[csml] Colon traded!
Bob Deepe
leaguers. Anyone have more details?????? The firesale begins with a bang!
Bob
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Steven Hubbard
Amazing . . . not what anyone was expecting, but the Indians DID get
probably the top 2 players in the Expos farm system. Is Phillips ready for
prime-time?
Don't know much about these players . . . Lee Stevens is worthless. Brandon
Phillips is the top hitter in Montreal's minor leagues, and Cliff Lee is
their top pitcher. Don't know the age of these guys, and I haven't found
much info on Grady Sizemore.
Lee Stevens? 318 obp and 327 slg, 32 years old, career obp/slg is 325/452.
Brandon Phillips is a shortstop hitting .327 in AA. Only 16 walks in 60
games, but 9 HRs -- 380 obp and 506 slg.
Cliff Lee -- 86 IP, 61 hits, 23 walks, 105Ks (leading the Eastern league).
Minor league pitchers are hard beasts to predict, but that's about as good
as it gets.
Grady Sizemore -- .258 BA in A-ball with no power. Leads his team in walks
with 36 (256 ABs) and is second on the team with 9 steals.
Terrence Layne
--- Bob Deepe <de...@eastlink.net> wrote:
> To Montreal, ESPN is reporting...for Lee Stevens and
> three minor
> leaguers. Anyone have more details?????? The
> firesale begins with a bang!
Associated Press
[Editted heavily -- tll]
CLEVELAND -- The disappointing Cleveland Indians
traded ace Bartolo Colon to the surprising Montreal
Expos for first baseman Lee Stevens...and three minor
league prospects -- shortstop Brandon Phillips,
pitcher Cliff Lee and outfielder Grady Sizemore.
Stevens, 34, was hitting only .190 with 10 home runs
and 31 RBI.
Phillips, who turns 21 Friday, is considered perhaps
the Expos' top prospect. He hit .327 with nine homers
and 35 RBI at Double-A Harrisburg before being
promoted to Ottawa. At Triple-A, he's hitting .257
with a homer and five RBI.
Lee, 23, was 7-2 with a 3.23 ERA in 15 starts at
Harrisburg. In 86 1/3 innings, the right-hander has
struck out 105 and walked 23.
Sizemore, 19, is hitting .258 at Class A Brevard
County, with no homers and 26 RBI in 256 at-bats.
[End AP Story]
Sounds like Stevens is just a short-term bat, but
Phillips and Lee sound very promising. Grady Sizemore
has a good name and he's only 19, so either he's
really good or he couldn't get into college.
I was psyched to see the trade was with the Expos --
what with their rep for developing players. We'll
know if it was a good deal or not in 2 or 3 years.
--Terry Layne
Portland, OR
__________________________________________________
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Nick Guoth
Lee Stevens - crap. But maybe he's being looked at as a replacement for
Thome when he goes. I believe we will see Thome go rather soon.
Phillips - is he ready for ML? I rather doubt it. He's only just made the
transition to AAA after a solid AA first half of the season. I guess we're
looking at Escobar/Bradley/Phillips as our future outfield. Something to
look forward to.
Lee - Looks great in the numbers but he's only in AA. Won't see him for
another season or so. May get a call up in September.
Sizemore - Well, I'm not impressed with the numbers. Here are the figures:
Grady Sizemore - L, 6'2", 205lbs, 08/02/82, OF
Bavard County Maantees (Florida State League)
258 0HR/26RBI from 75 games 36BB/41K
I guess they are expecting quite a bit in the future.
General comments - Has anyone noticed that the team that we traded with is
one team that may not be around next season? Would there be a possibility
of us getting back Colon after the season if the team does disintegrate?
So Colon's gone. Thome's nearly gone. Phillips is a SS which means that
just maybe Vizquel is on the way out as well. What about Manuel?
cheers to all,
nick from down under...
Terrence Layne
for Thome can be expected anytime now. Wonder if
there's any chance the PTBNL is RickE4? Probably not.
I would say this season will be worth suffering
through if at the end we get to see Colon winning game
seven against the Twins. Go Expos!
--Terry Layne
Portland, OR
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
NLKo...@aol.com
NLKo...@aol.com
cutout?
They probably left Thome in Boston. Check the plane when they arrive tonight.
NLKo...@aol.com
infield prospects who would help in 1-2 years. I doubt Sizemore was the main
piece of this deal - it sounds like the pitcher and SS (who would be major
league ready about the time Omar retires in a couple of years).
But couldn't they get something better than Stevens? I can hardly wait. An
infield of Fried Fryman, RickE4, and Stevens. Underwhelming. And they
expect people to pay to see this crap?
The conspiracy theorist in me says they timed this coincidentally after the
first two games of the Arizona series sold out.
Jeff Blair
> Today in the PD Shapiro said Colon and Thome would only be traded for top
> infield prospects who would help in 1-2 years. I doubt Sizemore was the main
> piece of this deal - it sounds like the pitcher and SS (who would be major
> league ready about the time Omar retires in a couple of years).
>
> But couldn't they get something better than Stevens? I can hardly wait. An
> infield of Fried Fryman, RickE4, and Stevens. Underwhelming. And they
> expect people to pay to see this crap?
>
> The conspiracy theorist in me says they timed this coincidentally after the
> first two games of the Arizona series sold out.
You know what? I give up.
I had my Stats Major League Handbook right here, ready to systematically
refute your Charlie Manuel claims. Manager tendencies, moves, and such are
all listed. Anybody can see that what you've been asserting- the bench is
never used- is clearly untrue and that if the sheer number of moves
indicates how good a manager is (which I don't believe it does) Charlie's
right there with the rest of them. For what that's worth.
But then I'm reading about this trade and I'm doing (figurative) cartwheels
that the Indians got perhaps the best middle infield prospect in the game- a
guy who the Expos were looking to call up later *this year* after he tore up
AA ball. A guy who's 20 years old and TORE UP the EL.
I'm thinking that the Indians minor league pitching is the mirror image of
their major league hitting. It's strong, it's deep, and it's getting better
as the season progresses. If there's a team that can withstand the loss of
a Colon over the long term, it's the Indians.
And then. And then I read a post that glosses over Brandon Phillips like
he's Greg LaRocca or similar detritus. And that ignores Cliff Lee- perhaps
the best lefty in the EL. And that centers on Lee Stevens- a throw in,
vanilla, bench, depth player at best- as being Shapiro's main focus in this
trade.
And it hits me. People's minds are made up. It doesn't make any difference
what the facts are. Charlie's an idiot. I'm sure Chris Chambliss or Joel
Skinner or Willie Randolph will be idiots, too, when they take over the
club. Shapiro's an idiot for trading Alomar for "suspects." Then he's an
idiot for trading Colon for prospects- even though they happen to be
regarded nearly universally as two of the best in the game. The same Colon
who was hounded for being a fat, lazy, disappointment this time last year.
Tell ya what, folks. Shapiro's made his share of mistakes, if not more.
But it would take the mama of all TCE's to make acquiring Brandon (Crap)
Phillips one of them.
But you know what? It just doesn't matter, apparently.
--Jeff
sjm...@commscope.com
rumor i saw at the PD site is the PTBNL will be Tim Drew.
SMinch
Terrence Layne <terry...@yahoo.com>@lists.apk.net on 06/27/2002 09:59:29
PM
Sent by: owner-...@lists.apk.net
To: CSML <spo...@lists.apk.net>
cc: (bcc: Scott Minch/CommScope)
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
Since Lee Stevens is a first baseman I suppose a trade
for Thome can be expected anytime now. Wonder if
there's any chance the PTBNL is RickE4? Probably not.
I would say this season will be worth suffering
through if at the end we get to see Colon winning game
seven against the Twins. Go Expos!
--Terry Layne
Portland, OR
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Jim
> Lee Stevens - crap. But maybe he's being looked at as a replacement for
> Thome when he goes. I believe we will see Thome go rather soon.
I fully agree with your assessment of Lee Stevens. :) I'd suspect that if
Thome were traded, Broussard would move to first, and Stevens would remain
bench fodder. I think Stevens was a throw-in on the Expo side, as in "okay,
you can have our best prospects, but you have to take Stevens so we can get
him off our roster and bring up somebody useful."
> General comments - Has anyone noticed that the team that we traded with is
> one team that may not be around next season? Would there be a possibility
> of us getting back Colon after the season if the team does disintegrate?
The only idea I've heard kicked around (and I forget where I heard it now),
is the MLB would have a dispersal draft, in which other MLB teams would pick
from the contracted teams' 25-man or 40-man roster in the same order as the
amateur draft. If this is true, I doubt Colon would still be available when
the Tribe drafted. Bartolo and Vlad would probably be the first two to go.
Jim
--
Detroit Red Wings, Stanley Cup Champions 1997, 1998, 2002
NLKo...@aol.com
who probably won't make it. It took 5 years for Colon to develop into an
ace, and that was not inlcuding his time at AAA (from 97 when he came up).
