Roundtripping models in CIS/2

[Ajit]

I am making this post to find if someone has used round tripping using
CIS/2 where for example, you might export a design model, provide the
model to the detailer who in turn makes some changes, exports the
model out and sends it back to the engineer for review. Does the
process work smoothly or there are implementation issues around this
functionality to support migration across analysis-design-detailing.

Ajit Pardasani
Centre for Computer Assisted Construction Technologies
London, Ontario, Canada

[Ivan Jivkov]

Hi I recall that we did implement GUID's for that purpose in 2003. I
think that SDS/2 and Bentley Structural were int the process of
implementing round-tripping into their software. It was pretty similar
to what you are describing. I am not sure if the project was
completed.

Ivan

[dfitzpatrick]

I don't believe this has been completed to date. I've had some recent
discussions with Bentley about this but to my knowledge it has not
been advanced. The main reason for pursuing the global GUID was to
allow for interim CIS/2 files to be sent to a detailing software (not
necessarily for roundtripping). For example, a mill order CIS/2 file
could be sent then followed by a CD release sometime later. With the
unique GUIDs, the detailing software could track the changes. I think
the snag we/they ran into was the unique IDs in MicroStation were 64
bit numbers and the appropriate place in the CIS/2 file couldn't
handle a number that large (or something similar to that). I have a
meeting with them in a month or so and will pursue this again to see
if I can't get it scheduled for development. I think this would be a
tremendous step forward. Unless a company has the internal resources
to write their own CIS/2 exporter with unique IDs, I think the CIS/2
file is a one shot deal. All changes after that would have to be made
by hand.
Doug

> > London, Ontario, Canada- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Ivan Jivkov]

The intent of the 2003 project was to have bi-directional exchanges
periodically. with reports on revisions through "design history".
Chuck Eastman's group did all the process mapping for this exchange.

Can anyone comment on the 64 bit snag?

-Ivan

On Mar 30, 9:23 am, dfitzpatrick <dfitzpatr...@fegstructural.com>
wrote:

[Mark]

There is a great upcoming opportunity to talk about this with a room
full of software developers. The AISC Software Developers Workshop the
Tuesday before this years NASCC in Orlando. I will post the flyer.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Brian C]

Roundtripping between design and detailing software has to be a next
step in progression here - this needs to move past a "one-and-done"
stage.

Speaking specifically for my company, much of our detailing starts at
50% design-development stage, in a desgin-build or desing-assit
model. We absolutely need the GUID information transferred, and be
able to "update" our model without replacing it. Additionally, we are
constantly asked if we can bring our model back in to REVIT or other
forms, to show the "real" final stele locations and to UPDATE the
existing steel from the strucutral model without replacing it or
providing a linked/refernece model. This can only be done with GUID
transfer and acknowlegement between design and detailing softwares.

Unfortunatley, I've got a baby due first of May and will not be able
to be in Orlando this year becuase I would love to discuss this topic
further. Mark, give 'em hell for me!!

[Mark Holland]

Jay:

KC is just a short drive from Omaha. My travel schedule is very full for
the next few weeks. Is there a time in June that I could come to visit
and see what you are doing?

Mark V. Holland, P.E.
Chief Engineer

Paxton & Vierling Steel Co.
P.O. Box 1085
Omaha, NE 68101

Phone: 712-347-4260
Fax : 712-347-5358
Mobile: 402-290-6102
e-Mail: mhol...@pvsteel.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Ernst [mailto:jay....@hp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 4:54 PM
To: CIS/2 - CIMsteel Integration Standards
Cc: Mark Holland
Subject: Re: Roundtripping models in CIS/2

Black & Veatch is currently using "round-tripping" with its own in-
house 3D model coordinating software (Plant Vision). I lead the
software development of Plant Vision CIS/2 import and export
capabilities.

There are two distinct "Structural Analysis" use cases Plant Vision
supports:

(1) Plant Vision model exported to remote analysis application (e.g.
RISA or GT-STRUDL), then analyzed & members designed (sized), then
updated model imported back to originating applcation. Repeat as
necessary as model is refined - to coordinate with other disciplines.

(2) Model originates and managed in analysis application, where
structure is analyzed & members designed (sized). Export from
analysis model and import into Plant Vision as often as necessary to
update 3D coordination model.

In either case, the key is that the originating application (B&V's own
Plant Vision) must be able to "incrementally import" a CIS/2 model,
comparing the original state of the model with the imported model,
making updates to the original model based on what the differences
are.

As was mentioned earlier, participating import and export applications
should be DMC-compliant, meaning that data is managed with "globally
unique IDs" (GUIDs). An exporting application should tag newly
created with GUIDs as during export, and it must pass through GUIDs
that it's imported from other applications. Importing applications
can use GUIDs it reads from the CIS/2 file to match with data it has
previously exported. Importing applications must also maintain GUIDs
it reads so they can be passed along when the data is later exported.

In B&V Plant Vision case, the participating analysis applications do
not maintain the GUIDs Plant Vision exports, nor do they export GUIDs
themselves. As a workaround, when Plant Vision imports, it attempts
to use other attributes (like node, element, and member identifiers)
to match data for comparison purposes.

Brian C. - I understand your company has different CIS/2 transfer use
case ("Design to Detailing"), but I don't think it would be too
different that the #2 use case above, where you would import an
initial CIS/2 model, then want to periodically update/refresh it with
a more recent export from the design model source.

Mark H. - Wish I could make it to Orlando in May. B&V is doing some
great things with CIS/2 these days.

I made a presentation last June at the GT-STRUDL Users Group
conference that gave an overview. The PPT is available as:
http://www.gtstrudl.gatech.edu/gtstrudl_new/GTSTRUDL_Users_Group_Newslet
ter/Presentations/2009/Eidemiller_Ernst_Presentation.ppt

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[Jay Ernst]

[Brian C]

Jay, you've given me some ideas this morning...thanks!!

> conference that gave an overview.  The PPT is available as:http://www.gtstrudl.gatech.edu/gtstrudl_new/GTSTRUDL_Users_Group_News...