Spray schedule for cider apples

[Michael Clifford]

I’m quickly realizing that spraying is the most expensive part of growing apples. I live in the northeast United States (NJ) where fireblight, cedar apple rust, aphids, coddling moth, and others are a real problem. Understanding that the apples don’t have to be cosmetically perfect, but I still need to keep the trees healthy, what’s the recommended spray schedule for an orchard that keeps costs down but I still efffective?

[Eric Tyira]

The general concept of holistic sprays is to cover the trees with good stuff (micro-organisms, nutrients, etc.) so that the bad stuff can't find a place to take hold, rather than spray to kill which is very indiscriminate.  You can look to Miracle Farms in Canada and The Holistic Orchard by Michael Phillips.

Regarding insect pests, many organic producers use the red balls covered in sticky goo, or red, plastic party cups covered the same or even a square plastic with a red dot painted on it (to represent and apple) covered in goo.  Coddling moth can be trapped in plastic milk bottles with holes cut in and some molasses inside.

At the same time, build your soil health and add other plants to build biodiversity.  Have predators on hand for your prey.

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 1:32 PM Michael Clifford <mjpcl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’m quickly realizing that spraying is the most expensive part of growing apples. I live in the northeast United States (NJ) where fireblight, cedar apple rust, aphids, coddling moth, and others are a real problem. Understanding that the apples don’t have to be cosmetically perfect, but I still need to keep the trees healthy, what’s the recommended spray schedule for an orchard that keeps costs down but I still efffective?

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[woodcarver]

Spraying can be very expensive and time consuming. Your ag extension can hook you up with a spray schedule but it will most likely be either fully conventional or an integrated pest management (IPM) approach. Eric is suggesting essentially an organic approach. If you're going to go with the latter (which is what I do though I'm not certified) then you're going to have to take a deep dive. I started with Michael Phillips' book, The Apple Grower. I think it's the best book to start with but I do recommend reading The Holistic Orchard as well. The thing is, holistic orcharding requires a lot of labor. Permaculturing maybe less labor in the long run but lots up front. Unfortunately, there is no easy spray schedule for an organic/holistic approach. You have to work with the ecosystem, nudging here and shielding there. I have a full time job (other than caring for a 5 acre cider orchard) and that means I can't do a lot of the work that Phillips recommends. I do what I can when I can and so far that has been just enough.

[Duncan Hewitt]

Hi Michael,

Here's a blog post I wrote about using molasses for codling moth traps, it might be useful:

https://merrybower.co.uk/blog/?p=2727

We also use nematodes to spray any trees that are suffering extensively, it seems to nobble them to much lower levels - spraying a whole orchard would be crazy expensive.

Along with those methods to help combat codling moth, we also make sure to clean up fallen leaves to get rid of ground cover for mouth larvae, we run a breed of chicken in the orchard that is a an active and keen bug hunter (Marsh Daisy), have installed bat boxes on an old oak on the north side and dotted tit boxes (holes only large enough for blue tits) around the hedge surrounding the orchard.

We do get insect damage, but it's bearable - the perfect fruit gets sold to a local farm shop, the imperfect gets pressed.

Our current biggest problem is brown rot, I'm still deciding how to cope with that - the current method is to pick and dispose of any infected fruit, but I need to find an organic treatment for it I suspect, one that doesn't interfere with the microbiology of the orchard too much, if at all.

Cheers,

Duncan

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[Eric Tyira]

Duncan

Can you report on how the moth and plum traps have performed?  Did you see a noticeable drop in affected fruit?

Your post was from 5 years ago.  Any consistent results?

Eric

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[Duncan Hewitt]

Hi Eric,

Unfortunately I don't have any comparison as it was a new orchard, but I can say that nematodes did work extremely well on gooseberry bushes against a bad outbreak of sawfly (three drenches two weeks apart) and there's been minimal recurrence. We used nematodes against plum moth maggot and again, it *seemed* to work for the following year, but I really should keep better records. As we're not huge though, the cost to us is minimal as it's more of a paying hobby scale (80 mixed fruit trees). All I *can* say is that codling moth is an issue in trees we haven't sprayed, but doesn't seem to be a major issue in those we have. We possibly lose about 5% fruit to them at a very rough guess.