At that rate, it will take, let's see, probably 3-4 years before this pitcher
even makes it to the majors, and that's if he doesn't get hurt first. The
SS, according to the paper, could come up maybe next year. I suppose he
could be worth it, but I'm sorry I don't feel like paying $25 per seat to
watch AAA call ups.
I'm not saying they shouldn't have done anything, but look at it this way.
We have been told since the beginning of the season this team would be built
around pitching. Well, it's not. It's going to be built around minor
leaguers who make league minimum. Bart Colon, a home-grown product, should
have been the cornerstone of this rotation for years. Instead, he's been
dealt to Montreal to help sell them to someone from Washington or the
Carolinas. He won't be signed beyond next year by the Expos. And Larry
Dolan was unwilling or unable to sign him either. But for these players, I
would have given up Finley, not Colon. According to today's PD, Shapiro said
he had to make this deal because no one was willing to give up major league
level talent. Then what's the hurry? Wouldn't there have been some better
deal at the end of the month? Maybe. Who's next? Probably Thome.
Eveyone, from ESPN on down, is lambasting this deal. It was done hastily and
without much thought for the people who pay this team's bills. Now, are they
going to lower ticket prices next year too? I doubt it.
What hasn't been discussed here is the other deal that came down last night.
Martin Vargas, an AAA reliever who's been their closer, was SOLD to a
Japanese team for $500,000. No players, just cash. On a team who's bullpen
consists of flotsam like Mark Wohlers and Chad Paronto, they let a player go
simply because he's out of options and they didn't think he'd make the major
league roster next year. Why? I don't know, but this is a sign of a team
deeply in financial trouble. In the PD today they said that Cablevision has
seen it's stock value go down 64% this year (how much did they invest in
Enron and Worldcom?). No, I think we're seeing a dismantling and a return to
Vernon Stouffer, not Dick Jacobs of the late 80's. Shapiro said yesterday
he'd make a Joe Carter type deal for Colon. Well, for Carter they got Sandy
Alomar and Carlos Baerga, who were both major league ready when they got
here. This is no way a Joe Carter deal.
Nancy Koebel
nlko...@aol.com
NLKo...@aol.com
around the time last night's game was supposed to start. That is also when
they told Colon. Charlie didn't make this deal. Charlie is a pawn, just
like the others. He's only here because he's cheap.
It's not TCE, it's memory. These are the kinds of moves they made back in
the late 60's and 70's. They developed players, then traded them when they'd
actually cost them money. Remember Dennis Eckersley?
Steven Hubbard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Blair" <jeff_...@indians.fan.org>
Newsgroups: cle.sports
To: "Cleveland Sports Mailing List" <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Cc: <NLKo...@aol.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> But then I'm reading about this trade and I'm doing (figurative)
cartwheels
> that the Indians got perhaps the best middle infield prospect in the game-
a
> guy who the Expos were looking to call up later *this year* after he tore
up
> AA ball. A guy who's 20 years old and TORE UP the EL.
Grady Sizemore is also only 20 and leads his team in walks. Don't know much
more about him, but he may not be a mere throw-in.
>
> I'm thinking that the Indians minor league pitching is the mirror image of
> their major league hitting. It's strong, it's deep, and it's getting
better
> as the season progresses. If there's a team that can withstand the loss
of
> a Colon over the long term, it's the Indians.
Are we sure about this? In the mid-90s, the Indians had a deep minor league
system full of great pitching prospects . . . Julian Tavarez, Albie Lopez,
Alan Embree, Jaret Wright, Bartolo Colon, Chad Ogea, and I may be forgetting
a few. Exactly one of them was as good as Bartolo Colon and none of the
others are even close (yet -- we all hope Sabbathia will be that good).
Minor league pitchers are known to be very risky . . . that's why teams need
to stockpile them. In Brandon, we have a guy with 380 on-base and 505 slg .
. pretty good, to be sure, but these aren't numbers like A-Rod or Manny
put up in AA.
Not to say this is a bad trade -- honestly, now that it's happened, throwing
in the towel is probably a wise move. 5 games under .500 with almost no one
who can actually hit. The team is going nowhere and figures they can't be
competitive until 2004. If Shapiro determined that he wouldn't be able to
sign Colon, then moving him now is the right thing to do.
>
> And then. And then I read a post that glosses over Brandon Phillips like
> he's Greg LaRocca or similar detritus. And that ignores Cliff Lee-
perhaps
> the best lefty in the EL. And that centers on Lee Stevens- a throw in,
> vanilla, bench, depth player at best- as being Shapiro's main focus in
this
> trade.
>
Yep. Lee Stevens is largely irrelevant. On the other hand, his career OPS
is 777 and the Indians team OPS is a pathetic 710. So he can help on those
days when Ellis is hurting. I thought I remembered from my APBA days that
Lee Stevens has played LF before . . . can anyone confirm?
I don't think the acquisition of Stevens necessarily means that Thome will
be next to go. Gives them some flexibility to trade Ellis Burks OR Thome.
> The same Colon
> who was hounded for being a fat, lazy, disappointment this time last year.
Shoot . . . he was hounded THIS year for not stepping up and becoming the
ace the team always needed . . .
>
> Tell ya what, folks. Shapiro's made his share of mistakes, if not more.
> But it would take the mama of all TCE's to make acquiring Brandon (Crap)
> Phillips one of them.
The jury is out and will stay out for a few more years. Before this,
Shapiro's career was banked on Alex Escobar . . . at least now he's got some
more talent to call his own.
HSDPpres
untouchable would have been Colon. Every team in the majors needs and ace, a
number 1 started, and that is what Colon was and is. He is only 29 and still has
about 6 or 7 more very productive years ahead of him, barring injury. He would
have still been in his prime, even in the years that the Indians organization are
targeting for their return to prominince, at the end of the rebuilding.
And cost was not too much. There was a club option on Colon for next year at 6
million, peanuts compared to the average number 1 starter salary. hell, if
Montreal can afford him, then anyone can afford him.
I am not belittleing the prospects the Indians received in return for Colon, just
that I never would have traded Colon, period.
After Colon, I would consider Omar as the next untouchable. He is still hitting
and feilding at the top of field for shortstops, and is comparatively cheap for
his performance level.
Then it would have been Baez, then Sabathia.
But for me, nobody would have pried Colon away.
And I am fully aware of the rebuilding process of major league baseball teams.
And I have been a die hard Indians fan since I used to ride the train by myself
from Youngstown in the 3rd and 4th grades, to Cleveland, to watch them play. As
an aside, can you imagine any parent today putting their 8 or 9 year old on a
train by himself to go to a baseball game 70 miles away?
Dwayne
Steven Hubbard
----- Original Message -----
From: <NLKo...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: cle.sports
To: <terry...@yahoo.com>
Cc: <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> We got a very good AAA SS and a very good AA pitcher and an average A
player
> who probably won't make it. It took 5 years for Colon to develop into an
> ace, and that was not inlcuding his time at AAA (from 97 when he came up).
> At that rate, it will take, let's see, probably 3-4 years before this
pitcher
> even makes it to the majors, and that's if he doesn't get hurt first.
And that's the hard part I have with this trade and why I can't say it's a
good move. You stockpile in the minor leagues hoping to get guys as good as
Colon. To develop one and then trade for 2 guys who also might be that good
is very risky. Luck is not a good way to develop a team.
>The
> SS, according to the paper, could come up maybe next year. I suppose he
> could be worth it, but I'm sorry I don't feel like paying $25 per seat to
> watch AAA call ups.
It's much better if those callups are Brandon Phillips and Alex Escobar than
if they're Chad McGruder and Earl Snyder.
>
> I'm not saying they shouldn't have done anything, but look at it this way.
> We have been told since the beginning of the season this team would be
built
> around pitching. Well, it's not. It's going to be built around minor
> leaguers who make league minimum. Bart Colon, a home-grown product,
should
> have been the cornerstone of this rotation for years.
The trouble with this argument is that we don't really know what Shapiro
knows. How likely was it that Colon would re-sign? How much would he cost?
If the team has a budget, that's not Shapiro's to set and he has to figure
out risk and reward. Beyond that, your point is a hard one to get past . .
if you want to build your team around pitching, why do you trade one that
is among the best in baseball and just now moving into his prime?
> But for these players, I
> would have given up Finley, not Colon.
Obviously . . . But if you were the Expos, would you trade your top 2 minor
leaguers for Chuck Finley who isn't as good AND you can't keep in the
off-season? Had the Indians traded Thome for this package, it would be a
different story. It would be sad because Thome is probably my favorite
player on the team, but it would be a different value story . . .
> According to today's PD, Shapiro said
> he had to make this deal because no one was willing to give up major
league
> level talent. Then what's the hurry?
But this is just garbage that a GM HAS to say something to the paper --
just spin like we always got from John Hart. If it's true that no one would
trade major league talent for Colon, it's because he didn't really try.
> Wouldn't there have been some better
> deal at the end of the month? Maybe. Who's next? Probably Thome.
> Eveyone, from ESPN on down, is lambasting this deal.
