Proposal to purchase Raptor plastic nailgun system for CNC

[Brad Walsh]

This is a vote to purchase a Raptor nailgun and plastic nails for the CNC.

Standard metal nails can destroy the carbide bits on the CNC. The Raptor company has developed a nail that is plastic and fiberglass that has excellent holding force but can be easily cut with the cutters.

Unfortunately you have to use a specific nailgun so the total price will be around $550.

http://raptornails.com/

OMER B17P.763 nailgun     $314

Various nail lengths             $209

1/2",3/4",1",1-12",2-1/4"

Shipping and tax would get us to around $550.

I believe this nailgun can also do regular nails so it could be used for other projects.

Of course the nails are expensive (as box of 2350 nails is about $42 each) but we really shouldn't use too many. They would just be replaced under the warden budget over time.

If some drunken moneys have a nailgun fight they might get to buy a box though.

Thanks,

Brad

[Andrew]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 12:48:31 PM UTC-5, BradmanOH wrote:

Unfortunately you have to use a specific nailgun so the total price will be around $550.

I know we had a box floating around last night.  Have we confirmed that they cannot be used in a regular nailgun?  Obviously the OEM is going to tell you to use only genuine OEM parts with the OEM product.

[Dave B.]

I volunteer to attempt to nail Andrew to a piece of Coy's plywood with plastic nails and a regular nailgun.

:)

-D

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Hive13 Hackerspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cincihackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Brad Walsh]

True, I haven't tested it. Do we even have a 15 gauge nailgun?

There are a couple of website hits that talk about using other nailguns with various amounts of success.

I'd be happy to check that out. I think we can get some samples from Raptor, or just buy a box to start out with.

So I'll leave the vote up with the understanding that if we can use an existing nailgun we'll just purchase the nails.

Thanks,

Brad

[Brad Walsh]

Sounds like a plan!

Thanks for volunteering Andrew. 😳

Thanks,

Brad

[Timothy Gregg]

If we have another gun that will work we should use it, but if not I vote Yes. I vote Yes to the ammunition either way. =D

[Brad Walsh]

Did some more digging and Raptor is definitely charging a lot for the nailer.

Amazon has a top rated Bostitch 15 gauge angled nailer for ~$160. (Not sure of the angles on the nail strip)

 http://a.co/5NuFlPq

Looking at the Raptor (OMER) gun, the nails seem to be more in a straight line.

So I'm guessing that is one of the "special" things to get you to buy their gun.

If we go to 16gauge pins then the angle looks the same for the OMER and other brands.

 

Are 16gauge too small/thin?

We could test some of the 18gauge Brads in our existing 18g gun.

Thanks,

Brad

[Coy Paeltz]

I have this exact nail gun at the space right now.  It has only been used at the Hive to shoot a few nails for the spoil board.  You guys can play with it all you want.  If we buy one I will most likely send mine back or the Hive can just purchase mine.

--

[wi...@hive13.org]

https://raptornails.com/store/home/20-brads-pins.html#/type-b_18/package-box/length-3_4_b_18_080

Don't we already have an 18 gauge nailer? If we do, order a box right now. I'll front you the $16 for a test box. 

One of the first things I did see was the pressure on the gun had a huge impact (nuck) on the nail performance and reducing the pressure improved how often they broke on firing.

 

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 12:48:31 PM UTC-5, BradmanOH wrote:

[Andrew]

I've got a porter cable finish nailer at home I can bring in for testing.  Pretty sure it's straight line, I think 16 ga, but I want to double check.

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 1:14:14 PM UTC-5, Dave B. wrote:

I volunteer to attempt to nail Andrew to a piece of Coy's plywood with plastic nails and a regular nailgun.

:)

I insist on a clown costume, circus music, being affixed to a spinning wheel, and bulleyes of varying point values if I'm going to be treated in such a manner!  :)

[Andrew]

Oh, and to be clear I've got no problems with the more "expensive" solution of buying the OEM gun, since I think we'll save on ruined bits.  However, I want to make sure the significantly less expensive nail guns don't work as well.

[Coy Paeltz]

I have a few 18ga nails in my box we can try with our gun.  They didn't work very well in my gun at home (Milwaukee M18 cordless), maybe 1 out of 4 or 5 actually went in.  The rest of them broke before penetrating the wood.  Most CNC people that use the nails use the 15ga nails.

