German Apple Wine "apfelwein" , is this traditional ?

[t...@functionalmedia.com]

Cider workshop,

As a cider drinker here in the USA it can be hard to sort out which ciders are traditional, and which are not.

For example..

I found a wine shop online that had a decent collection of ciders so I boldly ordered some Spanish, some Normandy, and some German.

The Spanish, and the Normandy were close to what I expected and I really liked them.

The German selection was this..

2012 Weidmann & Groh - Speierling Apple Wine

It was really different from the other two, and I did not like it that much. I know that is not much of a description, I can open the remaining bottle to describe it. But it was 8.5% alcohol, and tasted like it was made from desert apples. Not much tannin, without intending to offend a whole reagion it seemed to lack complexity. It felt more like a wine than a cider. That is not a bad thing, just not what I expected.

The question is this.. is that brand and that bottle representative of German Apfelwein ? Or is there more variety in the German ciders that I have yet to discover ? 

If there are other ciders from Germany that might be available internationally please let me know.

Usually when I find a source for something new I tend to order a few bottles to sample. Should I be looking for some more bottles from Germany or is this Weidmann and Groh representative of the flavor they are looking for. 

Thanks everyone..

--

Tom

[Edu V Coto]

Hi Tom,

Weidmann & Groh arrived in USA just a couple of months ago, together with Freyeisen.

Weidmann & Groh is probably one of the best premium ciders in Germany. Small production, 100% apples and a really good balance of acidity and rest sugar. You are right, cider in germany ( frankfurt region) is like wine, and it's made in same way since centuries

You can look for Possmann as more representative, it would be the equivalent of Bulmers in UK.

Of course german cider it's not like british or french ciders as the apples used are quite different, more like in spain.

I often talk about 2 cider worlds in Europe.

First, the bitter-sweet tanic world from France and UK.

Second, the rest with Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Spain with more acidity.

Mayb you can find a work made in 1902 from the agriculture department of the USA called 'A study of cidermaking in France, Germany and England with comments and comparisons on American work', from William Bradford Alwood, it's not much different from the different ways to make cider and different tastes nowadays.

Regards,

Edu

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[Edu V Coto]

Spierling means Service tree. It´s a speciality from Frankfurt.

3% of the juice from this fruit is mixed with cider. The fruit it´s really astringent, not for eating. It clarify the cider really fast, the process is amazing.

Maybe you should try with another products from W&G which are milder for american palates. Please consider that many ciders that americans, french or british people would consider "dry"; for us (asturians, basques or germans) is medium-dry.

Regarding "desert apples" appreciation, I don´t thing you could eat a Trierer Weinapfel or Bittenfelder....just to much acidity (but also sugar).  Imy advice to make a distinction between acid / tanic ciders before tasting.

Regards,

Edu

 

2014-01-27 Edu V Coto <eduar...@gmail.com>

[cwrwhughes]

It is

Over the last ten years Cider products have increased sales in Germany
and several breweries produce a type of cider most of which uses Apple
Concentrate whilst the more traditional methods are used around Baden
Wurzenberg by a handful of producers

DH

On 2014-01-27 03:47, t...@functionalmedia.com wrote:
> Cider workshop,
>
> As a cider drinker here in the USA it can be hard to sort out which
> ciders are traditional, and which are not.
>
> For example..
>
> I found a wine shop online that had a decent collection of ciders so
> I
> boldly ordered some Spanish, some Normandy, and some German.
>
> The Spanish, and the Normandy were close to what I expected and I
> really liked them.
> The German selection was this..
>

> 2012 WEIDMANN & GROH - SPEIERLING APPLE WINE

[Nick Bradstock]

Thanks Edu – very helpful  to know more about cider in Germany.

I always understood that ‘Speierling’ was made with the addition of rowan berries to the apple pulp to add some ‘tannin’ – would this account for the character as described by Tom?

Best

Nick

[Nick Bradstock]

Only just got this message.....

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Edu V Coto
Sent: 27 January 2014 08:31
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] German Apple Wine "apfelwein" , is this traditional ?

 

Spierling means Service tree. It´s a speciality from Frankfurt.

[Dougal]

We have loads of young German backpackers try our ciders at the Farmers' Market.  We go one in a UK eastern counties style, which they identify with as being closest to their apfelwine.  Apparently, it is quite the rage around Frankfurt to have one's apfelwine with a mix of Coke!!!

[Edu V Coto]

In Frankfurt people drink Apfelwein alone or mixed sometimes with sparkling water or Sprite.

Apfelwein with coke has been made from 2 young people in cans "Bembel with care", like a marketing project and it´s almost imposible to find that drink in pubs or restaurants.