I'm not sure what food chain ESPN is the top of. I don't think Mike
MacFarlane or Jeff Brantley have ever had to run a baseball team. The
interesting part is not so much the lambasting that people talk about
Montreal making a great move and the Indians have "thrown in the towel".
> It was done hastily and
> without much thought for the people who pay this team's bills.
Last I checked, the Jake doesn't sell out every night. So it appears that
the people who pay the bills aren't paying as much as they used to . . .
> Now, are they
> going to lower ticket prices next year too? I doubt it.
If they do, will the Jake sell out? I doubt it.
>
> What hasn't been discussed here is the other deal that came down last
night.
> Martin Vargas, an AAA reliever who's been their closer, was SOLD to a
> Japanese team for $500,000. No players, just cash. On a team who's
bullpen
> consists of flotsam like Mark Wohlers and Chad Paronto, they let a player
go
> simply because he's out of options and they didn't think he'd make the
major
> league roster next year. Why?
If he's out of options AND won't make the team, isn't it a pretty good deal
to get $500,000 for him?
> Shapiro said yesterday
> he'd make a Joe Carter type deal for Colon. Well, for Carter they got
Sandy
> Alomar and Carlos Baerga, who were both major league ready when they got
> here. This is no way a Joe Carter deal.
>
The interesting comparison, I think, is that the Indians had JOBS for Baerga
and Alomar. As good as Mr Phillips may be, I'm not sure where they plan to
play him. With any luck, he can play 3rd and they should call him up
absolutely as soon as possible. If he's solely a shortstop, then I don't
get it . . .
In 1993, the best minor league hitters in baseball were Manny Ramirez,
Carlos Delgado, and Jim Thome. So the Indians HAD 2 of the top 3 hitters in
the minors AND Baerga, Belle, Alomar already with the big club. It was
pretty miraculous that the Indians put themselves in this position, and that
has to be what Shapiro is trying to arrange again.
Steven Hubbard
----- Original Message -----
From: "HSDPpres" <HSDP...@fuse.net>
Newsgroups: cle.sports
To: <NLKo...@aol.com>
Cc: <jeff_...@indians.fan.org>; <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> You know, My feelings are this. On this team, the only play that would
have been
> untouchable would have been Colon. Every team in the majors needs and
ace, a
> number 1 started, and that is what Colon was and is. He is only 29 and
still has
> about 6 or 7 more very productive years ahead of him, barring injury. He
would
> have still been in his prime, even in the years that the Indians
organization are
> targeting for their return to prominince, at the end of the rebuilding.
And the Indians had an ace in 1989 in Tom Candiotti. Traded him for Mark
Whiten and Glenallen Hill . . . didn't exactly spark the team turnaround
with that one did they? The time before that was the Rick Sutcliffe trade
that yielded Mel Hall and Joe Carter. Joe Carter, of course, turned into
Baerga and Alomar.
>
> And cost was not too much. There was a club option on Colon for next year
at 6
> million, peanuts compared to the average number 1 starter salary. hell,
if
> Montreal can afford him, then anyone can afford him.
Seems obvious that he's a bargain now, but the $6 million isn't the problem.
It's the $16+ million he'll get in 2004. Montreal WON'T afford that and
neither would the Indians, apparently.
>
> I am not belittleing the prospects the Indians received in return for
Colon, just
> that I never would have traded Colon, period.
Well said . . .frankly, Colon is what you hope for when you have prospects.
>
> After Colon, I would consider Omar as the next untouchable. He is still
hitting
> and feilding at the top of field for shortstops, and is comparatively
cheap for
> his performance level.
Sorry to disagree. I think this is the PERFECT time to trade Omar if anyone
wants him. I bet thought that most team realize he's hitting better than he
should be, and the 2nd half probably won't be so productive. I don't think
they could get top talent for Omar Vizquel.
Gustaaf Brooijmans
> But then I'm reading about this trade and I'm doing (figurative) cartwheels
> that the Indians got perhaps the best middle infield prospect in the game- a
> guy who the Expos were looking to call up later *this year* after he tore up
> AA ball. A guy who's 20 years old and TORE UP the EL.
This kid seems to be _ahead_ of Jeter, just a little behind ARod... he
might basically be Nomar.
>
> I'm thinking that the Indians minor league pitching is the mirror image of
> their major league hitting. It's strong, it's deep, and it's getting better
> as the season progresses. If there's a team that can withstand the loss of
> a Colon over the long term, it's the Indians.
That's correct. I was kind of expecting that the Indians would deral a
bunch of triple A pitchers, but they wouldn't have gotten these kids in
return.
>
> And then. And then I read a post that glosses over Brandon Phillips like
> he's Greg LaRocca or similar detritus. And that ignores Cliff Lee- perhaps
> the best lefty in the EL. And that centers on Lee Stevens- a throw in,
> vanilla, bench, depth player at best- as being Shapiro's main focus in this
> trade.
>
> And it hits me. People's minds are made up. It doesn't make any difference
> what the facts are. Charlie's an idiot. I'm sure Chris Chambliss or Joel
> Skinner or Willie Randolph will be idiots, too, when they take over the
> club. Shapiro's an idiot for trading Alomar for "suspects." Then he's an
> idiot for trading Colon for prospects- even though they happen to be
> regarded nearly universally as two of the best in the game. The same Colon
> who was hounded for being a fat, lazy, disappointment this time last year.
You know what, there's a bunch of people that call in to the idiotic talk
shows, and there a bunch of people that listen to them. Interestingly
enough though, there are still 25k-35k people going to the Jake every
night, getting their first look at what could be a very nice lineup a
couple of years from now. I watch them and I try to see what the Indians
will be in 2004. I see a very solid pitching staff, and I see Smith,
Phillips, Escobar, Martinez, Broussard + some FA on the corners. This is
how you build a team: look at the NYY. Now get us Buck Showalter to put
it all together...
>
> Tell ya what, folks. Shapiro's made his share of mistakes, if not more.
> But it would take the mama of all TCE's to make acquiring Brandon (Crap)
> Phillips one of them.
>
> But you know what? It just doesn't matter, apparently.
I don't think Nancy is representative for all the Indians fans around the
globe...
Gus
Todd Sawicki
By Jim Callis
June 27, 2002
If Major League Baseball had its way, the Expos would have ceased to exist
during the offseason. Yet on Thursday it was Montreal that bolstered its
improbable playoff run with the first blockbuster trade of the 2002 season.
The Expos added legitimate No. 1 starter Bartolo Colon but had to surrender
three prime prospects to the Indians: Brandon Phillips, the best shortstop
in the minors; Cliff Lee, one of the top lefthanders in the upper minors;
and Grady Sizemore, a very toolsy outfielder. Cleveland also took on first
baseman Lee Stevens and gave up $925,000 to lessen the financial hit on
Montreal. The Expos also received righthander Tim Drew, who otherwise might
have replaced Colon in the Indians rotation.
Colon, whose age was revised upward from 26 to 28 in the offseason amid
rumors he's even older, already has reached double figures in victories for
the fifth straight season. He's 10-4 with a career-low 2.55 ERA through 16
starts, though he has struck out an uncharacteristically low 75 in 116
innings. Bothered by soreness in his right side, Colon might miss one start
but should make his Montreal debut no later than next week. His two best
pitches are a mid-90s fastball that has been clocked as high as 100 mph, and
a hard curveball. He has a lifetime record of 75-45, 3.92 in 162 big league
games, including 873 strikeouts in 1,030 innings. He teams with Javier
Vazquez to now give the Expos one of the best 1-2 starter combos in the
majors. At $4.925 million this year and $6 million for 2003, Colon is signed
at well below market value.
Brandon Phillips
Photo: Morris Fostoff
Phillips, who turns 21 on Friday, is a rare five-tool shortstop, and he
already has reached Triple-A. He has made constant progress since the Expos
made him a second-round pick out of a Georgia high school in 1999. He hit
242-11-72 with 23 steals in low Class A during 2000, then jumped to
292-11-59 with 30 swipes in 122 games between high Class A and Double-A in
2001. This year he batted .327-9-35 with six steals in 60 Double-A games,
and .257-1-25 in 10 contests at Ottawa. He has a very quick bat and could
blossom into a 20-20 player in the major leagues. Phillips doesn't have
blazing speed and some scouts question whether he can stay at shortstop for
the long term. But he's very quick and instinctive, which makes him a
basestealing threat and gives him the range to play short. He definitely has
enough arm and athleticism for the position. The Indians may not be able to
trade Omar Vizquel, who has $15 million remaining on his contract the next
two seasons, so Phillips may break into their starting lineup as a
replacement for third baseman Travis Fryman, whose $6 million option for
2003 certainly will be declined.