--

[wi...@hive13.org]

And now I know stuff. I thought we were rocking 18ga.

Looks like redhawk is the same but different, and about 20% cheaper. 

I'm all for getting a test batch and seeing if they work with stuff we have laying around. Like andrew I'm not against the fancy nailer thingy if that makes everything work,   but if we can just load these things in something we already have... 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cincihackerspa...@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew]

BTW, we can also probably rent some nail guns pretty cheap.  Schulhoff has a 18 ga brad nailer for $16 on their daily rate.  We can test a LOT of nail guns for the $300 difference in price.  OTOH, they should be pretty standard, so long as we check one of each type, we should be good.

[Andrew]

Found this RedHawk for $190, which is 60% of the cost of the Raptor Gun.  Is the Redhawk significantly inferior?

[Andrew]

Link to Redhawk gun:
https://store.shopbottools.com/products/red-hawk-nail-gun

[Brad Walsh]

OK so let's try the cheap(free) and easy things first.

If we could try some of Coy's 18g in our existing nailgun we could do an experiment for free. (thanks Coy)

Next, we could buy a box of 18g and do some more testing with our gun.

Next we could buy a box of 15g and test if someone has a straight feed 15g gun.

Last we could buy the recommended gun and the 15g nails.

I didn't want to do too much work with 18g if 15g is what we want.

I'd still like to leave the vote up so we can move if that turns out what we want to do.

Thanks,

Brad

[Coy Paeltz]

It's my understanding that some other guns will work with slightly less performance which many people have been ok with..  There are lots of forum threads about this if anyone cares to do the searching.  

I just purchased the recommended brand because my time was more valuable than to MAYBE find a cheaper solution. 

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Andrew <jandr...@gmail.com> wrote:

BTW, we can also probably rent some nail guns pretty cheap.  Schulhoff has a 18 ga brad nailer for $16 on their daily rate.  We can test a LOT of nail guns for the $300 difference in price.  OTOH, they should be pretty standard, so long as we check one of each type, we should be good.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Hive13 Hackerspace" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cincihackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 2:56:22 PM UTC-5, Coy Paeltz wrote:

It's my understanding that some other guns will work with slightly less performance which many people have been ok with..  There are lots of forum threads about this if anyone cares to do the searching.  

Not really seeing those threads.  Lots of just got this cool new nailer, and people asking how well it works.

It appears that tech shop was able to get a porter cable finish nailer to work with the 18 ga brads, which is not the same size as the one we're talking about here.  The 18 ga appears to run about $100 less than the 16 ga model.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Polymer-nails-for-CNC-workholding/?ALLSTEPS

[Brad Walsh]

It also looks like the 18g Brads (cool name) only go up to 1" long.

If we want to do up to 2-1/4" we will need to look into 15g.

The RedHawk gun looks interesting. The composition of the nails looks similar.

http://redhawkfasteners.com/media/pdf/sales_sheet/f_15_sales_sheet.pdf

Perhaps we could save some cash?

I sent them an inquiry.

Thanks,

Brad

[Coy Paeltz]

Looks like the Redhawk gun doesn't offer as many sizes as the gun you listed. I believe Omer has a cheaper gun too that is similarly limited to 1.5"

--

[Brad Walsh]

Yes the Raptor 17P.32 is the cheaper one (still $262) with a capacity of up to 1-1/4" compared to the RedHawk FN15S for $188.

My feeling is that the Raptor is the "nicer" one but the RedHawk is 1/2 the cost.

So is there a need/desire to be able to go up to 2-1/4" nails? That would steer to the Raptor.

Thanks,

Brad

[Timothy Gregg]

I believe it's nice to have the capability to do so if we ever wanted.  We could not get so many sizes of the nails and save around the same price differences on the guns, if we wanted to pinch pennies I would prefer it would be on the ammunition(as we could always get these individually or later) and not the gun(as once we get it we can't just upgrade 6 months later).

[Andrew]

Typical size for a board seldom goes much above 3/4".  This goes for both the plywood we've been running through the CNC, and general project boards from the big box stores (say if you bought some oak).  If you want to get really fancy you can get 1"-2" stuff from Frank Paxton, but that's getting pretty specialized.