What I should do is pick on an isolated tree, one springs to mind, and concentrate on that. An issue we have with a mixed orchard is that the staggered blossom and fruiting times make a mess of any spraying schedule we'd likely want in terms of maggot hatch. My notes tell me that this is the last week we can spray for codling moth effectively though - again, the expert at 3M I talked to about codling moth gave me rough windows within which to spray, taking into account the fruit mix we had.

Our system on trees I *know* to be affected in the previous season:

May to August (inclusive) - hang codling moth and plum moth traps
Mid to late June - spray Plum Moth nematodes
Early to Mid July - spray Plum Moth nematodes
Mid September - spray Codling Moth nematodes
Mid October - spray Codling Moth nematodes

As mentioned, it's not enough of an issue with these pests for me to worry, it's the brown rot that is our problem, not helped by an infected oak bordering the orchard I suspect.

Duncan Hewitt
Merrybower Homestead
07941 905796

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[cghoe...@gmail.com]

Obviously we have different pests, and our timing is significantly different in other parts of the world.  I think the original post was from NJ USA, so back to mjpclifford question/comment about spray schedules.  In the USA, as with most of the world, whether for cider or for fresh eating, organic or conventional, pest management at times can be the most difficult (and expensive) part of growing apples, until you start paying labor expenses, and then...  

When looking at managing pests I would suggest that one should start with the end product and goal to determine how intensive the management of trees and pests.  If the objective is cider, then we may be able to live with some pests and the associated damage and loss.   For me, we're a PYO orchard so we don't have to be as "clean" and perfect as market apples, but people will never pick apples with rots, cracks or insect damage and there can be no worms or it's game over and no repeat business.  For us, for the small percentage of fruit that we know the customers won't pick, we pick them and turn them into cider.  And our customers tell us (by what they don't pick or drop after picking) that they are only okay with a subset of blemishes or damage, but also want as little pesticides as possible.  So that's our goal too.

Anyway, with all of that said, in the US you'll mainly find Integrated Pest Management (IPM) being taught and practiced, whether organic or conventional and even in a growing number of small backyard orchards.  By knowing the pests, their environment, when a pest is occurring in YOUR trees, what its lifecycle is, and what stresses can make the trees susceptible to pests, you can manage your trees and areas around your trees to try to avoid, reduce, treat, trap or exclude the pest that may prevent you from meeting your goal.  NJ is close to Cornell.  Cornell University has extensive information regarding apples, pests and IPM.  Don't worry about conventional vs organic.  Conventional and organic growers use many organic and holistic techniques, and most use IPM.

Chris

[David Pickering]

A further contribution to this topic…

The link below contains the 2020/2021 assessment of apple scab infection for the cider cultivars I’m growing here in Australia.

http://www.cideroz.com/cider-apples-black-spot/

As you’ll see there’s a wide range of resistances/susceptibilities.

If the genetics of the cultivar are such that it is not going to be infected by apple scab then that’s one less issue that your spray schedule has to plan for. Doesn’t help if you’ve already got susceptible cultivars growing but useful information when starting out or planning expansion.

Cheers - David

David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800 Australia

http://www.cideroz.com/
http://www.cideraustralia.org.au/

[Walden Heights]

