[Clayart] Reclaimed clay needs an additive

[Dan Saultman]

My reclaimed clay from throwing scraps is put in a pug mill and
remixed to throwing clay consistency.
However, it is quite grainy and a bit fibrous. I believe it has lost
some of it's creaminess and elasticity.
I use a cone 10 white stoneware.

Can someone suggest an additive like EPK or such to reconstitute the
clay back to it's original consistency without major worries?

Thanks

Dan

Dan Saultman

ETSY Shop: http://www.etsy.com/shop/DanSaultman
Fine-Art Pottery & Tile
Clinton Township, MI
http://www.saultman.com


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[John McClure]

Dan
I do lots of reclaiming and have not had such a problem.  I am speculating that some paper or fibrous material has contaminated your clay scraps.  I have students use my reclaim bucket as the trash can, one forgets how new some folks are to the process.  Second speculation is on the graininess, this may be caused by your process has a step in it that separates the clay particles and you have found yourself using the clay that is denser.  I am wondering if the process does something like making Terra Sig which separates the finer clay from the more coarse clay.  Once the finer clays have been removed the remaining clay no longer throws well.  So I think your steps in the recycling process would be helpful to try and find you an answer.  For example, I let clay dry before putting the scraps into the reclaim bucket after trimming, but I'll pour throwing slip into the bucket from my splash pan.
John
 




________________________________
From: Dan Saultman <des...@saultman.com>
To: New ClayArt Mailing List <cla...@ceramicist.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:08 PM
Subject: [Clayart] Reclaimed clay needs an additive

[ivor and olive lewis]

Dear Dan Saultman,
My suggestion would be to add about 10% of a white "Ballclay" which has an
approximate Silica (SiO2) to Alumina (Al2O3) ratio of two to one. Look for a
product that has low FeO/Fe2O3. Avoid Bentonite and Kaolin.derivatives
By the way, 10 percent is a stab in the dark, Line blending would be better.
Regards,
Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia

[Tony]

What about pugging a percentage of reclaim with fresh clay

-----Original Message-----
From: ivor and olive lewis
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:12 PM
To: New ClayArt Mailing List

[Stanley C. Irvin]

Dan,
I had more or less the same experience reconstituting cone 10 B-Mix. The problem seemed to go away after adding oil to my vacuum pump. Sounds odd, my vacuum gauge now pegs to the max where it didn't before. Suddenly my reconstituted clay is working as we'll as the new clay straight from the bag. One other note, I avoid letting my scrap dry out. I take the slightly stiff trimmings and scraps from hand building and dip them in water and placed in a plastic clay bag until I am ready to pug. This greatly reduces the buckets of scrap around the studio and eliminates much of the mess, time, and space required by large plaster drying bats.

Good luck,
Stan Irvin

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:41 AM, "Tony" <hairy...@iinet.net.au> wrote:

> What about pugging a percentage of reclaim with fresh clay
>
> -----Original Message----- From: ivor and olive lewis
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:12 PM
> To: New ClayArt Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Clayart] Reclaimed clay needs an additive [GroupMail]
>
> Dear Dan Saultman,
> My suggestion would be to add about 10% of a white "Ballclay" which has an
> approximate Silica (SiO2) to Alumina (Al2O3) ratio of two to one. Look for a
> product that has low FeO/Fe2O3. Avoid Bentonite and Kaolin.derivatives
> By the way, 10 percent is a stab in the dark, Line blending would be better.
> Regards,
> Ivor Lewis,
> REDHILL

[Lee]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Dan Saultman <des...@saultman.com> wrote:

> My reclaimed clay from throwing scraps is put in a pug mill and remixed to
> throwing clay consistency.
> However, it is quite grainy and a bit fibrous. I believe it has lost some
> of it's creaminess and elasticity.
> I use a cone 10 white stoneware.
>
> Can someone suggest an additive like EPK or such to reconstitute the clay
> back to it's original consistency without major worries?
>

To get rid of "the crap", turn the clay into a slip and run it through a
screen.