Cliff Lee
Photo: David Schofield
Lee, 23, was a fourth-round pick out of the University of Arkansas in 2000,
when the Expos believed he was one of the top three college lefthanders
available. He would have won the high Class A Florida State League ERA title
with a 2.79 mark last year had a stiff shoulder not sidelined him for a
month and left him 2 1/3 innings short of qualifying. Lee will show four
above-average pitches at times (two- and four-seam fastballs, a slider and a
curveball) and has made terrific strides with his command in 2002. In 15
starts at Double-A Harrisburg, he went 7-2, 3.23 with a 105-23
strikeout-walk ratio in 86 innings. Opponents were batting just .197 against
him, and he's leading the Eastern League in whiffs.
Sizemore, 19, was a third-round pick in 2000 out of a Washington high school
and commanded a $2 million bonus in order to give up a football scholarship
from Washington. His bat speed, foot speed and center-field range are all
very impressive, and he should hit for power as he matures and learns to
coordinate his swing better. He hit .268-2-61 with 32 steals as one of the
youngest players in the low Class A Midwest League last season, and his 81
walks attested to a batting eye that's very refined for his age. Sizemore
has struggled somewhat in the pitcher-friendly FSL in 2002, batting
258-0-26 with nine steals in 75 games, though he has hit his share of
doubles (15) and continued to show patience at the plate (36 walks).
Drew, 23, slowly has gotten back on track after the Indians threw off his
development by foolishly rushing him to the big leagues two years ago. He
and his older brother J.D., now a budding star with the Cardinals, made
history in 1997 when they became the first siblings to go in the first round
of the same draft. (A third brother, Florida State shortstop Stephen Drew,
won BA's 2002 Freshman of the Year award and could be a first-rounder in
2004.) A product of a Georgia high school, Tim has an unsightly 1-2, 8.39
record to show for 11 major league appearances, but he went 8-4, 3.27 in 15
starts for Triple-A Buffalo this year. His 43-23 strikeout-walk ratio in 96
innings is evidence of his fine command as well as his lack of an
overpowering fastball. His best pitch is his changeup, and he needs to be
more aggressive against big league hitters.
Stevens, 34, was included in the trade only because his $4 million salary
and the $925,000 in cash matched for Colon's 2002 salary, as the Expos can't
expand their Major League Baseball-controlled budget. He hit .190-10-31 in
63 games for Montreal, easily the worst performance in a 10-year career that
has seen him bat .256-139-505 in 959 contests.
After they jettisoned a pair of potential Hall of Famers Roberto Alomar and
Juan Gonzalez during the offseason, it's obvious that the disappointing
Indians' goal has become to further slash salaries. But Colon is one player
they should have held onto. He was more than affordable, and Cleveland can
just let players like Fryman, Chuck Finley and talented but much more
expensive Jim Thome walk at the end of the year. That said, once the Indians
made the decision to deal Colon for prospects, they couldn't have asked for
any more in return. If the Expos were more certain of their future, they may
have reconsidered this deal.
Copyright 2002 Baseball America. All rights reserved.
This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
Jeff Blair
> We got a very good AAA SS and a very good AA pitcher and an average A player
> who probably won't make it. The SS, according to the paper, could come up
> maybe next year. I suppose he could be worth it, but I'm sorry I don't feel
> like paying $25 per seat to watch AAA call ups.
YMMV. I do, when they're names like Phillips, or Beckett, or Byrd, or
Prior. I don't when they're names like Magruder, Allen, or Nerio Rodriguez.
I understand your point, but I honestly think you're underrating that "very
good AAA SS." He can flat out hit, he's 20, and he brings the Indians into
the 21st century mode of slugging middle infielders.
>
> I'm not saying they shouldn't have done anything, but look at it this way.
> We have been told since the beginning of the season this team would be built
> around pitching. Well, it's not. It's going to be built around minor
> leaguers who make league minimum.
First of all, the sad truth is that so much has gone wrong with this team
that minor leaugers who make league minimum are likely *better* than some of
the starters.
As for the pitching, we've consistently been told that pitching is the
strength of the organization. I can't help it if you don't believe that,
but if you'd care to look at the Indians' system from Buffalo on down to
Mahoning Valley, you'd see that's true. The number of solid pitching
prospects is outstanding. It makes sense to me, then, to trade from a
position of strength. And to trade a player who's probably at the height of
his value, due to a sudden jump in performance level and free agency being a
fair distance off.
> But for these players, I would have given up Finley, not Colon. According to
> today's PD, Shapiro said he had to make this deal because no one was willing
> to give up major league level talent. Then what's the hurry? Wouldn't there
> have been some better deal at the end of the month? Maybe.
Sure. If you could get one of the top 20 prospects in the game for a 40
year old pitcher, I'd do that. The Expos, however, wouldn't.
Is that what this is all about? "Major league talent"? Are we as fans
unwilling to look even a couple of months into the future? Would we rather
see, say, Neifi Perez at SS, because he's "major league talent?"
> Eveyone, from ESPN on down, is lambasting this deal. It was done hastily and
> without much thought for the people who pay this team's bills. Now, are they
> going to lower ticket prices next year too? I doubt it.
Strong words. Admittedly, I haven't read more than a few articles here and
there, but it's one thing if "Stash from Parma" dismisses the deal out of
hand. It's another thing if reasoned analysis shows it to be an unqualified
loser. Here's what I've read:
http://games.espn.go.com/content/flb/2002/story?id=1399907
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2002/06/27/colon_tradeanalysi
s/ (watch the URL wrapping issues there)
http://www.baseballprimer.com/to/archives/00000489.shtml#comments_24
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2002/06/27/colon_tradeanalysi
s/ (here too)
or this from Ken Rosenthal:
"They gave up what some people would consider their top three prospects,
what other people would consider their first, second and fourth or fifth.
Not many teams can do that. They can because what they do now will have a
huge impact on the future of a lot of people's careers in that franchise."
> What hasn't been discussed here is the other deal that came down last night.
> Martin Vargas, an AAA reliever who's been their closer, was SOLD to a
> Japanese team for $500,000. No players, just cash. On a team who's bullpen
> consists of flotsam like Mark Wohlers and Chad Paronto, they let a player go
> simply because he's out of options and they didn't think he'd make the major
> league roster next year. Why? I don't know, but this is a sign of a team
> deeply in financial trouble.
So you're dismissing minor leaguers in one paragraph, then lamenting the
fact that one is sold to Japan? First of all, this type of thing happens
all the time. Second of all, Vargas is pretty much a career minor-leaguer-
he's been bouncing around between AAA and AA for a while now. Third, he was
passed up by people like Dave Elder, Dan Guillory, and my fave- Alex
Herrera. You're simply reading too much in these tea leaves.
I understand this is an unpopular move by an unpopular G.M. for an unpopular
team. I'm sorry to see Colon go. I'm sorry that John Hart mortgaged this
team's future to the extent he did. But I'm not sorry to go from season to
season wondering if a grizzled veteran or three can regain past glory. I'm
not sorry to see the end of "professional hitters" shuttling into Jacobs
Field, then proceeding to have the worst year of their lives.
And I won't be sorry to see a team with Phillips, Broussard, Victor
Martinez, Billy Traber, Brian Tallet, and similar players in the lineup next
year. I understand I may be alone in the Jake next year watching them.
Fine. I respect your opinions and choices on what to do with your
entertainment dollar.
More beer for me anyway.
--Jeff
Jeff Blair
>> If there's a team that can withstand the loss of a Colon over the long term,
>> it's the Indians.
>
> Are we sure about this? In the mid-90s, the Indians had a deep minor league
> system full of great pitching prospects . . . Julian Tavarez, Albie Lopez,
> Alan Embree, Jaret Wright, Bartolo Colon, Chad Ogea, and I may be forgetting
> a few. Exactly one of them was as good as Bartolo Colon and none of the
> others are even close (yet -- we all hope Sabbathia will be that good).
> Minor league pitchers are known to be very risky . . . that's why teams need
> to stockpile them.
Sure? Naaah. But the Indians can throw numbers at the problem now. Need a
lefty to replace Finley? What are the odds that one of Lee or Traber or
Stanford or Tallet can do that? A heckuva lot better than the odds that
someone from a pool of one or two could. Don't forget about Jeremy Guthrie-
the consensus pitcher most major-league ready in this year's draft.
>In Brandon, we have a guy with 380 on-base and 505 slg .
> . . pretty good, to be sure, but these aren't numbers like A-Rod or Manny
> put up in AA.
A-Rod is a special case. A very special case. When he was 20, he was in
the majors, wasn't he? But understand- this was a kid 20 years old doing
this in his first exposure to the league. And I'm not sure what Manny did
in AA, but if a SS can do 75% of what he did- I'll take it!
--Jeff
T-Bone
I was offline the past 2 days, on a little beach vacation, no radio, TV, or newspapers. I come back and Colon is gone! So, I'm just finding out right now about it on this list. Wow.
I really thought they'd postpone this move until mid-season, 2003. I was more predicting Thome to go in this sort of deal this year, and I imagine now the auction for him begins between Atlanta and his golfing buddies in Beantown. Double wow.
And without question this is a White Flag deal: Indians GM Mark Shapiro told ESPN that now that this deal is done, "It's a sign that we're no longer attempting to contend this summer. So I'll talk to every veteran player about where we're going and how it should be handled."
