Let's get going on this update

[Jacob Sokora]

Obviously we have to do something if we want Civcraft to be up anytime soon and it's either update or patch spigot. I personally think we should update so anyone who can actually program let's fix the bugs that need fixing and let's get a testing server running 1.8 so we can test

[Arieh Kovler]

We will need to rework the enchanting system to go to 1.8. 

Didn't someone do a framework document for 1.8 a while ago?

[Jacob Sokora]

Not sure, but if the enchanting is the only thing that needs to be done I know matta and ribagi already did that so we should be able to update pretty easily and soon

[Andrew Jawa]

Yes, matt and rebagi have something that looks mostly okay, but it also rebalances exp production.

[Jacob Sokora]

Well if that's it can we make sure it's balanced and throw it online?  If all the plugins are ready civcraft could be back by tomorrow morning

[Andrew Jawa]

​I think his changes are okay, but need another admin opinion on it and an easy to process document is lacking. His current spreadsheet has a lot of information it. I'll bring it up now and see if we can at least get the ball rolling

[Arieh Kovler]

The last time I looked at them I was too dumb to understand them. 

[Andrew Jawa]

I'm working on an email to try and summarize it. It'll be in the other group sometime today.

[Jacob Sokora]

Ok also we need to talk obsidian. I've been holding off for the prophesized culling of the dev group but that's no longer an option. We need a way to generate obsidian. Without one there will never be another vault or bunker or anything. In optimal conditions you can mine a double chest of obsidian on one hour. That's assuming haste and efficiency five and never stopping and no delay between breaking and moving on to the next block. On top of that there are probably about 50dc of obsidian in the nether, which is a pretty good amount for a single sort of decent vault. That's 50+ hours of manual labor just for the obsidian and that's not even considering that it'll be harder to get xp for repairs and the time it'll take to move your beacons and move around. Plus there will be others mining.

"But teal," you say, "there's plenty of lava in the overworld!"

Yeah sure but now you have to factor in the finding pockets of lava, even more Xp for the digging and the danger of falling in lava because of lag. 

Not only will obsidian prices skyrocket but the way civcraft functions will drastically change. We NEED to reimplement obsidian generation

On Thursday, April 16, 2015, Andrew Jawa <dr.andr...@gmail.com> wrote:

[staygroovy57]

Given the sudden nature of this unforeseen event, and as long as there are proper backups of the server's most recent map in place I personally don't think that there's anything wrong with trying to patch Spigot with the warning to all concerned that there may be a rollback.

This would buy the devs a little more time to figure out what this 1.8 update really entails.

It just doesn't feel very realistic to implement a change to the entire enchantment system and rebalance all of the XP without first giving it a go on CivTest.

Given the recent experiences scrambling for much simpler fixes during the Nether Factories launch, if feels as if there will always be some incredibly major things overlooked, which could impact everyone far more than a couple of hours of play.

Is there something negative about trying to patch Spigot?

Without knowing the specifics, it feels as if this would give a bit more time to the devs to put together a coherent plan of action rather than being rushed into doing something which feels like it's half-baked and will inevitably create major issues IMHO.

[Jacob Sokora]

If we put the new co on civtest the main server will have to be down until it goes online. Basically it's garaunteed to be more complex so everyone will scramble to make xp and enchant a shit ton now and that's no good

[justin kilpatrick]

Enchanting is just a config, we can keep that under wraps until the actual 1.8 release, minimal testing is required for just config changes, as for the rest of the 1.8 stuff it deserves a lot more testing, but yes we might decide to push it through. 

Cant you modify your obsidian bots to work off of lava buckets and water buckets? I know lava source block duplication is not out of the question, seems to be the status quo would be returned in a week at most. 

[Jacob Sokora]

The problem with working off lava and water buckets is the collection would be obcenely difficult and expensive. Not to mention still extremely limited. Ideally we would find a way to implement obsidian generation in a way similar to how it is now. People have talked about using factories but one of the best things about obsidian bots is that they're incredibly complex to make efficiently

[justin kilpatrick]

I wonder if we could make the process much more complex, regardless I don't intend to provide anything right away.

[Rourke750]

Lots of creativity and volunteers appear when it directly affects players.  Wait for the market to start taking affect and players will be very quick to offer suggestions on what can be implemented and the development will be there to implement it.