Not sure if your supplier provides it, but I can buy my clay bodies
dry from Continental Clay. It is also what I mix my slips from. If you
think your clay is missing something, you could add dry too.

If my reclaim is too mushy, I add some dry of the same body.
Also, If I need to re-throw some clay right after mushing it up, I will
wedge it on some dry clay powder, to bring it to the right stiffness.
I'd do the same with different fireclays and ball clays.

--
Lee 李 Love in Longfellow,Minneapolis, MN USA

"Ta tIr na n-óg ar chul an tI—tIr dlainn trina chéile"—that is, "The land
of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within
itself." -- John O'Donohue

[cheryl gauvin]

A tip that one of my mentors taught me: I always let my throwing water settle out and syphon off the liquid. I store it in gallon water jugs and use that to wet the scraps when reclaiming clay. The sludge that is left after I syphon off the water is also saved and added to the scraps. My mentor said that that throwing water and sludge contains the many chemicals that make the clay plastic and helps avoid ending up with "punk" reclaimed clay. I add as little fresh water as possible. It's a little extra work, but with the price of clay these days, it's worth the effort. Just a thought.
Cher

[Steve Slatin]

I was going to stay out of this, but feel the urge to comment on the suggestion below -- adding a little ball clay may make the reclaim
'feel' more like the original clay did, but it will change -- if ever so slightly -- the character of the clay in firing. Unless, of course,
your clay body is nothing but ball clay to begin with (or its chemical
equivalent).

I have recently begun using a pug mill for reclaim, and have discovered that when doing so, letting the clay 'rest' for a few weeks makes a marked difference in workability. This, of course, makes sense considering the unlikelihood of a pugmill mixing equally down to the clay-platelet level. Giving the water some time to adjust and move things around is desirable.

Another thing that seems to help -- though I'm just at the beginning of the experiment with it -- is getting a third or so of the reclaim really wet, drying it on a bat until less-than-workable but wet stage, then mixing it with dryer reclaim, the blend coming through the pug seems more consistent in texture and moisture this way, and is markedly more
workable.

In any event I would recommend against adding ball clay -- dried or reconstituted -- as it will almost certainly change the firing characteristics of the reclaim.

Sincerely --
Steve Slatin


N48.0886450
W123.1420482

--- On Wed, 6/19/13, ivor and olive lewis <ian...@westnet.com.au> wrote:

> Dear Dan Saultman,
> My suggestion would be to add about 10% of a white
> "Ballclay" which has an approximate Silica (SiO2) to Alumina
> (Al2O3) ratio of two to one. Look for a product that has low
> FeO/Fe2O3. Avoid Bentonite and Kaolin.derivatives
> By the way, 10 percent is a stab in the dark, Line blending
> would be better.
> Regards,
> Ivor Lewis,
> REDHILL,
> South Australia
>

[dmca...@aol.com]

I think it's best to also reclaim the slop from your throwing water, as this is where the fine particles are. Adding back the fine particles will help get back the "creaminess and elasticity" that you mention.

D. Michael Coffee

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee <tog...@gmail.com>
To: New ClayArt Mailing List <cla...@ceramicist.org>
Sent: Thu, Jun 20, 2013 10:31 am
Subject: Re: [Clayart] Reclaimed clay needs an additive

[Steve Mills]

My to penny worth from across the pond.
I throw my reclaim into a five gallon bucket into which I've already put a
cup full of live cider vinegar together with old throwing water.
When the bucket is full I mix it very thoroughly into a thick slip, and
pour it into a fine mesh bag and hang it up to dry.
By the time the outside of the bag feels firm, the inside is still pretty
soft, but the two mixed together well how to make a good throwing clay.
The combination of vinegar and throwing slip makes a good rapid aging
agent, and the resulting mix is usually better to throw with than the
original.
As a friend of mine puts it you can "throw it round corners!"

