How to naturally carbonate in bottles

[Zachary Taylor]

Hi -

I want to create a petillant (2 vol CO2) dry cider (FG 1.002), stored in Grolsch bottles. 

For those who bottle their dry cider, how are you getting a nice petillant carbonation? I'd like it to be stable and something I can store in the fridge until consumption.

• Are you killing off all the yeast/LAB with sorbates/sulfites prior to bottling?
• Are you adding some priming sugar and then leaving at room temp for a while to develop carbonation, then cooling?
• Are you pasteurizing the bottles in hot water after carbonating and before storing? Is that usually necessary?

I'm just at the end of fermentation and this is my first try at bottling.

Thanks!

[jitd...@aol.com]

Zachary!
I ferment (ambient yeasts & other infections) to about 1.005 - pretty dry - then I bottle (in April this year) adding half to a teaspoon of white granulated sugar to a champagne type bottle, or about half a teaspoon of sugar to a 500 ml bottle. I keep it reasonably cool for at least a month on the concrete floor of an abandoned pig sty thence to the door of the fridge up to a week before consumption. It doesn't leap out of the bottle at me but has a pleasant fizz, the head rapidly dissipating. My cider is dry, and tends to be sharp because it is overwhelmingly derived from dessert & cooking apples, my cider trees not yet mature. I find the carbonation + the magic of wild fermentation make what would otherwise be a very sharp flat dry cider quite palatable. It pours clear until the very last knockings, but that is your invaluable vitamin B1 ration.
With frequent and diligent sampling I have come to prefer this cider to any of the "big brand" offerings, and to most of the "craft" ciders commercially available which are now too sweet for my taste. Now I am looking forward to getting some real tannins in there!
Unfortunately I am bound to say that were I possessed of a large quantity of Grolsch bottles I might be tempted to start brewing beer again ...…. after well over 40 years. You know the Germans have something with their "Reinheitsgebot", the simplicity of the thing, and reliance on provenance of materials has a lot to be said for it. (yes I know I add sugar so am guilty but it ferments out and it doesn't affect the taste - if I were really diligent I could bottle up at a higher SG but that would involve opening up the fermenting vat and dangling in a turkey baster, dropping in dandruff, and no doubt encouraging "entrainment" of air).
As an aside my son took his mother & I to an expensive restaurant attached to an art gallery in Somerset just after Xmas. I ordered fish, and a bottle of dry cider to ease it down. The bottle came from an eminent craft source but though described as dry was far too sweet for my developed taste and the alcohol content was about 5.5%. Well at that strength I suspect it to have been adulterated with water or at best unfermented juice.
Half a teaspoon of sugar in the bottle before you fill it should be OK. Store it where if it explodes it won't injure your dog, wife, or other precious livestock …. shouldn't be a problem but with second hand glass you never know what undetectable flaws may have developed over years of use especially in a flip-top where the closing mechanism slams back against the neck.
JD

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[Richard Swales]

Hello Zachary, fellow beginner here.

My own approach recently has been to add, to each 0.5l bottle, about 25 ml of supermarket apple juice which is known to have 10g/100ml of sugar in it, which works out to 2.5g of sugar per bottle or 5g/litre, resulting in about 2.5g/l of C02 or 1.3 volumes of CO2. I suspect supermarket juice is not popular on this list but I don't see it as a worse evil than using supermarket sugar for priming and it should interfere less with the calculated ABV. I'm interested to hear what others say. I don't sulfite it and from what I've read I think that would interfere with the natural carbonation (though is not guaranteed to stop it either). I don't pasteurise the bottles but I am bottling a lot earlier than most people too.

Andrew Lea's carbonation table suggests you want 3.9g/l of CO2, so you should be looking to add about double that weight in fermentable sugar in some form. The other factors to consider are whether the cider already contains some CO2 from fermentation and whether MLF will add any.

Grolsch style bottles are good for trying new things with carbonation this as my second ever batch was overcarbonated (it was before I had a hydrometer so I possibly bottled it before initial fermentation was complete) and I was able to keep opening and closing them to release pressure, particularly before serving them to guests (with the ones for myself, I just opened them facing downwards into a jug) whereas the batch would have been much less usable if it had been under crown caps. This is also the reason I aimed lower on the carbonation for the subsequent batches.