[justin kilpatrick]

And in the mean time the actual development team will focus on the boring essential stuff. Roruke understands the administration now.

[Andrew Jawa]

Not having to rush is definitely preferred in both enchanting and obby mining. There are some things I need to check in with matta first to make sure I'm explaining this right. It might be a few days before I have an email ready.

[justin kilpatrick]

Thats not to mention concerns about plugin stability.

Actually let's try and get a 1.8 civtest out the door really quickly. It can be up while the server is down because it will already have the fix.

[anthonyb]

Dear Lord, I hope you guys seriously don't go into QA or Dev for a living.

Let me see if I understand what you're saying; because, I want so desperately to believe that I am missing something.

Your proposal is to introduce a patch/fix/revision that will drastically alter the availability of a key building element in the game; and then rely on the end user to be so inconvenienced that they have to throw out any possible suggestion. At which point, rourke will slowly hammer out something that resembles an implementation 3 months down the line..

Mind blown. 

This isn't just a product 'feature' you're tweaking. The balance of the citadel and gameplay itself relies on the predetermined availability of this block.

We had a discussion about this two months ago; there were plenty of suggestions available but none received traction because ttk felt he wanted to "see how it would affect gameplay".

Brb, recording an audio file to upload of the metal sound of me facepalming my head through a desk.

[Jacob Sokora]

I might look into how it was disabled and try to get a config option pushed into spigot to enable it as it is

[justin kilpatrick]

Vaults have been growing and growing since string factory obsidian gathering became a thing. Civcraft existed before this glitch and worked pretty well, in fact I sometimes look at current vaults and wonder if they are not significantly too cheap in part because of things like super low obisidan price.

These arguments go both ways.

[Rourke750]

So I'll have 1.8 stuff done either today or tomorrow.  That leaves xp stuff and testing.  

[justin kilpatrick]

We have the proposed 1.8 config. It needs cursory testing and documentation. But the plugins will be more work.

[anthonyb]

No, no they don't.

What your describing is a natural phenomenon observable in real life. It is simply humans pushing the bar higher in terms of what the limit is.

Take, for example, Tony Hawk's 900 in the 1999 X-games. At the time that was earth shattering! Nobody had ever done that and the bounds of skateboarding were expanded. Several years later many professionals were landing the 900. Why is this? Did the framework of physics change? Was there a drastic leap in skateboarding technology? No. The bar was simply set higher as to what was achievable. It continues to be inched up. In 2013 a 12 year old child landed a 1080. It's because 900 was no longer what you shoot for. 900 was already achievable.

The same has happened with vaults. When I started playing at the beginning of 2.0. A 20 layer was big shit. Then a 25. Then eventually a 35 layer. Then Titan came in and landed the 900 by implementing defensive structures.

What you are proposing is to change physics. You're comparing apples to freight trains.

[Rourke750]

They have an updated one or so matta says.

[Jacob Sokora]

Yes there was a time before obsidian generation but it's still pretty expensive in such large quantities and it shouldn't be the expensive part of vaults. The expensive part is the diamonds, iron, bastions, and the time it takes to build them not to mention the time it takes to design them

[Rourke750]

Is the redstone generation still there?

[Jacob Sokora]

Not sure

[Greg Boiczyk]

If it is its not good enough. Redstone is too rare to be used for obby

[programmerdan]

Coming in behind the scenes but putting my Project Lead hat on for a moment; 

Do we have a list of the plugins that are:

* 100% tested and ready for 1.8

* Compile against 1.8 but not fully tested

* Have not attempted to compile against 1.8 but no projected difficulties (and no testing)

* Fail to compile against 1.8, e.g. are unusable in their current state

Assuming we have that data, can we prioritize the plugins that fall into categories 2-4 based on urgency? I'd be happy to help out tonight if Civcraft is still down, banging out some code. My Dev VM instance is online now.

I'm reading into the thread here that a simple spigot patch is not being considered? Forgive me if it's already been addressed on the Administrative Dev Group, but why not?