2014-01-27 Dougal <baile...@xtra.co.nz>

We have loads of young German backpackers try our ciders at the Farmers' Market.  We go one in a UK eastern counties style, which they identify with as being closest to their apfelwine.  Apparently, it is quite the rage around Frankfurt to have one's apfelwine with a mix of Coke!!!

--

[Edu V Coto]

The principal cider region in Germany is Frankfurt in and around the city.

Possmann and  Rapps are the biggest producers, with millions of liters. And yes, they use concentrate.

But there are many craft cider makers in the area, like Andreas Schneider, Weidmann & Groh, Nöll, Jörg Stier,...

I would say 95% of cidermakers in Germany works just with apple juice pressed.

The other regions in germany have really small productions, cannot be reasonably compared with Frankfurt.

2014-01-27 cwrwhughes <cwrwh...@supanet.com>

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[Edu V Coto]

Some articles about cider in Germany:

http://www.hardciderinternational.com/?p=2110

http://www.lasidra.as/descargues/Panker_-_March_2011.pdf

2014-01-27 Edu V Coto <eduar...@gmail.com>

The principal cider region in Germany is Frankfurt in and around the city.

[David Llewellyn]

I met Herr Possman recently at an applewine gathering in Germany (now you wouldn’t be likely to meet Mr. Magner, Mr Bulmer or Mr Blackthorn, would you?!!!), and he gave me a few sample bottles. He was very castigating of the British/Irish industrial type ciders. My understanding is that although Possman is a huge producer, they are not ‘industrial’ to the extent of the Magners etc. I mean from the point of view of minimum apple content, and by apple content I would also mean reconstituted apple juice concentrate in this case. As opposed to fermented sugar syrup ‘glucose wine’ that we sometimes refer to here. I have always wondered about this assumption, but am I correct Edu?

 

David Llewellyn

Tel: + 353 87 2843879

www.llewellynsorchard.ie

(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

---

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Edu V Coto
Sent: 27 January 2014 09:59
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] German Apple Wine "apfelwein" , is this traditional ?

 

Some articles about cider in Germany:

http://www.hardciderinternational.com/?p=2110

http://www.lasidra.as/descargues/Panker_-_March_2011.pdf

 

 

2014-01-27 cwrwhughes <cwrwh...@supanet.com>

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[Peter Ellis]

On 27/01/2014 10:40, Dougal wrote:
> Apparently, it is quite the rage around Frankfurt to have one's
> apfelwine with a mix of Coke!!!

If you think that is bad, around here the kids drink red wine with
either coke or the local equivalent of Tizer !

Cheers!

--
Peter Ellis

Porec Sales Office
Croatia Property Services

Selling in the new Tuscany!

Tel +385 (0) 92 247 5879
+385 (0) 91 400 3784

peter...@croatiapropertyservices.com
in...@croatiapropertyservices.com

http://www.croatiapropertyservices.com
http://croatiaproperty.proboards.com

[Edu V Coto]

You are correct David.

2014-01-27 David Llewellyn <da...@llewellynsorchard.ie>

[Konstantin Kalveram]

Hi Group,
I live in Frankfurt/Germany and together with a compagnon I run a small Apfelwein-Shop in the "Apfelwein-part" of the town, in Sachsenhausen, where the most Apfelwein bars are located. Apart from that we produce a small amount of apfelwein on our own, up to 4.000 litres per year. 
We sell bottled Apfelwein of several regional producers, everybody who visits our shop (Apfelweinkontor) can see the diversity of the local apfelwein production; hessian apfelwein makers produce all sorts of apfelwein: single variety, assortments of different varieties, dry ones, adstringend ones, sparkling apfelwein, apfelwein with natural residual sugar, "rooted to the soil"-apfelwein and more elaborated apfelwein ... alot more. Friend Edu named a few of the important producers. Funnily enough: even hessians or Frankfurt inhabitants are astonished by the diversity.

Of course we sell different Speierling-Apfelweins as well, Speierling is the fruit of the service tree, it is not the same as the rowan berry, but they are related. I know only one producer who uses rowan berry, Jörg Stier. We have Apfelwein makers in hessen that use apple concentrate, but I guess they are 4 producers in our region at the most. The rest, round about 50 businesses in/around frankfurt, - smaller ones, bigger ones - strictly produce craft apfelwein, they only use freshly pressed juice from mostly local apples. Of course there are combinations with cola or lemonade, but they are definitely not representative for hessian apfelwein.

I am excited about that more and more people from all over the world become interested in (hessian) apfelwein. Methinks that it should be an exciting experience for every cider enthused person to come here and taste. If anybody of you would like to visit frankfurt and some of our local apfelwein makers I would love to help as guide (and hope that edu will be on board as well).

regards

konstantin

2014-01-27 David Llewellyn <da...@llewellynsorchard.ie>

[Tim in Dorset]

Would that be Sorbus torminalis or Sorbus domestica?