I'm hoping they manage to hold on to Omar: he's all that will remain of the Pennant teams, he's having a fine season, and he's moving into HOF range.
Bob Collins must be spinning in his swivel chair.
"Well, you know Harry....now there's a little bit of *chin music* for ya..."
----Cleveland Indians announcer Jim Mudcat Grant, July 1973, watching Gaylord Perry pitch.
------------------------------------------------
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Steven Hubbard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Blair" <jeff_...@indians.fan.org>
To: "Cleveland Sports Mailing List" <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
>
> Sure? Naaah. But the Indians can throw numbers at the problem now. Need
a
> lefty to replace Finley? What are the odds that one of Lee or Traber or
> Stanford or Tallet can do that? A heckuva lot better than the odds that
> someone from a pool of one or two could. Don't forget about Jeremy
Guthrie-
> the consensus pitcher most major-league ready in this year's draft.
No doubt the Indians have a well-stacked minor league pitching staff.
Traber and Lee may be the best 2 pitchers in the Eastern League. Still,
they just traded Colon to improve their chances of getting a guy as good as
Colon. It's a good package, I think -- I like it more now that I know that
Grady Sizemore is 19 and not 20. Extra years before age 23 are a big deal
for hitters. Still, to trade your best pitcher so you can "throw numbers"
at your chances of getting a good pitcher doesn't sound right. There has to
be more to it.
I think that as the Indians build to 2004 and years after that, they didn't
WANT to bet on Colon who they may well lose to free agency after 03.
Talented minor leaguers are a done deal between now and 07/08. Still, is
there enough talent in the minors to rebuild the team? I still don't see
enough hitters to carry a top-notch team.
>
> >In Brandon, we have a guy with 380 on-base and 505 slg .
> > . . pretty good, to be sure, but these aren't numbers like A-Rod or
Manny
> > put up in AA.
>
> A-Rod is a special case. A very special case. When he was 20, he was in
> the majors, wasn't he? But understand- this was a kid 20 years old doing
> this in his first exposure to the league. And I'm not sure what Manny did
> in AA, but if a SS can do 75% of what he did- I'll take it!
My point was that A-Rod and Manny WERE special cases (200 OPS points higher
than Brandon). So is Bartolo, and I'd feel better if this were one special
case for another.
Gustaaf Brooijmans
>
> I think that as the Indians build to 2004 and years after that, they didn't
> WANT to bet on Colon who they may well lose to free agency after 03.
> Talented minor leaguers are a done deal between now and 07/08. Still, is
> there enough talent in the minors to rebuild the team? I still don't see
> enough hitters to carry a top-notch team.
Correct, and that's why I expected them to trade some of their pitching
prospects for hitters. That being said, in my mind you need to "grow"
your own talent through the middle, because those guys are hard to get on
the FA market. The corner guys are easier (and again I have to point at
the Yankees, who basically swapped all the corner guys in the offseason
using the FA market). Shapiro recognized that his attempt at rebuilding
while contending failed, possibly partially because of bad luck (Escobar),
and the general below-career season by most players on the team. Trading
Colon is definitely painful, and I'd rather have seen Sabathia or Baez go,
but in 2004 it's not unlikely that we'll be happy with this deal.
> My point was that A-Rod and Manny WERE special cases (200 OPS points higher
> than Brandon). So is Bartolo, and I'd feel better if this were one special
> case for another.
Brandon is no ARod - the question is whether he'll develop into a Jeter.
It looks to me like he could be halfway between Jeter and Garciaparra.
g.
Gustaaf Brooijmans
>
> General comments - Has anyone noticed that the team that we traded with is
> one team that may not be around next season? Would there be a possibility
> of us getting back Colon after the season if the team does disintegrate?
I think that's part of the reason the Expos made the trade - to keep the
franchise alive. In 3 years we'll know if this was a good trade or not,
but after all those years of searching for a #1, it's certainly
frustrating to trade that man away...
g.
Steven Hubbard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gustaaf Brooijmans" <gus...@fnal.gov>
Newsgroups: cle.sports
To: "Steven Hubbard" <shub...@nycap.rr.com>
Cc: "CSML" <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> > Still, is
> > there enough talent in the minors to rebuild the team? I still don't
see
> > enough hitters to carry a top-notch team.
>
> Correct, and that's why I expected them to trade some of their pitching
> prospects for hitters. That being said, in my mind you need to "grow"
> your own talent through the middle, because those guys are hard to get on
> the FA market. The corner guys are easier (and again I have to point at
> the Yankees, who basically swapped all the corner guys in the offseason
> using the FA market).
But they're not following the Yankees model because in that model you never
trade Bartolo Colon.
You also NEED big-time hitters, and that's what I think the Indians are
lacking. As much pain as I feel watching Colon go, I can at least pretend
that we'll have a top-notch young pitching staff in 04/05. Are there enough
hitters to turn that into a top team? I don't think so. Considering
everyone in the Indians organization right now, who is likely to be the best
hitter come 2004? I bet it's Jim Thome.
The Yankees were often heralded as a hugely succesful team that DIDN'T have
one big-time star. However, in the late 90s, Bernie Williams regularly had
an OPS around 990 . . . about thhe same as Thome. So to follow the Yankees
model, you need a player with that kind of ability, and I don't see anyone
who will be that good in 04/05 in this organization. Even the Mariners
post-A-Rod -- seemingly a team without a central hitting stud have been
boosted by monster years from Boone, Martinez, and now Olerud.
Yes -- pitching is the critical component for both the Yankees and Mariners,
but you're not a championship calibre team without some big hitters.
> Shapiro recognized that his attempt at rebuilding
> while contending failed, possibly partially because of bad luck (Escobar),
> and the general below-career season by most players on the team.
And the general aging of the team . . . see Orioles, Baltimore for a better
example. I think that Shapiro caught on to this faster than the Orioles
did, and he's not just trying to spend his way out of it.
> Trading
> Colon is definitely painful, and I'd rather have seen Sabathia or Baez go,
> but in 2004 it's not unlikely that we'll be happy with this deal.
Sabbathia and Baez are part of the plan for 2004. Colon wasn't since he's a
FA before then. Shapiro has a budget to work on, and the easiest way to hit
that is to keep away from free agents.
>
>
> > My point was that A-Rod and Manny WERE special cases (200 OPS points
higher
> > than Brandon). So is Bartolo, and I'd feel better if this were one
special
> > case for another.
>
> Brandon is no ARod - the question is whether he'll develop into a Jeter.
> It looks to me like he could be halfway between Jeter and Garciaparra.
>
Maybe, but both Jeter and Garciaparra play on championship calibre teams
that ACQUIRED and KEPT pitching aces. Indians are a long way from that mode
right now.
NLKo...@aol.com
The only way I would have made this deal was if they gave us Guerrero instead
of Stevens.
We've been dying for an ace in every playoff year, and cried and lost because
we lacked it. Now it looked like we had one, but that's over with.
I only hope CC doesn't regress any more.
Nancy Koebel
nlko...@aol.com
NLKo...@aol.com
he would not accept any trade. He will play his contract out in Cleveland.
Gustaaf Brooijmans
>
> But they're not following the Yankees model because in that model you never
> trade Bartolo Colon.
Indeed, in the Yankees model you trade Sabathia (see Eric Milton for
example). Although, the Yankees _did_ trade Wells.
g.
NLKo...@aol.com
That's crucial. If they could get him experience next year on a team that's
going nowhere, that would be even better.
One thing I heard during a Shapiro press conference this afternoon - they are
going to be VERY careful about putting any of these players on the 40 man
roster. That would make them eligible for the union, and if there's a strike
they would lose valuable time in the minors playing. IF they go on the 40
man but stay in the minors, they have to strike.
Nancy Koebel
nlko...@aol.com
Gustaaf Brooijmans
Here we go again. What evidence is there that CC is regressing?
g.
sjm...@commscope.com
If our next window opens in '04, I'm not convinced Colon would be a
legitimate #1. First, there remains speculation that he's older than his
official age of 29. Second, his physical condition makes me worry about
injury potential. Third, he has a longer history of unfulfilled potential
than (at this point) solid #1 caliber pitching.
In '04, Colon could be one of the top 3 or 4 pitchers in the league or he
could be a fading disappointment. I think it could just as easily go
either way.
SMinch
"Steven Hubbard" <shub...@nycap.rr.com>@lists.apk.net on 06/28/2002
04:12:25 PM
Sent by: owner-...@lists.apk.net
To: "Gustaaf Brooijmans" <gus...@fnal.gov>, "CSML"
<spo...@lists.apk.net>
cc: (bcc: Scott Minch/CommScope)
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gustaaf Brooijmans" <gus...@fnal.gov>
Newsgroups: cle.sports
To: "Steven Hubbard" <shub...@nycap.rr.com>
Cc: "CSML" <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> > Still, is
> > there enough talent in the minors to rebuild the team? I still don't
see
> > enough hitters to carry a top-notch team.