It is important to gauge well what your ultimate goal is with the orchard. What I mean by this is that there are a few factors in play: the fruit, the tree, and your personal/growing philosophy. For those commercial cider makers, some of this will also play a part in marketing. One point however comes up a lot for me as an orchard consultant...disease and pest management strategy. Specifically, a lot of cidermakers with their own orchards like to think that they will be able to maintain a carefree approach. This is not necessarily the case. True, it is immensely easier to produce cider level fruit finish as opposed to something like the retail dessert market. However, the respectful care of the tree itself is crucial. The impasse is usually disease complexes or a large influx of insect pests. I have seen a good many "hands off" orchards replete with fireblight, black rot, scale, you name it. This can lead to croploss, rots, premature drop and often tree mortality. As mentioned above an ipm approach means learning what is out there, the farmer's threshold, and being ready to deal with violations to orchard health at a moment's notice.  This often means at least some degree of spraying, trapping and monitoring. Yes, some are lucky, and yes cider fruit can stand to be pretty ugly indeed, but you have to be prepared to be involved. Begin in the winter, policing for canker, mummified fruit, and damage. Get out there weekly to assess. If you have had issues in the past season with disease, be preemptive (ie a spray regime, biological or other methods). Also think about fruit condition as relates to pressing time (ie fruit storage considerations), as any insect damage or disease rots will greatly reduce its longevity and can be infected with acetobacter and molds more readily. The general point is that "cider growing" can be a whole lot easier than growing dessert fruit, it comes with some responsibility nonetheless.

[dave pert]

I was speaking to another apple grower recently who advised me to plant a rose bush or two in the orchard. The logic was that these will be hit by pests about 2 weeks before the apples, giving a window of opportunity to react. I have no reason to doubt his advice, but haven't tried it yet. A bit of googling suggests it's a practice that came from vineyards. It might be an option if you want to switch from a proactive routine to a more reactive one to minimise costs or negative impacts.

[Walden Heights]

The practice of using another species (or plant) as either an "indicator" or "sacrificial/trap" plant has merit. Rugosa rose is a great attractant for Japanese Beetle for instance. There are two concepts to think about. First, there will be hundreds of species that will attract hundreds of insects (or diseases if that is your goal), and so you can slowly establish indicators or draws for each potential pest. These indicators can also help you establish things like pollinator populations or beneficials in your orchard. The second concept is just exactly are you going to do about it. Often these plants are used as trap plants, for instance a early bearing plum tree being a draw that is then sprayed to reduce that population of curculio. Likewise a rose bush, bramble or wild grape a ground zero for a beetle spray. Usually these are for using a material you do not want to put on your food crop. Likewise, a cidermaker can spray his pomace pile against vinegar and drosophila flies. This is another opportunity for growers to learn about the tangent species in their orchard and become a little wiser. 

[Chris Hoerichs]

To add a follow on with examples - We practice IPM and use different indicators for our different orchard pests.  Some indicators are plants outside or inside of the orchard, and some are different types of traps.  Some pests are every-year and some are not. The point to all of it, as others have said, is to know your orchard and its pests and work to meet your goals and thresholds.

Here are a few examples and pics from our orchard.

Cedar apple rust (CAR) is a disease that is very specific to having 2 plants to complete its lifecycle.  Eastern red cedar trees and apple trees complete the CAR cycle.  Our neighbor’s farm contributes the cedars and we contribute the apple trees to the cycle.  We scout the neighbor's trees to know when the galls start to turn gelatinous.  Treating for CAR outside of its reproductive cycle serves no purpose, and during dry years the CAR cycle is limited so no treatment is needed.  For Apple Maggot (AM) we hang red balls covered in tanglefoot around the outside edge or our orchard.  Some years we catch no AM and some years we do.  If we catch no AM there is no reason to treat.  Last year we did catch AM and treated for it.  My neighbor’s farm down the road has a small orchard and did not treat for AM.  The neighbor's trees had nearly 100% fruit damage from AM.  Another pest we have is oblique banded leaf rollers (OBLR) and we use pheromone traps to determine the timing and threshold for this pest.

I attached some of my pics: CAR on neighbor’s cedar tree in gelatinous reproductive stage, AM on a red ball, AM damage to neighbor’s apple, and OBLR moths on a trap with a pheromone septa lure in the middle.

Chris

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[Eric Tyira]

Great post. Thank you!

