a little blurb caught my attention:
"Chicago White Sox: traded OF Mike Cameron to Cincinnati for 1B Paul
Konerko"
Holy Headcheese, Batman! Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to the fact that
I chose Cameron for my fantasy team and he was utterly valueless in 1998,
but good gravy! Paul Konerko, 1998 ML experience aside, has always been
touted as one of The Terrific Prospects, and geez, even if I overvalue
him, I'd be surprised if someone else doesn't feel the same way and would
be willing to give up more than Mike Fargin' Cameron.
For the Sox, this seems like a terrific deal: Jeff Abbott was better than
Cameron anyway (at the plate, at least: not sure what they do defensively
in CF), and comparing Paul Konerko's upside to Greg Norton's at 1B seems
like an exercise in excess. For the Reds, they clear out Konerko for
Casey and get Cameron to ... uh ... well ...
You have a currency like Paul Konerko and all you can get is MIKE
CAMERON? Maybe they felt guilty about Burba.
--
Steve Buffum swbu...@radian.com
Radian International, LLC Netscape DevEdge Champion 1997 - NSAPI
DLD 512 419 5062 FAX 512 454 8807
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Chas Withers
>
>Holy Headcheese, Batman! Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to the fact that
>I chose Cameron for my fantasy team and he was utterly valueless in 1998,
>but good gravy! Paul Konerko, 1998 ML experience aside, has always been
>touted as one of The Terrific Prospects, and geez, even if I overvalue
>him, I'd be surprised if someone else doesn't feel the same way and would
>be willing to give up more than Mike Fargin' Cameron.
I just read something recently (in Baseball America, I think) about how
far Konerko's stock has fallen. Seems the perspective around MLB is that
he's just the latest in a long line of Dodger prospects (see Karim Garcia,
Roger Cedeno, Billy Ashley) to look like Harmon Killebrew in an
Albacrackee uniform and look more like Dorothy Fuldheim in a major league
uniform. It's weird though -- that guy has gone from being considered a
lock to being traded three times in a matter of months.
It might not happen at all, but I think Mike Cameron might be better off
in the NL. Eschewing all statistical analysis and relying instead
wholeheartedly on the inherent "rightness" of the game, Cameron is an NL
player. He's a fastball hitter (the book on Cameron, that he couldn't hit
junk when behind in the count, got around the league pretty quick last
year), and he's got some wheels. He might not be all that and a bag of
chips next year, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him improve enough to
be useful in a new environment. He's going to have to hit above .230
though....
As an aside, man, just how ugly are the White Sox? Belle's gone,
Ventura's gone, and the infield right now goes Konerko, Durham, Caruso and
who knows. Jeff Abbott is the center fielder, Ordonez is in right and ACK
ACK ACK ACK!! Not to even mention that the pitching staff will certainly
grown even more ripe over the winter. VERY nice.
Back to Konerko for one second -- I wonder how much of what a guy's
reputation is, by word of mouth? I bring this up only in the context of
Enrique Wilson, whom the Indians have now told the world doesn't have
enough offense to be a second baseman (still one of the weirdest comments
on record) and that he's more suited to be a shortstop. Whether either
one of those statements is true or not, the fact is that some of the less
astute GMs out there (and there are plenty) probably read that somewhere
and take it as true. Can't help us when Denny Neagle is out there and
maybe we can't sell Schuerholz because mentally he believes Wilson is only
a shortstop. All speculative, but I wonder nonetheless.
By the way, if JB and the radio reports are true that the Indians could
have had Neagle for Ogea and Sexson but that Hart wouldn't part with
Sexson, I'm about ready to commit hari-kari. That CAN'T be true. It
doesn't make any sense -- the Braves wanted a second baseman but they were
willing to move him for a 1B/DH and an alligator-armed pitcher?
Chas
>
>Received: (from root@localhost) by ftp1.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id
>HAA22445 for cle-sports-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov
Steve Buffum
I bet the ChiSox are salivating at the prospect of losing Belle, but
the blurb I read on ESPNet was that they were considering moving Greg
Norton from first to third to replace Ventura. So now you have an
infield of Konerko, Durham, Caruso, and Norton. Fearsome.
> Back to Konerko for one second -- I wonder how much of what a guy's
> reputation is, by word of mouth?
Well, I would bet that the "reputation chain" is a fairly arcane beast
that contains elements not necessarily seen to the public. For example,
I bet pitching coaches look at a lot of videotape and talk amongst
themselves about how this guy has this flaw and that guy has that health
risk. I remember the Tribe saying something along these lines about
Doug Jones, although it all looks pretty preposterous in hindsight.