So at 3/4", even a 1" nail is 1/4" into the spoil board.  If we need more capacity than that it seems like we should be thinking about another solution to hold down the piece. 

Slight digression, but Frank Howath has a video of him doing a vertical clamping on his CNC.  It basically allows him to do board edges and the like.  That would be the sort of situation where that extra 2 1/4" might be useful, but his solution allows for much much longer pieces.

I'm also thinking that Coy is correct about the 15 ga nailer.  I'm not seeing an commercially available nail guns at 15 ga that don't have an angle.  The Omar appears to be pretty unique in that regard.  OTOH I'm not seeing a downside to 18 ga, but I am seeing lots of upside.

[Andrew]

Wish I could remember to add the link.  Here's the video in question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UAAN5vNGys

[Coy Paeltz]

I know others have varying opinions on how they make decisions. I made mine because that was the size (gauge) gun that CNC Router Parts sells,  the size that the salesman said most CNC people use, and the size that people in the forums I visit had. I just didn't have the energy to try proving all those people wrong.

On Jan 18, 2017 4:40 PM, "Andrew" <jandr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wish I could remember to add the link.  Here's the video in question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UAAN5vNGys

--

[Brad Walsh]

This isn't about "proving all those people wrong". We are just looking around for the different options.

Can't do any harm to talk about it and see what's available.

We can't buy anything for two weeks anyway so there is no harm is discussion.

I'll put Coy down for the 15g Raptor gun. (noted in notebook)

Everyone else feel free to look around more and leave more notes in this thread.

Thanks,

Brad

[Elly Hall]

When I use the CNC almost all of my "boards" (solid wood) are 3/4" to 1.5". For me it would be very useful to have the ability to hold those down with a deeper capacity. But at the same time, I could also just use regular nails for the thicker ones, as I have been doing this far.

[Coy Paeltz]

I think you misunderstood my reply. I was only speaking to why I chose the gun that I did. I have no opinion at all in what we choose as a group. 

--

[John2pt0]

I agree with Elly that nails longer than 1" are very useful if one is using solid wood.

I'll also mention that, in my experience, having only 1/4" of a nail (well several nails) holding a 3/4" board down
tends to fail if one is using a 1/2" mill on the material.

So, again, if it's Raptor nails, I'd go for the 15ga. gun.

If the big gun is not going to be used much, I say screw it. 
Um, that is, use screws to hold down the project...

I'll put  down for the 15g Raptor gun. (noted in notebook)

[Andrew]

I have a 16 ga finish nail gun I can bring in if we want to test those size brads.  From what I can tell on the wiki, the hive has two 18 ga nailers. 

This guy seems to think that the 16/18 ga stuff will work in any gun, but the 15 ga stuff will not.  Might explain the Tech Shop's porter cable nailer working correctly.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?169998-Raptor-composite-brads&s=7b6efd4ec1479a60d59114c198745ed8&p=3967749#post3967749

Seems to be little risk to getting a box of the 16/18 ga stuff, and seeing what happens.

FWIW Coy I wasn't saying you were wrong, but rather expressing disappointment I couldn't find more information.  Seems like a very niche product, which is disappointing, since I like to read reviews from real users when I buy tools.  Just too easy for the "professionals" to take a nice kick back, and give the consumer a poor review.  While I know there's some review shenanigans going on on like Amazon, usually forumites aren't shrills.

[Coy Paeltz]

Andrew,

I think it's good others have chosen to take their time to research this.  I only gave my opinion on what drove my decision.  I guess the other thing that helped me decide more quickly was that I knew it would be nice to have to replace the spoil-board. I preferred that we not use the metal nails again.  I've ruined a few bits.  One on my very first time using it. 

--

[Brad Walsh]

So I'm getting the vibe that the longer nails would be an advantage. 

This steers us toward the big Raptor.

The smaller guns can do up to 1-1/4", if that meets our needs, it could save some cash. 

Very few choices are black and white. 

I personally like nice tools but I believe I need to be judicious with other people's money.

Please continue doing research and looking into options. I'd like to come to a decision before the vote in two weeks.

We could get some 1-1/4" nails and see if our gun can drive them and they can meet our needs. Minimal risk. 