Tim in Dorset

[Konstantin Kalveram]

Speierling is Sorbus domestica

Sorbus torminalis is called Elsbeere in german

2014-01-27 Tim in Dorset <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com>

Would that be Sorbus torminalis or Sorbus domestica?

Tim in Dorset

--

[Thomas Fehige]

That book is availale online at archive.org . Thanks for the tip!

Cheers -- Thomas

[Tim]

Would that be Sorbus torminalis or Sorbus domestica?

Tim in Dorset

 

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Edu V Coto
Sent: 27 January 2014 08:31
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] German Apple Wine "apfelwein" , is this traditional ?

 

Spierling means Service tree. It´s a speciality from Frankfurt.

[Tim]

Thank you, I once worked on a tree nursery where we grew thousands of Wild Service.

 

Tim in Dorset

 

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Konstantin Kalveram

Sent: 27 January 2014 12:38
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[HEW]

Konstatin,

Would you be willing to give some recommendations of the best Apfelweins in Frankfurt? I visited earlier this month and stayed at Hotel Am Berg, but many locations were closed (it was New Year's Day). I only really was able to try the Possman. I like it, but I felt that I was not getting the essential experience. I am from the US in an orchard setting and would like to try growing some Sorbus Domestica. I have heard that it can be grafted onto Pyrus for dwarfing. 

Where can one go to get the Apfelwein experience? The ones Edu mentioned: Andreas Schneider, Weidmann & Groh, Nöll, Jörg Stier, can these be obtained in the US? Probably not. Are there others you can recommend?

[kalveram]

Hew, Edu´s recommendations are more than valid, he gave you the names of some very interesting apfelwein makers in frankfurt and the close surroundings. 

If you have the chance to visit the wider periphery, you could visit jürgen Krenzer (famous for apple sherry and apfelwein), willi arnold´s hainmühle, a producer of wonderful acidic and adstringend apfelwein.   

I would add Jürgen Schuch, who makes several different apfelweins and runs a restaurant in Frankfurt. Schuchs Restaurant is the name. You could also visit the more simple locations, the authentic apfelwein pubs of Frankfurt, "Buchwald", "Apfelwein Frank", "Schreiber Heyne". And I would add "Zur Buchscheer" in Frankfurt, home made very traditional apfelwein, often delicate, always worth a try. You could also visit "Zu den 3 Steubern", run by an 80 year old apfelwein maker, I would dare to say this on is the most traditional apfelwein pub in Frankfurt. Also "Mainlust" in Frankfurt is a good place to get into contact with local apfelwein culture. 

 

You can get Weidmann & Groh in the US and also Freyeisen, typical german Apfelwein. I think you can get both of them in New York. 

regards

Konstantin

[t...@functionalmedia.com]

On Monday, January 27, 2014 3:05:10 PM UTC-5, HEW wrote:

Konstatin,

Would you be willing to give some recommendations of the best Apfelweins in Frankfurt? I visited earlier this month and stayed at Hotel Am Berg, but many locations were closed (it was New Year's Day). I only really was able to try the Possman. I like it, but I felt that I was not getting the essential experience. I am from the US in an orchard setting and would like to try growing some Sorbus Domestica. I have heard that it can be grafted onto Pyrus for dwarfing. 

Where can one go to get the Apfelwein experience? The ones Edu mentioned: Andreas Schneider, Weidmann & Groh, Nöll, Jörg Stier, can these be obtained in the US? Probably not. Are there others you can recommend?

I was able to purchase the Weidman & Groh in the USA. Along with an Asturian and a nice Normandy cider.

I am not sure of the rules of this group , so in order to be cautious I will not mention the vendor, but an internet search should help you find the wineshop in NYC that ships what seems to be a changing inventory of some interesting imported ciders.

As for the discussion of the Apfelwein, I did not mean to imply that it was not "good" it is certainly different than the others I have had, and I have saved remaining  bottle for another occasion.

Nice to know what the speierling means.

Thanks so much everyone.

If I only knew the traditional German words to speak to celebrate the joy of a german cider.

--
Tom





 

[Thomas Fehige]

Am Dienstag, 28. Januar 2014 02:05:27 UTC+1 schrieb t...@functionalmedia.com:

If I only knew the traditional German words to speak to celebrate the joy of a german cider.

I'm not from one of the German-speaking cider areas, and there's a lot of different dialects around, but if you're looking for an equivalent to "cheers", "your health", "skål!" or similar, there are a few exclamations that are understood by all German speakers:

"Prost!" or "Prosit!" (from Latin "prosit" = "may it be of use") is the most common one today.