As a new poster by way of introduction I have started doing this as a hobby in my kitchen for interest and also because of the shortage of good cider here in Slovakia - we basically have a well known "glucose wine" brand brewed under license and some similar local ones and that's more or less it and I miss good cider being originally from England. I've read Claude's book and am about to order Andrew's book. I'm so far on my fifth 25 litre batch and while I've got a lot to learn, the results are better than what's available to buy so I'm motivated to keep going.

I have a question of my own. The supermarket juice I'm using for priming has 11g of carbohydrates, of which 10g is sugars. What is the other 1g? Particularly, is it stuff that the yeast (or something else) will break down into sugars and then ferment or should it be treated as unfermentables?

Richard Swales

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[jitd...@aol.com]

Cellulose is a carbohydrate - there must be apple cell wall in the juice, could this be the missing gram? I don't know how it breaks down in a fermenting environment.
JD

[Andrew Lea]

Two points:

1. Zachary doesn’t actually want a dry cider though he says he does. A dry cider is around SG 0.998, but he wants a cider at SG 1.002. So he wants to retain 4 SG points of unfermented sugar for sweetness. This is hard to do without adding extra sugar and then pasteurising once the required carbonation has been reached. It may be possible to get the bottles into a fridge and keep them there to inhibit further fermentation but that can’t be guaranteed. A simpler way is to use a non fermentable sweetener like sucralose or xylitol. An alternative (but probably too late now) is repeat racking to reduce nutrient levels to get the cider to “stick”. See http://www.cider.org.uk/part4.htm  for some discussion of options. 

2. The 1 g/ 100ml of non sugar carbohydrate will be a mixture of pectin, soluble starch, sorbitol and other miscellaneous (poly)saccharides. Treat it as non fermentable.  But also be aware that the supermarket composition label will probably be fairly generic or ‘typical’ and not exact for that particular juice sample. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Matthew Moser Miller]

Zachary-- In my role as a home cidermaker, I always use this site to calculate additions: https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

For petillant, I usually aim slightly higher than what you mentioned: 2.0-2.3 atm., for standard 12oz beer bottles. As a substantial caution: grolsh bottles sealed only with the flip top (as opposed to capped) aren't airtight, and aren't a great long-term option. You will almost certainly get air ingress, and likely oxidation. I'd strongly encourage using proper crimping caps, and oxygen scrubbing caps if you can find them. A decent brewing supply store should have them. If it's a small batch you'll drink quite quickly, then this is all less of an issue.

Don't use sorbate; it'll prevent refermentation, so you won't have any carbonation at all. The sulfite is useful to prevent  LAB and oxidation post-fermentation, but it won't kill any wild/stray yeasts. You'll want to leave them at a moderate temperature to carbonate; maybe mid-60sF? You shouldn't even need to store them in the fridge once they're carbed, as long as they're dry and you can store them at cellar-ish temperatures.

I can't see why anyone would bother with pasteurization if the cider's dry; maybe to try to control for other microbes? But even then, you've got limited nutrients/sugars (assuming it went in to the bottle dry), so there shouldn't be that much room for the microbes to work, especially if you had a decently robust yeast population established. For me, the trouble of pasteurizing dry (and the effect the heat would have on the flavor) far outweighed the risk, so I never did it.

You mention stability. There was a post recently where someone raised a similar point, to which I asked: what do you mean by "stability"? Are you concerned about changing flavor, or carbonation level? Do your maths right, and the carb level should be consistent, barring changes in altitude. Changes in flavor will likely occur as any cider (like any beer or wine, as well) ages; from a flavor standpoint, it'll never be perfectly stable.