Thanks,

Brad

--

Thanks, Brad

[Andrew]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 7:20:09 PM UTC-5, BradmanOH wrote:

So I'm getting the vibe that the longer nails would be an advantage. 

This steers us toward the big Raptor.

Or the 15 ga Red Hawk at $188 vs  $314.

https://store.shopbottools.com/products/red-hawk-nail-gun

[Brad Walsh]

Yes but that one only goes up to 1-1/2" long nails. (Which may be OK)

--

Thanks, Brad

[John2pt0]

One potential problem (maybe Coy has experience with this) is that
we want the spoil board to stay put through many uses, for which these nails are fine, but
we want to remove our project at the end of the run.

The website boasts that the nails "melt slightly upon insertion into the substrate... (creating) a strong mechanical bond between the fibers of the substrate and the fastener."

Does this mean chunks of project board are going to be left stuck to the spoil board?
Or that we need to chisel off the nail heads after removing the project waste?

Anyone know?

[Brad Walsh]

I'm sure Coy is more familiar with this, but it looks like a stiff tap in the plane of the spoilboard will shear off the nails. You will leave a bit of the nail in the spoilboard so it will theoretically fill up with nail pieces, but I bet that is way down the road. 

Interesting idea. 

--

Thanks, Brad

[Andrew]

 The instructible's link shows the guy hitting the side of the project board with a dead blow hammer to break the connection.

[John2pt0]

Instructables also says they work better on softer materials.

That suggests we'll need a list of woods & materials that require alternate fasteners.
(Hard maple? Aluminum? etc.)

And that we'll still need alternate fasteners, e.g., screws.

But it does sound like a nice way to save the mills much of the time.

[wi...@hive13.org]

From everything I have been reading, They have good bonding strength and decent vertical strength, but have a very high shear value.  Hence why it will hold pieces in place for CNC'ing but will pop right off with a hit to the side with a hammer. 

[Elly Hall]

Regarding different non-soft materials: huh.... I didn't even think about that! :) I'd love to test it out on my woods to help us experiment and decide what is on the no-go list. I primarily cut hard maple and walnut (both pretty dense/hard woods) and also poplar, which isn't so hard.

--

[Timothy Gregg]

I have some already scrap hard maple and walnut that we can test.

[Andrew]

I've got some pieces of oak I can donate to the cause.

[Elly Hall]

So do I!  Scrap party!!  (Every woodworker that I know of has this failing *cough* hoarding....)

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Timothy Gregg <timothyw...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have some already scrap hard maple and walnut that we can test.

[Andrew]

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 6:24:29 PM UTC-5, Elly wrote:

So do I!  Scrap party!!  (Every woodworker that I know of has this failing *cough* hoarding....)

I was pretty cured of it when I discovered I had lost not one, but two grill sided propane tanks under a heap of cheap bead board I had been holding onto because it was stained and sealed.  Now I'm pretty aggressive about pitching stuff.  For me if it's less than $50, and I can buy it again, it goes.  It's just too expensive to fill your space with junk.

[Kevin S]

Let me try and go through my pneumatic guns this weekend , I hook up nice spray gun regulators at the gun to really control airflow to the piston

--

[John2pt0]

Sorry, Andrew, I'm with Elly on this one!     ;p

John2pt0

[Andrew]

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 8:05:15 AM UTC-5, John2pt0 wrote:

Sorry, Andrew, I'm with Elly on this one!     ;p

So long as I don't have anybody anxiously hovering over the scrap heap when I do a purge and muttering "My Precious" I think we're good.  ;)

I think we've all seen various projects where a single piece of "worthless" scrap gets turned into something cool.  However in my case I wasn't able to get to large parts of the garage.  There was literally an ocean of little bits of cheap stained pine that were "too valuable" to throw out.  (I had rebuilt the entire front porch)  Like I couldn't open the door on one of the cabinets.  That's some pretty serious negative utility for you there for a lot of "free" wood.  The purge was very refreshing.

[John2pt0]

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 9:37:46 AM UTC-5, Andrew wrote:

The purge was very refreshing.

Very left coast!

[Timothy Gregg]

On the wiki for tonight's meeting, it looks like it is being voted on tonight as opposed to next Tuesday.  If so I'll submit a vote of a Yes.

https://wiki.hive13.org/view/January_24,_2017