Also quite common, if a bit more formal (at least in my part of the country):
"Zum Wohl!" ("To health!")
"Auf dein Wohl!"  ("To your health!", said to one person in a first-name-relationship)
"Auf euer Wohl!"  ("To your health!", said to more than one person in a first-name-relationship)
"Auf Ihr Wohl!"  ("To your health!", said to one or more persons in a last-name-relationship)

Another one:
"Wohl bekomm's!" -- Translates literally if not elegantly as "May it agree well with you!"

Or, definitely more informal:
"Hoch die Tassen!" -- "cups up!"

The English Wikipedia has an astounding collection on international customs of saying "cheers mate".

Cheers -- Thomas

[HEW]

Konstantin,

Thank you for the leads of good Ebbelwoi and Speierling in the Frankfurt area. If only I had made contact with you a month or two earlier as it may be a year or two before I get back to Frankfurt. I have family in Heidelberg and occasionally go to visit them. It is good to know that there is perhaps a more authentic way to experience the culture than just riding the Ebbelwoi express and drinking Possman, though these are good fun too.

I also look forward to going to the Apfelweinkontor next time I am around. Perhaps I can meet you then.

Hans Edwin

[HEW]

Tom,

Can you please tell us which wine shop you obtained the ciders and the Apfelwein from?

Thank you.

Edwin

[eduar...@gmail.com]

Rowan Imports.

Gesendet mit BlackBerry® Webmail von Telekom Deutschland

---

From: HEW <hewin...@gmail.com>

Sender: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 12:40:17 -0800 (PST)

To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: German Apple Wine "apfelwein" , is this traditional ?

[t...@functionalmedia.com]

This website has the Speierling Apple Wine

https://www.sipfinewine.com/wines/2012-Weidmann-and-Groh-Speierling-Apple-Wine-w9545357cw

They also get some ciders .. different each time I check. 

https://www.sipfinewine.com/websearch_results.html?kw=cider

--

Tom

[dale....@cydermarket.com]

Another option for tracking the importers and availability of German, British, French and other ciders imported to the USA is through our website https://cydermarket.com/Imported_into_USA.html  

Enjoy, Dale

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: German Apple Wine "apfelwein" , is this
traditional ?

[steve selin]

Edu, do you know the scientific name of the service / spierling fruit?

[Andrew Lea]

On 17/02/2014 04:43, steve selin wrote:
> Edu, do you know the scientific name of the service / spierling fruit?
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbus_domestica



--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[David Llewellyn]

Andrew, I just read that Wikipedia link. Do you happen to know whether any
of the trees in that 'population near Bristol' or any other specimens in
England ripen their fruit regularly, or even occasionally? I suppose if they
are propagating themselves naturally their fruits ripen sufficiently to have
viable seeds, but I wonder do trees in the UK actually produce usable fruit
as in Germany.

The tree itself is very beautiful - its foliage and form, and when it is
laden with those magnificent red/orange/yellow coloured fruits, as in the
Wikipedia photo. They are quite large - 25-35mm diameter.

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: 17 February 2014 08:43
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] German Apple Wine "apfelwein" , is this
traditional ?

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[Andrew Lea]

On 17/02/2014 09:19, David Llewellyn wrote:
> Andrew, I just read that Wikipedia link. Do you happen to know whether any
> of the trees in that 'population near Bristol' or any other specimens in
> England ripen their fruit regularly, or even occasionally? I suppose if they
> are propagating themselves naturally their fruits ripen sufficiently to have
> viable seeds, but I wonder do trees in the UK actually produce usable fruit
> as in Germany.

My understanding of the trees in the Avon Gorge / Horseshoe Bend is that
they are just clinging to the limestone cliffs. The trees are small and
stunted and although presumably they do fruit I think it might not be
'usable'. Also they are virtually inaccessible which is why they
remained undetected I think for so long despite the fact that the Gorge
has been 'botanised' and other Sorbus spp (eg Bristol Whitebeam) known
there for hundreds of years. But if you plant it as a specimen tree here
in good soil it does fine. Alan Mitchell's book records one of 22 x 3 m
in Kensington Gardens in London. Can't tell you its fruiting propensity
though. The related Sorbus torminalis (wild service) fruits very well
here in the south of England, and S. aucuparia (rowan) and the S. aria
group (whitebeams) fruit well even in Scotland.

Andrew

[Theresa George]

Steve - are you in Ithaca? I am.

Theresa George

On Feb 16, 2014, at 11:43 PM, steve selin <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Edu, do you know the scientific name of the service / spierling fruit?
>