>
> Correct, and that's why I expected them to trade some of their pitching
> prospects for hitters. That being said, in my mind you need to "grow"
> your own talent through the middle, because those guys are hard to get on
> the FA market. The corner guys are easier (and again I have to point at
> the Yankees, who basically swapped all the corner guys in the offseason
> using the FA market).
But they're not following the Yankees model because in that model you never
trade Bartolo Colon.
You also NEED big-time hitters, and that's what I think the Indians are
--------------------------------------------------------------------
NLKo...@aol.com
will join KC and other chumpage as the farm team for Major League talent in
NY and LA, etc. We lost Belle and Ramirez because Jacobs didn't want to pay
to keep them here. We now lost Colon. Who's to say we won't lose Sabathia
when he's eligible to be a free agent, and these other guys if they get that
good as well.
I'm not sure there will be any more deals. Shapiro was on Triv and said the
trade market is just about zero right now - not enough teams willing to take
on payroll (Thome). Too many teams trying to get rid of it.
Nancy Koebel
nlko...@aol.com
Levine, Jason
early in their careers. (For evidence of that I might site, well, Bartolo
Colon). With CC you can see that the talent is there. Barring injury CC
should be right on Shapiro's 2004-2005 schedule.
--Jason
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gustaaf Brooijmans [SMTP:gus...@fnal.gov]
> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 3:43 PM
> To: NLKo...@aol.com
> Cc: HSDP...@fuse.net; spo...@lists.apk.net
> Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
>
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 NLKo...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > I only hope CC doesn't regress any more.
>
> Here we go again. What evidence is there that CC is regressing?
>
> g.
>
Jeff Blair
> You also NEED big-time hitters, and that's what I think the Indians are
> lacking. As much pain as I feel watching Colon go, I can at least pretend
> that we'll have a top-notch young pitching staff in 04/05. Are there enough
> hitters to turn that into a top team? I don't think so. Considering
> everyone in the Indians organization right now, who is likely to be the best
> hitter come 2004? I bet it's Jim Thome.
Excellent point. What's galled me over the years is the how the importance
of offense has been downplayed in Cleveland as people rend their garments
over a perceived/real lack of pitching. It was as if scoring runs and
hitting home runs were a *bad* thing.
Well now we've seen the flip side, people. The starters for the most part
this year have kept the team in the game and pitched well. But as someone
said, you've gotta score more than 2 runs a game to win in this league.
Shapiro has at least paid lip service to the fact that this team needs
multiple young hitters. Sacrificing Day for Bradley was a first step.
Stealing Broussard for Branyan was another. Now you add Phillips to the
mix, and you're starting to make headway.
They have to keep it up, however. More deals are inevitable and they *must*
bring a couple corner prospects. I'm talking Choi/Restovich/Blalock type
players. Add those guys to the aforementioned players, and to Martinez and
Church, and we're approaching a level that will make me (and you, I surmise)
more comfortable.
> Yes -- pitching is the critical component for both the Yankees and Mariners,
> but you're not a championship calibre team without some big hitters.
Blasphemy! ;-)
> Maybe, but both Jeter and Garciaparra play on championship calibre teams
> that ACQUIRED and KEPT pitching aces. Indians are a long way from that mode
> right now.
I don't want to get into the ace argument again, but I'm flabbergasted by
how much public opinion of Bartolo appears to have changed in the past few
months. Let's hope C.C. can change people's minds in the same way. Or at
least hope that the Indians are developing a killer staff of #2s to win
every playoff series 4 games to 2.
--Jeff
P.S. More on the trade here: http://cir.blogspot.com/
Jeff Blair
> My big fear with the deal is that it's further indication that the Indians
> will join KC and other chumpage as the farm team for Major League talent in
> NY and LA, etc. We lost Belle and Ramirez because Jacobs didn't want to pay
> to keep them here. We now lost Colon. Who's to say we won't lose Sabathia
> when he's eligible to be a free agent, and these other guys if they get that
> good as well.
Please do me a favor and take a look at the KC farm system. Compare and
contrast it with the Indians'. After doing so, I honestly want you to tell
me how you think the two organizations stack up against each other.
Seriously.
> I'm not sure there will be any more deals. Shapiro was on Triv and said the
> trade market is just about zero right now - not enough teams willing to take
> on payroll (Thome). Too many teams trying to get rid of it.
This is frightening.
Shapiro was on Triv, huh? That bastion of intellect and reason? It's times
like this I'm kinda glad I can't get any Cleveland sports stations on the
Internet anymore...
--Jeff
Steven Hubbard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gustaaf Brooijmans" <gus...@fnal.gov>
To: "Steven Hubbard" <shub...@nycap.rr.com>
Cc: "CSML" <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Steven Hubbard wrote:
> >
> > But they're not following the Yankees model because in that model you
never
> > trade Bartolo Colon.
>
> Indeed, in the Yankees model you trade Sabathia (see Eric Milton for
> example). Although, the Yankees _did_ trade Wells.
>
Well, sure . . . but the got Roger Clemens for him. Good point on Milton.
Todd Sawicki
Knoblauch for Milton.
Todd
Gustaaf Brooijmans
> No they did not get Roger Clemens for Milton - they got the amazing Chuck
> Knoblauch for Milton.
They got Clemens for Wells (to the dismay of many many fans BTW).
g.
---------------------------------------------------------
Gustaaf Brooijmans
Fermilab, MS # 357 Tel: +1 (630) 840 4269
P.O. Box 500 Fax: +1 (630) 840 8481
Batavia, IL 60510
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Mickey and Renee Ferguson
an ace level starting pitcher. Yes, he had a no-hitter while with the
Indians, and he had one 20-win season with the Red Sox. It was only after
he moved to the A's and was converted into a reliever that he really saw
much success. Hindsight tells us that he was a dominant closer for quite a
few years, but as a starter, he was good but not great, and definitely
inconsistent.
This entire scenario reeks of the Bernie Kosar release, where emotion is
ruling over reason. At least with this trade, they got some excellent
prospects. (Yes, there are no guarantees. But then again, how much of a
problem is the injury that Colon currently has? Will it become chronic?)
Let's all just take three deep breaths here...
-----Original Message-----
From: NLKo...@aol.com [mailto:NLKo...@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 7:04 AM
To: jeff_...@indians.fan.org
Cc: spo...@lists.apk.net
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
Charlie Manuel, according to the paper today, found out about the trade
around the time last night's game was supposed to start. That is also when
they told Colon. Charlie didn't make this deal. Charlie is a pawn, just
like the others. He's only here because he's cheap.
It's not TCE, it's memory. These are the kinds of moves they made back in
the late 60's and 70's. They developed players, then traded them when
they'd
actually cost them money. Remember Dennis Eckersley?
Nancy Koebel
nlko...@aol.com
T-Bone
I was under the impression that the Spos weren't even sposed to be making trades---certainly not give-away-the-farm type trades where salary is taken on. I guess they loop-holed that by inflicting Stevens upon us. But still. The Tribe essentially traded with MLB itself. Seems fishy.
Who knows, maybe the plan now is to contract the Indians, and let the Expos move into the Jake. We'd be *years* ahead on the rebuilding curve if that occured. And F Robby back as manager.
"Well, you know Harry....now there's a little bit of *chin music* for ya..."
----Cleveland Indians announcer Jim Mudcat Grant, July 1973, watching Gaylord Perry pitch.
--- On Fri 06/28, Gustaaf Brooijmans wrote:
From: Gustaaf Brooijmans [mailto: gus...@fnal.gov]
To: Nick....@anu.edu.au
Cc: spo...@lists.apk.net
Date: Fri 06/28
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Nick Guoth wrote:
> >
> > General comments - Has anyone noticed that the team that we traded
> with is
> > one team that may not be around next season? Would there be a
> possibility
> > of us getting back Colon after the season if the team does
> disintegrate?
>
> I think that's part of the reason the Expos made the trade - to keep the
> franchise alive. In 3 years we'll know if this was a good trade or not,
> but after all those years of searching for a #1, it's certainly
> frustrating to trade that man away...
>
> g.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> **** Sponsored by APK Net - www.apk.net ****
> Administration address: owner-sportsATremovethis.apk.net
>
------------------------------------------------
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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T-Bone
> This entire scenario reeks of the Bernie Kosar release, where emotion is
> ruling over reason. At least with this trade, they got some excellent
> prospects.
T-Bone
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HSDPpres"
.
>
> And the Indians had an ace in 1989 in Tom Candiotti. Traded him for Mark
> Whiten and Glenallen Hill
Matt Lawton is Mark Whiten, and Alex Escobar is Glenallen Hill.
Steven Hubbard
them Clemens.
David Shlapak
>I'm not sure there will be any more deals. Shapiro was on Triv and said the
>trade market is just about zero right now - not enough teams willing to take
>on payroll (Thome). Too many teams trying to get rid of it.
This is the most interesting question, I think. The Expos in their
current form may disappear after this season; their worries about
Colon's free-agency after '03 may therefore be nil. I think there's
also a lot of uncertainty regarding how the labor situation is going
to play out, which may affect the trade market (in either direction).
