bottle conditioning

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

I'm I right : If you have a cider with a density > 0,990, it means that your cider is nutrient depleted. The only way to bottle condition this cider is to add a small amount of yeast nutrient, in order to favour yeast multiplication and carbonation. The addition of sugar is useless, has it would be for the carbonation of a  > 0,990 beer for example.

Thanks!

Louis

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 7 mars 2016 23:46:22 UTC-5, luis.ga...@gmail.com a écrit :

I'm I right : If you have a cider with a density > 0,990, it means that your cider is nutrient depleted. The only way to bottle condition this cider is to add a small amount of yeast nutrient, in order to favour yeast multiplication and carbonation. The addition of sugar is useless, has it would be for the carbonation of a  > 0,990 beer for example.

No... Actually, I don't think it is possible to have a cider at 0.990 - unless your hydrometer is way off.

If you actually measure 0.990 in a dry cider, check that you get 1.000 in distilled water at the calibration temperature of your hydrometer. I bet you'll get something else.
Many ciders may be fully fermented and dry at a SG of 1.000, and even higher sometimes, in particular if a perry - the final dry SG depends on quite a few factors, but the most important is the ratio of unfermentable solids to the total dry matter.
In practice, the lowest a cider can get to is probably around 0.996 SG. If the cider has been chaptalised (i.e. sugar has been added), this lowers the final dry SG because the ratio of unfermentable sugar decreases (chaptalisation increases the total solids without increasing the unfermentables in the same proportion)

Hence in practice, if you wish to know if your cider still has fermentable sugar in it, take a sample (a 500 mL bottle for example), add yeast and nutrients, fit an air lock, and let it ferment at room temperature for a couple of weeks. If some fermentation happens and you end with a lower SG, you have your answer.

And for your other question, if the cider is nutrient depleted, adding half a million yeast cells per mL is enough to perform the carbonation even if there is no nutrients left. These cells will live long enough to perform the task even if they can't multiply because of lack of YAN.

You could also add a dosage of DAP instead of yeast (see my book page 274) - this way just a few cells may use the nutrient to multiply and perform the carbonation task - it takes a bit more time because you need to wait until cell multiplication occurs.
Claude

[Paul Ross]

Also you definately need some sugar for fermentation to happen.
I think you have it the wrong way round - if your cider is dry it probably still has nutrient left in it and just adding nutrient will do nothing either way.
Adding priming sugar will probably be enough to bottle condition especially if we are talking about this years pressing.
I doubt you have no nutrients if it has already fermented by now.

I would bottle up a gallon with priming sugar calculated on a dry cider, keep them at room temp for a few months and then try them. If they are good and consistent, you should be able to bottle the rest.

Cheers
Paul

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Thank you Claude! I actually forgot to take in account the dry matter. I was also thinking aple juice was 100% fermentable, but I now do remember it does contain some unfermentable sugars such has sorbitol.

Ross, my cider isn't dry, it is the opposite! My fermentation have been pretty slow actually (around 50 FSU before 1st racking, around 5 FSU befor 2nd racking). My carboy still have a density of around 1,020. I guess my juices were pretty nutrient depleted......

I will be a little more patient and wait to insure fermentation has finished before bottling. I was actually wondering what were the best options to bottle condition this type of cider. 

Is there a better option to bottle this cider? Or the only difference is time to achieve the result (a well condition cider bottle)? Both seem to require precision in measurements for such small volumes has 5 gal carboy...

Thank you very much for your replies!

Louis

[Paul Ross]

ahh sorry luis. 

I think both myself and claude  read your post as your cider's gravity as being around 0.990. you clearly wrote > 0.990. My mistake.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 8 mars 2016 10:19:35 UTC-5, luis.ga...@gmail.com a écrit :

Ross, my cider isn't dry, it is the opposite! My fermentation have been pretty slow actually (around 50 FSU before 1st racking, around 5 FSU befor 2nd racking). My carboy still have a density of around 1,020. I guess my juices were pretty nutrient depleted......

I will be a little more patient and wait to insure fermentation has finished before bottling. I was actually wondering what were the best options to bottle condition this type of cider. 

You are doing fine. For my part, my slow carboys are still at 1.040, and my faster ones are at 1.018 to 1.020... I just added a bit of DAP to the slowest ones to help so fermentation completes before 2 years...

For the faster ones, I expect to start bottling in April. I usually bottle at SG between 1.012 and 1.016 in order to obtain a finished cider about 4 points lower than that to insure carbonation. My target final SG will depend on acidity and tannins - the higher these are, the higher SG I want for balance.
Strategy I use depends on a few factors :
- cider is well clarified and FSU between 6 and 12 - bottle as is without any addition.
- cider is well clarified and FSU more than 12 - rack and wait until FSU becomes stabilised at lower value
- cider is well clarified and FSU lower than 6 - bottle with addition of micro-dosage of DAP (as per my book page 274)
- cider not clarified - either wait until naturally clarified of do fining treatment, then rack

Claude

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Good to know Claude! I will try to follow a similar method for my cider. 

What is the amount of time you wait between two SG measurement to insure the proper FSU for botling?

Also, what iis thw importance of clarification before botling? Is it juste for appearance or also for taste ou bottle conditioning? Will an uncleared cider clear in the bottle with time (leaving lees in the bottle) or will it stay uncleared?

Thanks for the reply!

Louis 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 8 mars 2016 23:00:10 UTC-5, luis.ga...@gmail.com a écrit :

What is the amount of time you wait between two SG measurement to insure the proper FSU for botling?

This depends a lot on the precision of your hydrometer reading...
What I do is to plot the evolution of SG with one per month (more or less) measurement of SG. Normally, FSU decreases slowly as time goes and I have a pretty good feeling for it. I guess experience plays here.
Now, since you have a beer brewing friend in Quebec City, you might live there - I live there too. If you want to pass and see, send an email off list...
 

Also, what iis thw importance of clarification before botling? Is it juste for appearance or also for taste ou bottle conditioning? Will an uncleared cider clear in the bottle with time (leaving lees in the bottle) or will it stay uncleared?

When well clarified prior to bottling, you have less sediments in the bottle.
Claude