So I'd imagine that something like this has happened "behind the scenes"
with Konerko where coaches and scouts have run through some sort of
analysis and have come to a conclusion, only parts of which leak out
to various media. Based on my limited exposure, I still think Konerko
is worth a lot of risk.
> By the way, if JB and the radio reports are true that the Indians could
> have had Neagle for Ogea and Sexson but that Hart wouldn't part with
> Sexson, I'm about ready to commit hari-kari. That CAN'T be true. It
> doesn't make any sense -- the Braves wanted a second baseman but they were
> willing to move him for a 1B/DH and an alligator-armed pitcher?
I think the Braves went into the off-season with one specific goal:
trade Neagle for 2B help. The fact that they took Remlinger suggests
that it's not impossible for them to have agreed to take Ogea, but I
think this trade can be taken largely at face value. And I still think
Sexson, if really held back from Atlanta, was held because he's the
currency in a different deal (like Radke, perhaps even Clemens, etc.).
--
Steve Buffum swbu...@radian.com
Radian International, LLC Netscape DevEdge Champion 1997 - NSAPI
DLD 512 419 5062 FAX 512 454 8807
Nancy Koebel
reluctant to part with Sexson because of his ability to DH in the future?
Why are we worried about that when everyone is on his tail to produce a
WS ring this year? There has to have been a better deal out there
involving Sexson, and both Minnesota and Toronto seem right for the
pickings. Neither wants someone who's going to cost them any money in the
next few years, and although Neagle would have provided much needed left
handed starting pitching, getting Radke or Clemmons would be much better.
Nancy Koebel
Birchard Public Library of Sandusky County
koeb...@oplin.lib.oh.us
Gustaaf Brooijmans
>It might not happen at all, but I think Mike Cameron might be better off
>in the NL. Eschewing all statistical analysis and relying instead
>wholeheartedly on the inherent "rightness" of the game, Cameron is an NL
>player. He's a fastball hitter (the book on Cameron, that he couldn't hit
>junk when behind in the count, got around the league pretty quick last
>year), and he's got some wheels. He might not be all that and a bag of
>chips next year, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him improve enough to
>be useful in a new environment. He's going to have to hit above .230
>though....
Yeah well, it took Todd Walker a year, but man did he hit this year. It
looks like the Sox are going to lose Ventura and/or Belle so my hope to have
a slightly more competitive AL central is going down the drain (unless of
course Konerko becomes the next Albert Belle (offensively that is).
Considering Vaughn and Williams are looking for around and above $12M, and
Ventura supposedly around $9M, Fryman is a bargain now and $7M to Robbie
seems fair. And whatever comes, an infield of Thome, Alomar, Vizquel,
Fryman backed up with Wilson and Sexson sounds pretty good to me.
>By the way, if JB and the radio reports are true that the Indians could
>have had Neagle for Ogea and Sexson but that Hart wouldn't part with
>Sexson, I'm about ready to commit hari-kari. That CAN'T be true. It
>doesn't make any sense -- the Braves wanted a second baseman but they were
>willing to move him for a 1B/DH and an alligator-armed pitcher?
>
I don't believe for an instant this is true. I think if the Braves asked
for Ogea and Sexson for Neagle, Hart would buy 1st class tix on the first
plane for all of these guys.
Does somebody remember what the Braves gave up for Neagle in the first
place? I'd be interested in seeing how many kids they ended giving up for
Boone and Remlinger.
Gus
Bob Collins
>Steve, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The PD said Hart was
>reluctant to part with Sexson because of his ability to DH in the future?
> Why are we worried about that when everyone is on his tail to produce a
>WS ring this year? There has to have been a better deal out there
Darn good question. "No, we don't need a really good LEFTHANDED starter
because we think this kid will be our DH of the future." Man. I wish I could
figure out how much of this stuff in the papers is real and how much is just
hogwash. I GOTTA believe that Sexson's involved in another deal. Or Giles.
>involving Sexson, and both Minnesota and Toronto seem right for the
>pickings. Neither wants someone who's going to cost them any money in the
>next few years, and although Neagle would have provided much needed left
>handed starting pitching, getting Radke or Clemmons would be much better.
I think Clemens to TExas makes the most sense but if it's Cleveland, OK.
Would Sexson be involved? Not sure exactly where he fits. Let's see, first?