Me? I guess I like the deal, given that the Tribe has committed to
rebuilding. In the Big Picture, and as much as I despise the man, I'd
like to see Bud Selig grow some David Stern cojones and just break
the MLBPA. Until we see a radically revised labor agreement, no team
whose names don't rhyme with "Crankies" or "Codgers" will be able to
afford to be consistently good.
Cheers.
--- das
--
David A. Shlapak
dshl...@earthlink.net
"If you get confused, listen to the music play"
Terrence Layne
--- David Shlapak <dshl...@mail.earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'd like to see Bud Selig grow some David Stern
> cojones and just break the MLBPA. Until we see a
> radically revised labor agreement, no team
> whose names don't rhyme with "Crankies" or "Codgers"
> will be able to afford to be consistently good.
>
That's sort of an odd line of reasoning, since MLB has
seen more small market champions than the NBA in the
last 20 years. The A's have certainly been more
successful than the Dodgers. Personally, I believe in
capitalism, so I figure you leave the artificial
constraints off and see what happens. I would hate to
see MLB turn into the NFL where everyone is mediocre,
and champions have to be dismantled because of the
phony back-loaded contracts.
Terry Layne
Portland, OR
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Mickey Ferguson
MLB. In the NBA, if you have two superstars, you're practically guaranteed
a significant run in the playoffs. In MLB it takes far more than two
superstars. What MLB really needs is an NFL-style salary cap and *full* TV
revenue sharing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Terrence Layne [mailto:terry...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 4:45 PM
To: spo...@lists.apk.net
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
Brian Glen Palicia
I wanted to hear the comments here because I have a lot of respect for
CSML. Sad to see Bob Collins is gone.
If you remember, I thought (and still do think) the team should have
been torn up a year ago. Now, the CBA is expiring, our guys are a
little worse and a little older and we're probably getting less for
them.
But I love this deal. Colon is a gem. But look at what we got back!
A few more trades like this will fill up our farm system in no time.
Then we have a low-cost club and can fill in the spots where youngsters
failed or weren't there from trades and FA and off we go again.
I stopped listening to the Tribe last September, to be honest. The
product just seemed stale. Oh I followed the playoffs, but I haven't
listened to a full game this year.
After this trade, I wanna buy some tickets. Even if the kids aren't
up yet, I'm jacked to see them again! Watching these new guys develop
sounds like a lot of fun.
You know what I'd like to see from the intelligent posters here?
I'd like to see a list/assessment of all our young talent. Give me
some projections of what the 04/05 clubs will look like! Move Omar
to 2B and put the rookie at SS? Where does Broussard go?
Steven Hubbard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Blair" <jeff_...@indians.fan.org>
Newsgroups: cle.sports
To: "Cleveland Sports Mailing List" <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Cc: "Steven Hubbard" <shub...@nycap.rr.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
>
> They have to keep it up, however. More deals are inevitable and they
*must*
> bring a couple corner prospects. I'm talking Choi/Restovich/Blalock type
> players. Add those guys to the aforementioned players, and to Martinez
and
> Church, and we're approaching a level that will make me (and you, I
surmise)
> more comfortable.
Getting closer but even Restovich and Blalock are pretty low in walks.
Victor Martinez IS close to that level. What's the deal with Church? Don't
know much about him.
>
> > Maybe, but both Jeter and Garciaparra play on championship calibre teams
> > that ACQUIRED and KEPT pitching aces. Indians are a long way from that
mode
> > right now.
>
> I don't want to get into the ace argument again, but I'm flabbergasted by
> how much public opinion of Bartolo appears to have changed in the past few
> months.
Indeed that's another thread. The point was that the Sox and Yankees didn't
build their teams by shedding quality pitchers.
Bob Deepe
> > This entire scenario reeks of the Bernie Kosar release, where emotion is
> > ruling over reason. At least with this trade, they got some excellent
> > prospects.
>Hey, leave Bernie out of this! He beat the Miami Dolphins on a Monday
>night, playing on a broken ankle. The Modell Browns stopped being the
>Cleveland Browns on the very day he was disrespectfully released.
Minor point....although Kosar did indeed lead a comeback that game while
playing on the broken ankle, the Browns, in fact, ended up losing that
game, as Marino took his team down the field in the last 90 secs.
Bob
NLKo...@aol.com
the role that Bartolo had - just without so many expectations.
The "regression" or perhaps immaturity I've seen probably has to do with his
age, more than his playing ability (the hotel room inicident).
Nancy Koebel
nlko...@aol.com
NLKo...@aol.com
model. In that deal, they knew he would be a free agent. I also believe,
but correct me if I'm wrong, they knew Mussina would be available at the end
of the year. They knew Mussina would not likely go back to Baltimore, and he
fit into their rotation nicely. Plus, Wells and Torre didn't get along, and
I think Torre wanted him out. It was more to please Torre, who had a
contract coming up soon as well, than anything. Wells has always been
considered a clubhouse problem. I think the only reason he's back there now
is the sudden decline in El Duque, who's age is still up in question. And
perhaps they knew the back problems that kept him out most of last year were
imminent.
NLKo...@aol.com
ago.
Shapiro echoed the same comment during his visits to all of the press boxes
last night. My brother and I think that's the spin they're putting on
following Thome's announcement that he won't waive his no trade clause.
They also said in the PD today that the deal was rushed because the
management feared that if the players set a strike date during the break,
clubs won't make ANY trades and the market would have dried up.
NLKo...@aol.com
talk radio. I don't think they'll ever say it (because they don't want to
jeopardize future trades), but that might have more than a bit of credibility.
NLKo...@aol.com
that Milton was a minor leaguer when traded, and I'm not sure the Twins put
him on the major league club even at the beginning of the next season. Now's
when it would have been nice for Bob C. to have been here. Sabathia has been
a major leaguer for two seasons now, not a prospect, which is what Milton was.
NLKo...@aol.com
heard, they sound like they'd try to sell the franchise and move it before
just plain eliminating it.
Duke Latkovic
>>> "T-Bone" <tbone...@excite.com> 06/28/02 07:02PM >>>
I was under the impression that the Spos weren't even sposed to be making trades---certainly not give-away-the-farm type trades where salary is taken on. I guess they loop-holed that by inflicting Stevens upon us. But still. The Tribe essentially traded with MLB itself. Seems fishy.
Who knows, maybe the plan now is to contract the Indians, and let the Expos move into the Jake. We'd be *years* ahead on the rebuilding curve if that occured. And F Robby back as manager.
"Well, you know Harry....now there's a little bit of *chin music* for ya..."
----Cleveland Indians announcer Jim Mudcat Grant, July 1973, watching Gaylord Perry pitch.
--- On Fri 06/28, Gustaaf Brooijmans wrote:
From: Gustaaf Brooijmans [mailto: gus...@fnal.gov]
To: Nick....@anu.edu.au
Cc: spo...@lists.apk.net
Date: Fri 06/28
> >
> > General comments - Has anyone noticed that the team that we traded
> with is
> > one team that may not be around next season? Would there be a
> possibility
> > of us getting back Colon after the season if the team does
> disintegrate?
>
> I think that's part of the reason the Expos made the trade - to keep the
> franchise alive. In 3 years we'll know if this was a good trade or not,
> but after all those years of searching for a #1, it's certainly
> frustrating to trade that man away...
>
> g.
>
> **** Sponsored by APK Net - www.apk.net ****
> Administration address: owner-sportsATremovethis.apk.net
>
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
Duke Latkovic
>>> "T-Bone" <tbone...@excite.com> 06/28/02 07:23PM >>>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HSDPpres"
.
>
> And the Indians had an ace in 1989 in Tom Candiotti. Traded him for Mark
> Whiten and Glenallen Hill
Matt Lawton is Mark Whiten, and Alex Escobar is Glenallen Hill.
Jeff Blair
> Oh, but you can get WTAM now. They returned streaming audio about 3-4 months
> ago.
Really? Do you have a URL? Cleveland.com streams WATJ now. Apparently
they were going to compete with WKNR, but almost immediately abandoned their
local-oriented format for Sporting News Radio 24 hrs. a day.
--Jeff
Jeff Blair
> Getting closer but even Restovich and Blalock are pretty low in walks.
> Victor Martinez IS close to that level. What's the deal with Church? Don't
> know much about him.
Okay, substitute Cuddyer for Restovich and Cust for Blalock. Like the Twins
would ever trade with the Indians anyway...
Church is a CF who's a little too old for his levels, but that's mitigated
somewhat by the fact that he's a converted college pitcher. He showed
excellent power and plate discipline in A ball last year. The Indians are
being a little too patient with him, IMO, and he started in Kinston again
this year and, of course, dominated. He's been up in Akron for a couple
weeks now and has a couple homers, but is still adjusting.
Time is not his ally, though. If he's not up with the Indians sometime next
year, I'd hesitate to keep calling him a prospect. I think he'll be 25 by
then.