Is there anything definitive on the effects of pests and the resulting cider?  I assume there's all kinds of bacteria in/on the pests, in the fruit damage, etc.  Has anyone done studies, something like milling/pressing/fermenting only fruit that has insect damage, just to see what the result is and how it differs from fruit without insect damage?

If you're selling fresh fruit, insect damage is a major issue.  If you're growing for cider, how much of an issue is it really?

Eric

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[cghoe...@gmail.com]

For us, we try to cull our insect, disease, and mechanically damaged fruit for cider (sweet and hard) as long as the apple isn't rotten from it.  We do not use (and have a zero tolerance for) any apples damaged from codling moth or apple maggot because these result in wormy apples (never want to see a customer spitting out your apples with a look of horror) and become very rotten. 

[Les Price]

When I first planted my market orchard I wanted some sort of natural buffer between the first row and the neighbors property. I planted a Rugosa Rose hedge aprox. 1100 feet long x now 20 feet wide.

Main impetus for this plant was to provide flower diversity for orchard insects. After a few years I became worried that maybe I had also created a secondary habitat for the nasty orchard pests i have like Apple Maggot and Coddling Moth. 

I treat my orchards for these pests organically and the key to this process is early monitoring with traps. So I decided to place traps for AM and CM in the rose hedge to see for myself if there was any activity. I did this randomly for 3 years and never caught 1 insect.

So while the Rugosa hedge has been very successful as a buffer and wildlife enhancement and I have laid my fears to rest as it does not attract any unwanted insects, but, overall the hedge is a failure. This is so because of all the song birds that are attracted to it and their #1 food supply during much of the season is the wild blackberry that grows everywhere so their seed ridden poop has brought forth more blackberry hedge than Rugosa.

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[Duncan Hewitt]

Might it be possible that those same birds are also knobbling your bag insect population too? We actively encourage wild birds and bats into the new hedges around the orchard, and don't, yet, have a massive codling moth problem. That said, the squirrels have stripped a 100ft row of hazelnuts - I'm yet to find a use for squirrels in an orchard environment.

Duncan

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[CGJ]

Ducan,

On the concepts of molasses traps for coddling moth, your most recent
blog addition was summer 2020. Have you had any additional insights
since then? Will you be using that technique this summer?

Carl
West Barnstable
Massachusetts

[Duncan Hewitt]

Hi Carl,

I'm afraid I'm awful at record keeping, but yes, I do use that technique every year in the orchard and codling moth aren't a massive problem. By the time the traps have been up a while, the inclination to sort through a mass of goo is just not there, and the cost is minimal so I figure 'why not?'. There's enough written about the technique for me to feel I've got nothing to lose other than a large tub of molasses (I buy the horse feed version as it's really cheap compared to human stuff). I have also resorted to nematodes for the plums too, which were stricken by plum moth one year. Again, that seemed to work, but it's a fast more expensive option.

Cheers,

Duncan

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[Les Price]

Yes Duncan I'm sure those birds are providing benefit in that regard. We too go out of our way to provide bird habitat in the way of hedge rows and non mowed field strips. Bats are great too. I was so happy to see so many bats in our barn when we moved in that I got excited and set about building bat houses everywhere. I never got a bat to move into any of them. I think they are just so happy with the barn.

On the subject of Codling Moth, I have total success with mating disruption. 

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[Eric Tyira]

Les

Do you use pheromone strips for CM mating disruption or something else?

Eric

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[Les Price]

I've remained pretty old school and stuck with the twist ties. All my orchard blocks are trellised and the twist ties have been very east to apply. I've even gotten good enough to put them on one handed... kind of like the milestone you get to with cracking your eggs one handed.

I know there are many newer ways, now for dispensing pheromones. 

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[Eric Tyira]

Twist ties?  I’m unfamiliar with this.   I’m assuming you twist them on like for a loaf of bread and then coat them with something?  What is the something?

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[Les Price]

Fairly simple but has good pictures.....

Codling Moth Mating Disruption (usu.edu)

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