For Zachary and JD-- I'd also say that 1.002 and 1.005 aren't fermented to dryness, for cider. I've usually had mine go down to 1.000 or lower (often to .998), and I think you're both running a risk of additional sugar/your ferments aren't done. Zachary, the .004 difference amounts to almost half a percent of alcohol, and the difference between petillant and getting into the US's "sparkling wine" pressures (which is just about tax, and so doesn't matter; but I wouldn't want those sorts of pressures in something less than a champagne bottle). JD, I don't know how you haven't your bottled exploding regularly, if that gravity is right and indicates residual sugar. The exception: maybe you both have substantial other components messing up your density readings? Sorbitol is an unfermentable that pushes up gravity. Do either of your apples routinely have watercore?

Richard-- I think the advantage of using sugar as your source of priming is far more reliably calculated, and it means you add only the sugar without additional nutrients/ avoid the variability of store juice, which you have to measure every time, then do more calculations. Sugar is sugar; factor in temp/pressure/target atm, dissolve in some of the cider, and you're good to go.

As for the sulfites, it definitely won't stop the refermentation. And as I recall, Claude has done experiments on this and found he got more sparkle when he sulfited (I think he guessed because it may have knocked out the LAB and made sure only the yeasts were fermenting?).

Cheers,

Matt Moser Miller

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[Zachary Taylor]

Thank you all for the great replies. This is my 3rd batch ever, and so far, it tastes the best. Perhaps because I was able to get the juice from the leftovers at Albemarle CiderWorks here in Charlottesville, VA which has some great apples!

I added LAB for MLF for the last month and my FG is 1.000, pH 3.9. I added some crushed Campden tablets, let sit half a day at 56 degrees. (I fermented for 3 months total at between 56-58 degrees F).

Yesterday, I added 1.5g of priming sugar (dextrose) to every 1 L of cider and bottled in one-litre bottles. This amount of dextrose was on the low end from what Claude recommends in the book I think - he recommends about 4-8.5 g/L priming sugar for a pettillant, so I may not make it there. But I have just a little sugar left in the cider at 1.000, so this is still on the low side of priming for petillant cider, but I was concerned about exploding bottles.

Going to store them in a cool, dark place for a few weeks or so, and then see what I've got. Thanks again!

[Albert Johnson]

Matt,

I've been told that pasteurizing dry cider is a good move because it helps prevent a yeast film growing in the bottle. Is there a better way?

Thanks

Albert

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[Bill Carwile]

Zachary,

I am a first time cider maker also in the central Virginia area (about an hour south of Albemarle Cider Works).  I used what I had from my own tree which was 100% Black Twig from an old standard tree.  All of my recently planted trees are not yet bearing.

My sp. gr. was 1.050, pH 3.4 and acid 5.81 g/l.   The juice had been frozen and showed some signs of a little natural foaming/fermentation between thawing and  when I moved it to the fermentation bucket and added the sulfite at 1/2 dose based on the pH.  

My intention was to allow a partial natural fermentation but like most first time cider makers I got impatient and added Lalvin ICV-D47 yeast 8 days after adding the 1/2 dose of sulfite. 

After adding the D47, my juice fermented much more rapidly than I had hoped.   In 25 days it went to 1.000 sp gr. at a temperature of 55-60 F.

I then racked it off into a clean carboy and it is currently stored at about 45 F while I wait for it to clear.  I tasted the juice at racking and it was somewhat sour and one dimensional.    I am hoping for improvement in the taste as it ages.

I am very familiar with Albemarle Cider Works and thinking of getting some juice from them next year to blend with my juice.  

I am curious as to whether you know what apple varieties were in the juice that you got from them and also curious as to the yeast that you used if you added a commercial yeast. 

Thanks,

Bill

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From: Zachary Taylor <ztayl...@gmail.com>
To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 7:50 PM
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: How to naturally carbonate in bottles

[Zachary Taylor]

Hi Bill,

I believe the apples were mostly Stayman and Goldrush from Albemarle Cider Works, but that's just what they happened to have for me at the time.