Finally, there is mention that 1.8 plugins exist in many cases but in their current incarnation involve dramatic balance changes. This is inadvisable, considering the timeline we're facing to address the 0-day vulnerability. Although everyone would be pleased the server is up, you'll now have a modmail headache as every single thing that is altered comes crashing down on the modmail infrastructure; people will assume it's broken first, and intentionally changed second. If the change is intentional, you can be sure they will hate it and again, modmail volume will go through the roof. I'd strongly recommend approaching this from a simplest possible solution perspective, and leave re-balancing for when the team isn't already scrambling to get things back online.

Regardless, I'm ready and willing to help once I'm off work, and I'll keep monitoring this thread for hints of how I can do that, or point me in the right direction and I'll get started.

-Dan

[justin kilpatrick]

We have not abandoned the idea of a 1.8 patch. In fact looking at the code modified to fix the vulnerability its quit feasible if anyone wants to do it.

But we are really behind schedule on 1.8 and this is one of the few good ways to push it.

[Jacob Sokora]

Do we have the spigot 1.7.10 source to patch?

On Thursday, April 16, 2015, justin kilpatrick <kilpatri...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Greg Boiczyk]

The good news is that with the server down people will actually test 1.8 plugins if it gets the server up quicker

[Jacob Sokora]

Yeah it's almost as if we have no incentive to test otherwise!

[justin kilpatrick]

Do you have any ideas for that? Testing is just in a bad place.

Anyways thats why I want to get the 1.8 builds soon. For a civtest iteration.

[Daniel Boston]

Bump; any reaction to my request for information on overall mod progress/current status? Perhaps I'm just missing something, but at least within this thread and elsewhere the 1.8 migration process to date seems pretty disorganized.

[Jacob Sokora]

I think something like an ingame flair in their name would work or something like that. I know this has been discussed before and you had some reservations but I think it would get people to test

[justin kilpatrick]

Roruke has branches for everything. He needs to document progress on that more.

[Andrew Jawa]

We have an tester flair, need to change it so that it is permanent so people can change text without losing the flair.

We do have /r/civtesters, but it's time consuming to write out instructions for each test. I'd prefer if we edit the changelog script so that it scrapes github for "On civtest" and posts those in a seperate column, linking to each issue. Within the issue, it should be trivial to go "oh hey we just need someone to do this or that."

Could try keep in the spirit of civtesters and automatically pull a random person from the tester list and assign it to them.

Just pulling ideas out of a hat.

[Daniel Boston]

Quick repository review for evidence of 1.8 branches, only looking in CivCraft org repositories.

Ones with 1.8 branch:

* https://github.com/Civcraft/Citadel (significantly "back" against master, rebase might be indicated)

Ones without:

* https://github.com/Civcraft/MoreCraftableBlocks

* https://github.com/Civcraft/bottleO

* https://github.com/Civcraft/random-spawn (is this still used?)

* https://github.com/Civcraft/HitAdjust

* https://github.com/Civcraft/CivPets

* https://github.com/Civcraft/Combat-Tag

* https://github.com/Civcraft/ArthropodEgg

* https://github.com/Civcraft/RealisticBiomes

* https://github.com/Civcraft/ItemExchange

* https://github.com/Civcraft/Burricos

* https://github.com/Civcraft/CivChat

* https://github.com/Civcraft/DynCap

* https://github.com/Civcraft/AFK-Player-GC

* https://github.com/Civcraft/Bastion

* https://github.com/Civcraft/Mercury

* https://github.com/Civcraft/FactoryMod (there are many branches, but none appeared to be 1.8)

* https://github.com/Civcraft/MusterCull

* https://github.com/Civcraft/JukeAlert

* https://github.com/Civcraft/Humbug

* https://github.com/Civcraft/NameLayer (although it uses both craftbukkit 1.7.10 and spigot 1.8 in its pom atm)

* https://github.com/Civcraft/PrisonPearl

Am I looking in the wrong place?

-Dan

[justin kilpatrick]

he must not be uploading them then, bad practice, but I can't say I am surprised. 

[Rourke750]

... Or I haven't done them or I'm not at a position for uploading them or I've made them compatible cross versions...

[Jacob Sokora]

damn it roruke!

[Jacob Sokora]

:/

[justin kilpatrick]

bah we just need to keep track of which is which better. 

[Daniel Boston]

Hard for other people to contribute if that's the case. Wanted to highlight it, because to even an interested developer who has "done everything right" in terms of getting involved, it appears we are woefully unprepared for 1.8.

