[Clayart] Shino and Spodumene

[vpit...@dtccom.net]

Hi Robert -
You give me credit for knowing more than I do. I know a lot, but when I make a mistake or unintentionally post misleading information on Clayart, someone responds expressing surprise and implying that I should have known better. I appreciate their confidence in me, but I'm only human. I remember one of those silly placards pinned up in offices that said, "To err is human. Must you be so human?"

I guess I don't have any Japanese shino recipes. I checked all my shino recipes and they all contained spodumene. I'll look into this further, because I'd like to introduce more shinos into my soda firings. I might even be able to do it without any American affectations.
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Potter, Writer, Teacher
Chapel Hill, NC
vpit...@dtccom.net
www.vincepitelka.com
https://chathamartistsguild.org/

-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart <clayart...@lists.clayartworld.com> On Behalf Of Robert Harris
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 9:02 PM
To: Clayart international pottery discussion forum <cla...@lists.clayartworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Clayart] HAPPY NEW YEAR CLAYART

Come on, Vince, sometimes you say things that are truly puzzling.

No Japanese shino (you know, actual real shinos) has spodumene in it (as far as I am aware).

Spodumene is an American affectation. Pretty much the only reason it's included is to reduce the amount of crazing that's induced by the soda ash (which again is an American affectation). Low melt spodumene (which was really amblygonite) was handy because of its low melting point, but that hasn't been available for years. I bet you could replace spodumene with NephSy and some kaolin, you'd just have to put up with more crazing.

I wonder if you could replace the soda ash with borax if the crazing is bothersome. It would almost certainly alter the results somewhat, but it would allow the techniques that use the solubility of soda ash to decorate pots.
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[Kathi Koester]

I like your 'human' quote Vince! Standing ovation to you CME Craft Movement
Era potters (1950 - 1999~) who through extensive trial and error and sheer
hard work built the road upon which we all walk. Last year, someone sent me
a recipe that contained an ingredient I'd never even heard of, and I'm sure
only potter's with old cache stores of ingredients would own. Thus, I am
still interested in starting a wider conversation about keeping the studio
process/supply/repair access going as conditions challenge. [clayart] seems
like an amazing resource to continue *real* information. I am so grateful
for the kind responses to emails from [clayart] people. I wish I'd been
part of the era when you gathered to meet during NCECA; I at least look up
all your websites. Are other potters also having trouble getting raw
ingredients to make their clay? I've had to switch plans more than once
this year because I couldn't even get the materials to make clay or a
favorite glaze. Continental Clay Co. has been outstanding to help us these
two years, and I've brought in food for the whole crew more than once. With
all the w-o-r-k involved, I find no shame in having a career job and being
a 'hobby' potter because pottery is still significant hours. So much of
pottery has to be love of the craft, and not $ per hour. When art centers
use terms like "Magic Water" and don't give a recipe, I understand that
most won't care or need to know, or that some glazes are part of their
signature look. Are the pottery 'descendants' of Mel, Vince and others
continuing to TEACH "building" a studio and "building" kilns, and "firing"
outside the range the ingredient label specifies? When some core CME
potters 'retire', will others know how to fix anything, fire the kilns or
adjust glazes?
I hope I have thrown out enough bait for more to bite on.
Kindest Regards,
Kathi_MN
(Restarted pottery after kids, 2019)
https://maknartceramics.square.site/

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"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his
eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20

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[Robert Harris]

VInce - I honestly thought you just hadn't thought about it. I know I often
say something which is true for one context, but not more broadly. And
with Morgan being something of an expert in some Japanese pottery I've
always assumed you knew quite a bit about Japanese glazes. I admit, I made
the assumption you know a lot more about everything and just hadn't tied
the pieces together.

You're right, of course, most (all?) shino recipes we have here have
spodumene and soda ash in them.

It also depends on what you define as a "shino"! (Arguably some of the
snowflake crackle glazes would be shinos under the right circumstances).

In general, I think that Western recipes are a lot more complicated than
those in Japan or many parts of China, where they're still often using the
old traditional methods of a bit of this rock, and bit of that ash, and
maybe some clay. And spodumene is a pretty unusual rock so anything vaguely
traditional isn't going to contain spodumene. (It's also my understanding
that the vast majority of Japanese potters don't make their own glazes,
there is often a village "glaze master" or store, that makes up big batches
for all the potteries in the area. That may just be in the more famous
centers like Mashiko.).

My understanding (and Hank Murrow probably knows a lot more about this than
I do) is that Japanese shinos are still something like 80% of a feldspathic
rock, 15% kaolin and maybe some ash (which if unwashed would contain quite
a bit of potassium or sodium carbonate). From what I've seen online, most
of what they call shino seems to be whiter and often matt-er than ours with
a lot more pinholing. Obviously they get iron blushing and carbon trapping,
but I think it's a lot rarer and harder to control than the western shinos.

I certainly think that a lot of what we like about "American Shinos" (which
is not my description BTW), could be replicated without the spodumene.
They're not going to be identical, of course, but maybe that's not a bad
thing!

Rob

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[Hank Murrow]

Now, here we are on fresh ground in this discussion, because I have carried LowMelt and regular Spodumene to Japan in a fiber drum, along with gift pots for my hosts, on my trips to fire anagamas there, and I found that their near total use of Kspar in their Shinos produced a lovely pinkish tones with the Fe response. Our love in the States for Neph Sye in Shinos has limited our palette in no small measure. I did not use ash nor any other flux to make these. The matting has a lot to do with the slow cooling of their large kilns. If one pulls a Japanese anagama-fired Shino piece out just before shutdown, it is likely to be melted and shiny. I have done this in American kilns, to my great surprise. Such experiments led inexorably to my reliance on a long period of oxidation-soakng around 1800F during the cooling cycle in my gas kiln. The Shinos were transformed!

> I certainly think that a lot of what we like about “American Shinos" (which
> is not my description BTW), could be replicated without the spodumene.
> They're not going to be identical, of course, but maybe that's not a bad
> thing!

What I found with the Kspar/spodumene mixes in Japan was complete acceptance by even senior potters as well as a refined female Tea practitioner. She loved the chawan I brought as well as the ones I made and fired there. YMMV.

I wish a few of us could get together as in the old daze at NCECA to nurse a libation or two and examine some of these wares to compare notes and preferences at leisure.

Cheers to all, Hank in Eugene