I used Wyeast 4766 "smack pack" liquid yeast here: https://www.midwestsupplies.com/cider-yeast-wyeast-4766

After 11 weeks I added the Wyeast Malo-Lactic Cultures for another 4 weeks here: https://www.midwestsupplies.com/malo-lactic-blend-wyeast-4007

With that pH of 3.4 and fermenting so quickly, it's not enough time for those acids to mellow out. I'm surprised it fermented so quickly at 55-60 degrees - I wonder if it was actually warmer than that. I use the BrewJacket system and it works beautifully to regulate the temperature for me. It's expensive but lets me control the temperature very evenly.

You might benefit from letting it go into MLF by adding LAB which tends to smoothe out the acids.

Zachary

[Bill Carwile]

Zach,

Stayman and Goldrush would probably be a good combination.     Like most people, I like cider that allows the apple flavor and aroma to come through.    I like Albemarle's Harrison and Hewes crab ciders but both are a little too carbonated for my taste.

I have both Harrison and Hewes crab planted on MM111 rootstock.    Oldest trees are  5 years old but they have not yet fruited.  hoping from some fruit this year but if so probably not enough to do much with.  About 12 trees total but all are still young trees from 6 to 2 years old..

The very fast fermentation is not good and surprised me at the temps that I had.   I had an accurate thermometer next to the plastic fermentation bucket that I used so I am pretty confident of the temperatures and temperatures of the juice were checked when I interveined.   

The juice is in a glass carboy now with temps mostly 45-55 range and I'm seeing very small bubbles so there is still some fermenting happening but much slower than the very vigorous fermentation before racking to the carboy.   My plan is to leave it alone until it clears and then have another taste.  Maybe I should consider adding LAB now as you suggest.

I may invest in the BrewJacket or some other means of chilling to maintain a lower temp next year.  Also may try the Wyeast 4766 next time.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Bill

 

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From: Zachary Taylor <ztayl...@gmail.com>
To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: How to naturally carbonate in bottles

[Josh Kellermann]

Sulphiting is the easier way to avoid a film yeast, but if I understand it right, film yeasts really only grow in an aerobic environment. Once you cap those bottles you shouldn’t have a problem with increased film yeast.

[Dick Dunn]

On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 03:54:57PM -0800, Josh Kellermann wrote:
> Sulphiting is the easier way to avoid a film yeast, but if I understand it right, film yeasts really only grow in an aerobic environment. Once you cap those bottles you shouldn't have a problem with increased film yeast.

That's true in principle. In practice, if you've got a touch of film yeast
in the batch, what you'll get is a slight pellicle at the top of the liquid
in the bottle: It grows for a little bit, then essentially gives up. You
might not even notice it, since agitating the bottle a little will break up
the film and let it drop. But it may occur even if you try to back-flush
the headspace with CO2 as you bottle.
And at this level it doesn't affect taste significantly.

(Also note that sulfite may not be effective against film yeast anyway.)

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Richard Swales]

Just a bit of an update, I think Matthew hit the nail on the head with his comment about extra nutrients getting in with the supermarket juice. I've been finding that even when the cider has stopped fermenting, is settled and clear and had been going at a fairly slow FSU speed before finishing (e.g. FSU 14 in the last week), the additional nutrients included in industrially produced apple juice are enough to cause the yeast to increase in numbers in the bottle as they're working through the apple juice sugar and form a dusty-looking carpet on the bottom of the bottles when they finish. I wouldn't mind that myself as I could tell people it was "farm-style" or some such, but I also think they're acting as nucleation sites to make the CO2 come back out too quickly when the bottle is opened so even though the pressure isn't that high.

The last go was bottled with 1L/10L of apple juice, so it should be 10g of sugar per litre for 2.5 volumes of CO2 - but they're gushing more like champagne when opened. (Gravity after degassing is the same now as it was before bottling, so there shouldn't be issues related to my having bottled too early and got extra sugar in that way).

-Richard

 

On 21/01/2019 19:58, Matthew Moser Miller wrote:

Richard-- I think the advantage of using sugar as your source of priming is far more reliably calculated, and it means you add only the sugar without additional nutrients/ avoid the variability of store juice, which you have to measure every time, then do more calculations. Sugar is sugar; factor in temp/pressure/target atm, dissolve in some of the cider, and you're good to go.

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard

Hello Zachary, fellow beginner here.

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