[Rourke750]

And or they don't need to be touched between versions or I delete the branch after its used.

[Rourke750]

In all fairness there was never a deadline for 1.8 and no one was helping...

[Andrew Jawa]

Well, people can't help if we don't have a place we can link them to with issues, milestones, etc.

We can create branches within the existing repos for 1.8 development.

[Daniel Boston]

Yeah, I know it might sound like I'm coming down hard on you (rourke), but I'm not -- really just looking for some honesty/transparency in terms of our preparedness for 1.8. Transitioning to 1.7.10 went... okay, but frankly suffered from what felt like the same scenario we're setting ourselves up for here; lack of comprehensive, centralized and fully public awareness of our preparedness for the transition, on a per-mod basis.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Rourke750 <rourk...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ribagi]

I'd finish/send over my section of the factories, Matta will also have to send his part in too.

Who knows that having interviews on almost every day of the week for 2 weeks takes a good bite out of your time?

[Rourke750]

For repos you can look at everything except NameLayer, citadel, pp, and humbug.  Make an issue for the repos where u need a 1.8 branch and I'll create it.

[justin kilpatrick]

so you have Namelayer/Citadel/PP/ and Humbug locally?

[Rourke750]

Yes.

[justin kilpatrick]

ah get those up when you can, whats your dev environment? is there any way we can make it easier for you to keep dev branches synced with github? 

[Rourke750]

I mean I did them at school on my laptop. Its Ubuntu and the github client I use isn't on Linux.

[justin kilpatrick]

why not just use git. 

[justin kilpatrick]

well the commands take a few minutes to pick up, but its just that, a few minutes. 

[Jacob Sokora]

or just copy them on a flash drive and put them on your desktop so you can use the github client

[Rourke750]

Or I can go home and upload them there.

[Daniel Boston]

From Pentom:

http://www.reddit.com/r/admincraft/comments/32t9si/hey_radmincraft_i_found_a_security_vulnerability/cqeqs7q

Might be a middle-approach if directly patching 1.7.10 is out of the question. I can certainly scout around for spigot sources unless folks have them; craftbukkit was the hard-to-find for 1.7.10 (at least from sources whose hashes I could verify...).

[Nick]

We have 1.7.10 sources. We are running a customized version of Spigot to handle the Obfuscator bug.

N

[justin kilpatrick]

is that fixed in 1.8 now?

[Nick]

I would hope so or a 1.8 compatible Orebufscator couldn't run.

N

[Daniel Boston]

Home, can code. What needs doing?

[Rourke750]

I'm not sure.  Namelayer, Citadel, PP, and humbug will be done by me.

[justin kilpatrick]

look into getting a build of the latest Spigot? Roruke probably already has it though, actually check for Oreobfuscator compatibility. 

[Daniel Boston]

I've got a build of the latest, my VM has latest BuildTools so I can generate whatever 1.8+ version we want to target.

I'm unfamiliar with the orefuscator issue; how does it express itself, for me to test?

[Nick]

Spigot 1.8 is easy. Just follow stuff to run their BuildTools.

http://www.spigotmc.org/threads/bukkit-craftbukkit-spigot-1-8-3.53745/

N

[Nick]

If the Orebfuscator issue is there, you won't be able to see anything when you log in because no chunks will load and the console will be scrolling exceptions.

N

[Daniel Boston]

Just leveraging the built-in Orebfuscator w/ spigot?

[justin kilpatrick]

nope, we used the dedicated plugin, the built in one does not support proximity obfuscation. 

[Jake Jungbluth]

This one I think 

http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/orebfuscator/

On Thursday, April 16, 2015, justin kilpatrick <kilpatri...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Daniel Boston]

Unfortunately, if ProximityHider is active, chunk loading appears to fail (no blocks sent to client).

To be sure I'm testing this correctly, what settings are in use currently?

[justin kilpatrick]

Proximity hider with a specific list of blocks and a range of 8 or so. Update ranges are much smaller. Whats the terminal output like?

[Daniel Boston]

No terminal errors reported. Are you using a custom logging level?

[justin kilpatrick]

Nope. Thats strange. We will have to play around with it tomorrow

[Nick]

Is Spigot's built-in Orebfuscator off? I don't know if that interferes.