> Indeed that's another thread. The point was that the Sox and Yankees didn't
> build their teams by shedding quality pitchers.
Not sure how many quality pitchers the Sox and Yanks have developed.
Recently. Especially the Sox.
Speaking of another thread, would anyone else liked to have heard C.C. say
"I'm going to have to be the ace now, and I'm up to the challenge of proving
to the fans and front office that I can do just that"? Don't get me wrong-
he pitched well last night (I doubt it was because of spite, as some have
suggested). But he's the man from here on out. I hope he knows that.
--Jeff
Bob Collins
> No they did not get Roger Clemens for Milton - they got the amazing Chuck
> Knoblauch for Milton.
> Todd
The Twins also got Christian Guzman and Brian Buchanan in the deal -
and I think there's a 4th player there somewhere that came in that
deal - I want to say it was Luis Rivas but I'm not sure.
BC
Bob Collins
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> Indeed that's another thread. The point was that the Sox and Yankees didn't
> build their teams by shedding quality pitchers.
Jamie Moyer...Hideo Nomo. I think you can make a claim that other than
Pedro, the Sox haven't really had quality pitchers to shed other than
Pedro. Duquette's strategy for the last 4 years has been Pedro and a
bunch of stiffs and maybe lightning will strike one of them (last year
it was Nomo..this year it's Lowe). I mean - geez - Roland Arrojo? Tim
Wakefield?. Even their closer - Ugeth - was perceived as finished when
they picked him up.
I can't explain the Red Sox but I don't think they're much of a
model..and they're right on track for their second half fold. Hey,
how'd _you'd_ like to watch Tony Clark every night? <g>
BC
Duke Latkovic
>>> Jeff Blair <jeff_...@indians.fan.org> 06/29/02 01:44PM >>>
> Getting closer but even Restovich and Blalock are pretty low in walks.
> Victor Martinez IS close to that level. What's the deal with Church? Don't
> know much about him.
Okay, substitute Cuddyer for Restovich and Cust for Blalock. Like the Twins
would ever trade with the Indians anyway...
Church is a CF who's a little too old for his levels, but that's mitigated
somewhat by the fact that he's a converted college pitcher. He showed
excellent power and plate discipline in A ball last year. The Indians are
being a little too patient with him, IMO, and he started in Kinston again
this year and, of course, dominated. He's been up in Akron for a couple
weeks now and has a couple homers, but is still adjusting.
Time is not his ally, though. If he's not up with the Indians sometime next
year, I'd hesitate to keep calling him a prospect. I think he'll be 25 by
then.
> build their teams by shedding quality pitchers.
Steven Hubbard
mayber Traber.
----- Original Message -----
From: <NLKo...@aol.com>
To: <shub...@nycap.rr.com>
Cc: <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
Steven Hubbard
----- Original Message -----
From: <NLKo...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: cle.sports
To: <gus...@fnal.gov>
Cc: <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> The Wells trade is probably the only trade they've made that defies their
> model. In that deal, they knew he would be a free agent. I also believe,
> but correct me if I'm wrong, they knew Mussina would be available at the
end
> of the year. They knew Mussina would not likely go back to Baltimore, and
he
> fit into their rotation nicely. Plus, Wells and Torre didn't get along,
and
> I think Torre wanted him out.
They got Roger Clemens for Wells . . . don't think this defies their model
to acquire good pitchers. They traded Wells in 98 and didn't acquire
Mussina until 2001.
> It was more to please Torre, who had a
> contract coming up soon as well, than anything.
And I suspect he was quite pleased with Roger Clemens!
SfH
Steven Hubbard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Blair" <jeff_...@indians.fan.org>
To: "Cleveland Sports Mailing List" <spo...@lists.apk.net>
Cc: "Steven Hubbard" <shub...@nycap.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
>
> > Indeed that's another thread. The point was that the Sox and Yankees
didn't
> > build their teams by shedding quality pitchers.
>
> Not sure how many quality pitchers the Sox and Yanks have developed.
> Recently. Especially the Sox.
Derek Lowe is about it for the Sox. Pettite and Rivera for the Yanks. What
they haven't done is let any good pitchers LEAVE.
Indians are more in the model that Seattle followed which DID include
rebuilding by trading a big-time pitcher for prospects . . . This is
probably what it felt like for Seattle fans at that time.
NLKo...@aol.com
side for Listen Live. When that opens up click on the big button in the
middle of the page. You need Windows Media Player. My one beef is that when
it's a busy time of day, between 3-5 esp., it cuts out a lot. I tried
repeatedly clicking, but have learned you just have to sit and wait for it to
reconnect as people leave. Your best bet is to get in right at 3:00, because
if you wait you have a hard time getting in.
Nancy Koebel
nlko...@aol.com
nko...@birchard.lib.oh.us
on Sabathia, Drese, and Baez. Colon was supposed to be the leader, and
they did seem to draw from his improvement this year. Now, you're
forcing CC almost to step into Colon's shoes and Drese and Baez, who
knows. They will undoubtedly feel pressured to perform. Will they
regress? Who knows. But I feel the character of the rotation has
changed markedly.
One of the issues that hasn't been resolved is who will take Bart's
place. They won't even make a decision until after the break. It's
being speculated that they might be buying time so that either Jaret or
Nagy will get one or two more rehab starts. One of them will probably
get the call.
Nancy Koebel
Birchard Public Library of Sandusky County
nko...@birchard.lib.oh.us
----- Original Message -----
From: NLKo...@aol.com
Date: Saturday, June 29, 2002 9:56 am
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> OK, regressing might not be the word. But now he's more or less
> forced into
> the role that Bartolo had - just without so many expectations.
>
> The "regression" or perhaps immaturity I've seen probably has to
> do with his
> age, more than his playing ability (the hotel room inicident).
>
> Nancy Koebel
> nlko...@aol.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
nko...@birchard.lib.oh.us
agree to the deal if Cle. too Stevens (who makes about $4 million) and
the estimated $500,000 difference in cash. Stevens was truly a throw
in, because he's probably the only player they had who made close to
Bart's salary).
Nancy Koebel
Birchard Public Library of Sandusky County
nko...@birchard.lib.oh.us
----- Original Message -----
From: Duke Latkovic <wl...@loc.gov>
Date: Saturday, June 29, 2002 11:01 am
Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
> The Expos are not allowed to pick up Bart's $6 mil option for '03 -
> so
> he will be a FA in '03 (unless of course the expo's are sold to
> Washington group, etc.) - the Tribe sent $925,000 to the Expos and
> tookon Stevens salary as well - hence the Vargas deal too
>
> >>> "T-Bone" <tbone...@excite.com> 06/28/02 07:02PM >>>
>
> I was under the impression that the Spos weren't even sposed to be
> making trades---certainly not give-away-the-farm type trades where
> salary is taken on. I guess they loop-holed that by inflicting Stevens
> upon us. But still. The Tribe essentially traded with MLB itself.
> Seemsfishy.
>
> Who knows, maybe the plan now is to contract the Indians, and let the
> Expos move into the Jake. We'd be *years* ahead on the rebuilding
> curveif that occured. And F Robby back as manager.
>
>
> "Well, you know Harry....now there's a little bit of *chin music* for
> ya..."
> ----Cleveland Indians announcer Jim Mudcat Grant, July 1973, watching
> Gaylord Perry pitch.
>
> --- On Fri 06/28, Gustaaf Brooijmans wrote:
> From: Gustaaf Brooijmans [mailto: gus...@fnal.gov]
> To: Nick....@anu.edu.au
> Cc: spo...@lists.apk.net
> Date: Fri 06/28
> Subject: Re: [csml] Colon traded!
>
> > On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Nick Guoth wrote:
> > >
> > > General comments - Has anyone noticed that the team that we
> traded
> > with is
> > > one team that may not be around next season? Would there be a
> > possibility
> > > of us getting back Colon after the season if the team does
> > disintegrate?
> >
> > I think that's part of the reason the Expos made the trade - to keep
> the
> > franchise alive. In 3 years we'll know if this was a good trade or
> not,
> > but after all those years of searching for a #1, it's certainly
> > frustrating to trade that man away...
> >
> > g.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> > **** Sponsored by APK Net - www.apk.net ****
> > Administration address: owner-sportsATremovethis.apk.net
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
Gustaaf Brooijmans
> This is correct, according to the PD yesterday. Montreal would only
> agree to the deal if Cle. too Stevens (who makes about $4 million) and
> the estimated $500,000 difference in cash. Stevens was truly a throw
> in, because he's probably the only player they had who made close to
> Bart's salary).
Stevens had to come to Cleveland to even out the salaries, since the Expos
are not allowed to increase payroll (they're owned by MLB now). So that
part was purely financial, not even a real throw-in.
g.
Jeff Blair
> Go to the WTAM website at www.wtam.com. There is a link on the right hand
> side for Listen Live. When that opens up click on the big button in the
> middle of the page. You need Windows Media Player.
Thanks! Now if I can just avoid hearing Trivisanno...
--Jeff