Nope, Carlos Delgado is a 30-30 guy. Rightfield? Nope. Shawn Green is a
30-30 guys. Centerfield? He can't play CF and even if he could , Shannon
Stewart hit 35 dingers. Leftfield? Hmmm...who's there now, Jose Cruz Jr.
That's interesting. Would they take one bigtime prospect and replace him
with another?
Would they need Sexson as DH? They've got Canseco there right now and he hit
46 homers.
It's tough to fit Sexson in here which tells me that Clemens isn't going to
be coming to Cleveland for an OF that they don't reall NEED. I think Clemens
comes in exchange for young pitching... probably Martinez . Unless it's a
straight salary dump and I think the Blue Jays have a lot of money anyway.
Sue & Bob Deepe
>Does somebody remember what the Braves gave up for Neagle in the first
>place? I'd be interested in seeing how many kids they ended giving up for
>Boone and Remlinger.
>
>Gus
It was at least Jason Schmidt and Ron Wright-there may have been more as well.
Bob
Bob Collins
-----Original Message-----
From: Gustaaf Brooijmans <gus...@fnal.gov>
To: Chas Withers <cwit...@thgi.com>; swbu...@radian.com
<swbu...@radian.com>; cle->
>Does somebody remember what the Braves gave up for Neagle in the first
>place? I'd be interested in seeing how many kids they ended giving up for
Primarily Jason Schmidt. The ERA is a little over 4 (below league average)
he gave up slightly more hits than IP. Control was real good. I think they
got an OF prospect too.
>Boone and Remlinger.
>
>Gus
AC
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Nancy Koebel <koeb...@oplin.lib.oh.us>
>>involving Sexson, and both Minnesota and Toronto seem right for the
>>pickings. Neither wants someone who's going to cost them any money in the
>>next few years, and although Neagle would have provided much needed left
>>handed starting pitching, getting Radke or Clemmons would be much better.
>
>I think Clemens to TExas makes the most sense but if it's Cleveland, OK.
>Would Sexson be involved? Not sure exactly where he fits. Let's see, first?
>Nope, Carlos Delgado is a 30-30 guy. Rightfield? Nope. Shawn Green is a
>30-30 guys. Centerfield? He can't play CF and even if he could , Shannon
>Stewart hit 35 dingers. Leftfield? Hmmm...who's there now, Jose Cruz Jr.
>That's interesting. Would they take one bigtime prospect and replace him
>with another?
Isn't Cruz on the trade block?
The rumors in the Blue Jays newsgroup (which I think are about as reliable
as the rumors no sports talk) has the Jays asking for Justice, Colon, and
Wilson. If they'd take some other pitcher than Colon/Wright, then I'd say
done in an instant.
>Would they need Sexson as DH? They've got Canseco there right now and he
hit
>46 homers.
Canseco is a free agent at the moment and is asking for a 4 or 5 year deal,
which the Jays don't seem to eager to give.
AC
Zetwatt
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Nancy Koebel <koeb...@oplin.lib.oh.us>
>
>
>>Steve, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The PD said Hart was
>>reluctant to part with Sexson because of his ability to DH in the future?
>
>> Why are we worried about that when everyone is on his tail to produce a
>>WS ring this year? There has to have been a better deal out there
>
>
>Darn good question. "No, we don't need a really good LEFTHANDED starter
>because we think this kid will be our DH of the future." Man. I wish I could
>figure out how much of this stuff in the papers is real and how much is just
>hogwash. I GOTTA believe that Sexson's involved in another deal. Or Giles.
I read the PD every day, and don't recall Hart saying that. Since it
would probably cause me to bust a blood vessel, I think I would
remember.
>
>
>It's tough to fit Sexson in here which tells me that Clemens isn't going to
>be coming to Cleveland for an OF that they don't reall NEED. I think Clemens
>comes in exchange for young pitching... probably Martinez . Unless it's a
>straight salary dump and I think the Blue Jays have a lot of money anyway.
>
In the PD, Hoynes said that the company that owns the Blue Jays has
lost 100M on the Jays since '94, and haven't set a payroll for next
year, yet. They also have threatened to play next season in
Exhibition Stadium, because they are trying to get a better lease in
the SkyDome.
Tom
I think JB posted a link to the column, this morning.
Nancy Koebel
receive any revenue from the luxury seating. It all goes to the Sky Dome
company. That's one of the reasons they're not making money, plus they
don't sell out and are schizophrenic about their direction. Moving is more
of a boycott to force a renegotiation of the contract.