Steve M

Steve Mills, Bath, UK sent from my Nexus7

On 20 Jun 2013 03:10, "Dan Saultman" <des...@saultman.com> wrote:

> My reclaimed clay from throwing scraps is put in a pug mill and remixed to
> throwing clay consistency.
> However, it is quite grainy and a bit fibrous. I believe it has lost some
> of it's creaminess and elasticity.
> I use a cone 10 white stoneware.
>
> Can someone suggest an additive like EPK or such to reconstitute the clay
> back to it's original consistency without major worries?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dan
>
> Dan Saultman
>

> ETSY Shop: http://www.etsy.com/shop/**DanSaultman<http://www.etsy.com/shop/DanSaultman>

> Fine-Art Pottery & Tile
> Clinton Township, MI
> http://www.saultman.com
>
>

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> Clayart mailing list
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> Make changes to your subscription, or unsubscribe, at:

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[Dorothy Parshall]

I am not doing LOTS of pots so I have a scrap bucket. When the water
gets too thick in the throwing bowl, it goes in the bucket. Most
scraps dry out before going in, some do not. When I go to work, I
drain water off the top, if there is any, into the throwing bowl.
Recycled water. I lived without running water for almost 15 years in
the Ontario bush. It has taken me 10 years to realize I don't have to
watch every precious drop!
Dorothy, Quebec

On Jun 20, 2013, at 11:54 AM, cheryl gauvin wrote:

> A tip that one of my mentors taught me: I always let my throwing
> water settle out and syphon off the liquid. I store it in gallon
> water jugs and use that to wet the scraps when reclaiming clay. The
> sludge that is left after I syphon off the water is also saved and
> added to the scraps. My mentor said that that throwing water and
> sludge contains the many chemicals that make the clay plastic and
> helps avoid ending up with "punk" reclaimed clay. I add as little
> fresh water as possible. It's a little extra work, but with the
> price of clay these days, it's worth the effort. Just a thought.
> Cher

[Robert Harris]

I'm with Steve (both of them!) on this one.

Don't add anything to your clay - doing so changes it.

The graininess is likely to be because your dried out scraps haven't
properly and completely rewetted all the way through (on a particulate
level).
Either you should turn it into a very thick slip and then drill mix it,
followed by drying on a plaster batt or in a pair of jeans, or you should
do as you currently do (but I'd make it slightly moister than your normal
clay), and then set it aside for a few weeks to let the water fully seep
into the dried out bits. Extra pugging in this case isn't going to help.
The cider vinegar that Steve Mills mentioned will speed the re-wetting
process.
Along the same lines not allowing the scraps to fully dry out (also
mentioned), aids the re-wetting process, although in this case I find that
fully mixing so that one doesn't get hard lumps is more difficult than
pureeing your scraps with lots of water.

Robert

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Steve Slatin <clayst...@yahoo.com>wrote:

> I was going to stay out of this, but feel the urge to comment on the
> suggestion below -- adding a little ball clay may make the reclaim
> 'feel' more like the original clay did, but it will change -- if ever so
> slightly -- the character of the clay in firing. Unless, of course,
> your clay body is nothing but ball clay to begin with (or its chemical
> equivalent).
>

[John Rodgers]

Dan,

You have gotten so really good suggestion from the good clay folk. I
might add one more.

Pee in the scrap bucket. mix thoroughly, and let sit for a month. Pug.
Beautiful clay.

It works!