N

[Daniel Boston]

Doing additional testing, my initial report was likely inaccurate. I'm going to keep investigating. Any more details you're willing to share about current config would be helpful. Can direct mail if inappropriate for larger dev group.

Nick: I've disabled it in config, and the plugin also actively disables it on load.

[Daniel Boston]

Alright, done some more testing. It works! Thanks for the config elements. The issue I am now having is -- it both works and doesn't. My earlier no-transmission was due to an incorrect config (init radius set too high, etc.) So far, it's only obfuscating diamond ore, emerald ore and chests, in spite of all other kinds of ore being listed. It may be a consequence of the default configuration file still using block IDs, which are theoretically being phased out. No errors, however, on the console. Will report more if something significant is found. Note I'm using 3.0.6 of Orebfuscator, no public build is available so I built directly against the latest in the repository.

[Daniel Boston]

(Sorry for spam).

Everything is fine. Just having to learn obfuscator as I go :). Added the block IDs to the correct list, and obfuscation is working. So -- no special code, ore obfuscator 3.0.6 is working just fine with spigot 1.8.3, both built fresh from source on an Ubuntu 14.04 VM.

Ok. What's next on the priority list?

[Arieh Kovler]

Orebfuscator on 1.8 also fixes an important hole in its implementation so an upgrade is good. 

[Rourke750]

Can someone look into disabling water temples?

[justin kilpatrick]

Do we really want to?

[Rourke750]

How do we want to disable ender guardians?  Just set up mustercull to kill all endergardians?

[justin kilpatrick]

Why do we need to?

[Rourke750]

They drop sponges.

[justin kilpatrick]

Ah. Why not move bastions to lore and then use a plugin to go through and replace them.

[Rourke750]

We can do that but what about all the sponges that are in people's inventories that aren't lore?

[justin kilpatrick]

We would make the plugin now. Bring the server up and convert existing inventories for a day or two.

[Rourke750]

Alright, is there a script for scanning all chests and such?

[Daniel Boston]

Isn't the issue that placed blocks lose their lore? Forgive my ignorance if that's been corrected, but currently lored sponges once placed, lose their lore when broken/picked up.

[Jacob Sokora]

Yeah we would just have to modify bastion so when one is broken it drops a sponge with lore instead of just a sponge

[staygroovy57]

> Ah. Why not move bastions to lore and then use a plugin to go through and replace them.

Just making sure you remember that when a bastion block is broken, the item name changes to 'sponge'.

So there are probably a fair number of places where the bastions currently in use have been moved around and therefore already named 'sponge', would this process still preserve them as bastions?

When we discussed the 1.8 update I remember ttk2 saying that it might be cool to have the water temples in ocean areas where the chunks have not been touched, I can certainly appreciate this as being able to stimulate a good bit of exploration.

As far as the new items that need to appear in-game, diorite, granite and andesite for sure. Prismarine, prismarine bricks, dark prismarine and sea lanterns as well.

But besides these there's a massive number of new items... slime blocks, iron trap doors, raw mutton, prismarine shards and crystals, fence gates, banners, wet sponge, etc...

Entities: rabbits, guardians, elder guardians, endermites, and so on. I think this belongs in another thread BTW.

[Daniel Boston]

> Just making sure you remember that when a bastion block is broken, the item name changes to 'sponge'.

Can confirm, every single bastion I've have placed has at this point been pulled up and replaced. They had no lore on most recent placement. (thank you bastion time bug, thank you folks who fixed it).

[justin kilpatrick]

Hmm would they really generate enough free bastions to be a problem? Now the water removal will ruin water vaults.

[Jacob Sokora]

It won't ruin water vaults because you'll still have to break the bastion to drain it. 

As for free bastions it won't be a problem because we can easily modify it to use lore we just need to convert existing sponge ITEMS to have lore. Then in the blockbreakevent we can have it check if the sponge is in the database and if it is have it drop with lore instead of just a normal sponge. EZ pz

[Jake Jungbluth]

What database 

[Jacob Sokora]

The bastion one

[justin kilpatrick]

that's what I was hoping we could do, if someone could make a version of humbug that will convert existing items I would appreciate it.