John

[Mike Gordon]

I heard that in the old days in Japan potters would have the women pee
in the clay. Lee might be able to verify this. Mike Gordon

[ivor and olive lewis]

Dear D. Michael Coffee,
Fair comment.
But Brownian Motion may help to keep the finest clay particles in suspension
even though the water above the visible sediment appears clear. It is these
that are responsible for enhancing the plastic nature of clay. Allowing the
excess supernatant water to evaporate will ensure their retention in the
reclaimed mass

Regards,
Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia

[Steve Mills]

Peeing on the clay was certainly traditional in some of the old country potteries in the UK, as was making up your clay body 18 months plus before its projected use to allow it to "sour" properly.
This was in the days before polythene when the clay was kept under wet sacking in a dark dank place to "mature", and urine helped the souring substantially.
I prefer the smell of Cider vinager

Steve M

Steve Mills
Bath
UK
www.mudslinger.me.uk
Sent from my iPod

[cheryl gauvin]

As a Registered Nurse, I can tell you that urine is sterile, unless the person donating has a urinary tract infection. However, it is a great growing medium for bacteria...but what kind? The clay would have to sit for a while for the bacterial action to go to work.

I agree...cider vinegar seems like a safer way to go. I'd like to see what kind of bacteria grew in a culture of the urine-laden clay!

Cher

> From: original....@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:23:18 +0100
> To: cla...@ceramicist.org
> Subject: Re: [Clayart] Reclaimed clay needs an additive
>

[pdp1]

Hi Cheryl,


I'd say - Get some Urine 'aging' Clay going...take some Swabings, make some
Cultures in the usual way, and, see what shakes!


Mostly, I would expect the Urine to offer some Nitrogen, otherwise, not sure
what it would have to offer for already present or subsequently arriving
Micro-Organisms to benefit by.
Probably mostly Anaerobes of course.

Urine from a Equine ( or anyone else ) in Oestrus, would have some serious
Hormones and Pheromones to contribute.


Of course there are endless Enzymes which would be worth looking into, to
see what they may do, and or, do in combination with what.


Might be able to age Clay so it comes out like Salt Water Taffy! - For all I
know...

Be great for Throwing those super Tall, super Narrow 'Bud Vases then.


Lol...


Phil
L v

-----Original Message-----
From: cheryl gauvin
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 2:08 PM
To: New ClayArt Mailing List

[Hank Murrow]

On Jun 22, 2013, at 2:08 PM, cheryl gauvin wrote:

> As a Registered Nurse, I can tell you that urine is sterile, unless the person donating has a urinary tract infection. However, it is a great growing medium for bacteria...but what kind? The clay would have to sit for a while for the bacterial action to go to work.

Yet urine does have the side effect of more or less keeping thieving hands off well-aged clay!

Cheers, Hank in Eugene

PS: Worked for me in Venice, CA and at the U of Oregon back in the day.

[Mike Gordon]

As I recall the clay was prepared for the potters son. I spent 5
summers at 29 Palms Marine Corps Base in the Mojave desert during my
reservist summer camps. 140 Degrees in the shade! We were told that in
an emergency you could drink your urine rub it all over your skin so
any wind would cool you off. I never tried it! Mike Gordon

On Jun 22, 2013, at 2:08 PM, cheryl gauvin wrote:

[ivor and olive lewis]

Dear Steve, Ron, John, Cheryl, Robert and Phil,
Thank you all for your contributions to this thread.
As my white clay ages it develops a black scum, Red clay,, stored in plastic
bags grows a green scum. No pee nor cider. Just rain water. Rich in nitrogen
and carbon dioxide.
One thing we seem to ignore is the diversity of those substances that, when
combined with Water give us a plastic medium.
If this wealth of material variations is limited to three types it may be
found that one group, in general, adsorbs neither water nor Exchangeable
Cations. The second adsorbs Potassium (or other exchangeable cations) but no
water. The third group adsorbs both Exchangeable Cations and an
extraordinary amount of water. I'm sure Michael Cardew was aware of these
facts when he wrote "Pioneer Pottery".
Perhaps "Peeing on the Clay" is folklore from an earlier age when potteries
did not have government regulations relating to the provision of rest rooms
for employees. So the pug hole, in an out of the way spot in the pottery
yard where clay was left to age, became the place to go when the need arose.
Sincere regards to you all.

Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia