IBC fermenting - how do I set up this system (pictured)

[ronan...@hotmail.com]

Hello,

I was planning on using a normal bung/bubbler in the 2" hole on the lid but heard that it would just blow that sky high once fermentation got going.

So I came across this image (see below) but have no idea how they set this up.

If anyone with experience of this could let me know what these folks have going and what parts I need to set up the same, I'd sure appreciate it.

Thanks.

R.

[Chris Schmidt]

You can keep the lid loose during fermentation to let the gas escape (thats what we do). The venting system in your picture is easy, as the caps have threaded inserts that you can screw a hose barb into. Your local fitting supplier should have those, as its fairly common threading.

Chris Schmidt

Tod Creek Craft Cider

273 Prospect Lake Rd, Victoria

Visit our tasting room: Wed to Sat, 10am - 4pm

250-882-1061

Sent from my iPhone 

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[Wes Cherry]

Those are basco lids (google it). They have 2 2" npt ports.   The threads are somewhat out of spec for Schutz totes and they don't seal very well.

I fit type F male cam lock ports into the stock cap.   Type DC Cam lock caps resting on the male port acts as an airlock.  When fermentation is done I lock he cams.

I originally made up type C Cam lock-to blow off hose assemblies, but they are more hassle than they are worth.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

[ronan...@hotmail.com]

Than you, Chris and Wes.

That gives me a really sound footing to go forward on. This was causing me stress.

Wes, I'm a big fan of your Wild Fermented. Well done.

R.

[CiderSupply.com]

Just a side note, from the photo I'm willing to bet those hoses are going outside into some sort of big airlock since that exit door doesn't look vented, and they didn't want to make a gas chamber.

Having the hoses positively vented to the outside I imagine allows them to control their room temperature very well without having to keep a window open and a fan running.

Best regards,

Chris Rylands

[Jason Mitchell (Ashridge Cider)]

IBCs are a great easy and cheap way to handle Cider at various stages. 

But, as we all know, the big drawback is the high surface area to volume ratio. 

A way to reduce this surface area, and all the subsequent problems this causes is this:

Blow the thing up with gas (either from a cylinder or fermenting Cider) to make the top assume a dome, and hey presto, you have a much smaller area of cider in contact with air. Keep the metal bars in place, as when deformed they hold the top of the IBC up. 

Downside is that they don’t stack. 

But drastic, but if you are worried about the effects of air on the cider give it a go. 

Jason

[Wes Cherry]

I have just bent the top bars to achieve the same thing.  This method sounds easier.

Best to fill it nearly full with water if you are going to used compressed air/gas to inflate.   A tremendous amount of energy can be stored in compressible gas and if the ibc exploded it could be spectacular (deadly).   With incompressible water it's much safer.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

[Chris Schmidt]

Bend the bars upwards with a 4’ long crowbar, and tap two ⅜” holes into the high parts, then insert a ⅜ stainless bolt. This allows you to completely fill the IBC until the cider pours out the tap holes, then thread in the bolts. Now you have a tote without any air in it. 

Chris Schmidt

Tod Creek Craft Cider

273 Prospect Lake Rd, Victoria

Visit our tasting room: Wed to Sat, 10am - 4pm

250-882-1061

Sent from my iPhone 

[ronan...@hotmail.com]

Hello folks,

Thanks for the tip.

The IBCs come pre-filled, but I guess I could bend the bars upwards and then screw the top on tight. Once fermentation gets going, the build up of CO2 would do the sculpting, no? So long as I remember to loosen the cap on time.

Just out of interest, have any of you tried primary or secondary fermenting in the Bag in a Box?

R.

[Chris Schmidt]

Don’t let the CO2 do the pushing, your entire  tote cage will puff out, not just the top. Then you’ll have a fat cage that isn’t structurally sound anymore and too fat for a ‘pallet spot’ on the truck.

Any type of fermentation in BIB is a bad idea. Imagine giant 1000L balloon going ‘pop’! Plus the liners aren’t designed for that use, and you can have seperation of the liners. I had one juice bag that kicked off because the pasteurization of the juice was goofed, and we had to vent the bag every few hours until we could pump it out...exciting times indeed when I came into the cidery in the morning and looked at this giant puff ball ready to explode. Got a picture of it somewhere...

Chris Schmidt

Tod Creek Craft Cider

273 Prospect Lake Rd, Victoria

Visit our tasting room: Wed to Sat, 10am - 4pm

250-882-1061

Sent from my iPhone 

--

[ronan...@hotmail.com]

Ha ha, Chris. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh but that would have been quite the sight.

Ok, so BIBs are out. My budget even for IBCs is tight but they are cheaper then 275 gallons of ruined juice.

Thanks.

R.

[CiderSupply.com]

Something that's worked well for me as taking a sheet of plastic approximately 8 mils thick and cutting it out to the same diameter of the container and floating it on top of the cider to form a barrier between the Surface and the air. This works well for keeving when it takes a long time to keeve and I don't want mold spots to start to form on top of my cider. CO2 still escapes and direct surface contact between cider and Ayers reduced down to almost nothing.

It also is very handy when my cider level is changing, I still add CO2 or nitrogen to form a additional layer.

So I imagine for the big ibc's one could roll it up insert it into the opening and let it unroll itself on top of the cider.

Best regards

Chris Rylands

[Clinton McDougall]

I too have had an IBC go fat from expansion, would like to try rounding the just tops though.

Has anyone experimented with putting a neutral oil (like grape seed) as a barrier on top of cider that is aging in an IBC?

I suppose it would require leaving a bit more cider in the tote when racking. Any other drawbacks people have ran into?

Clinton

Sunshine Coast, British Columbia

[woodcarver]

Darn on the 1000L bag-in-box solution. I talked to a manufacturer about a year ago (looking for my notes to find which one) about their oxygen barrier lining and he seemed to think that fermentation would be ok, especially if gas had a way to escape. Don't they make BiBs designed to go inside an IBC--something to provide more structural support and to hold the juice in case of a leak?

[Chris Schmidt]

Yes, there is one. Grayling makes the Guardian liner that you can ferment in. I use them as back-ups in case the valve on an IBC tote is broken or leaking. See attached photos...

Chris Schmidt

Tod Creek Craft Cider

273 Prospect Lake Rd, Victoria

Visit our tasting room: Wed to Sat, 10am - 4pm

250-882-1061

Sent from my iPhone 

--

[Lief Stevens]

Wow that brings back memories. The picture is from our old facility which was a tiny little place with no drains in the floors. Oh what fun! We had no money for tanks when we first started so we bought 8 totes and some bag-in-boxes. I think this is what we used for the lids http://bascousa.com/fill-cap-for-ibc-tanks.html . Wes is right the thread was a little weird and they were a pain to take on and off. We ran the hose into a bucket. 

We still use totes for transporting juice but ferment in stainless. I can't say I miss totes.

-Lief 

Noble Cider

[woodbo...@gmail.com]

Hi,

We use a similar setup but just work with the standard red Schutz lids that have the single 2" threaded NPT port.  I got a 2"x1.5" PVC reducer at Home Depot, then found a 1/5" NPT elbow with 1/5" hose barb (nylon), fitted them together then used 1/5" flexible spa hose and ran it into a bucket that I hang off the IBC cage via an "S" hook.  Headspace hasn't been mentioned here yet I don't think, and maybe it's obvious but for all but the most vigorous fermentations, I've found I can get away with filling to about 265 gallons without getting much blowoff.

Mike

Woodbox Cider

[Tom Turner]

Have/would you ever ferment in steel and mature in ibc?  Trying to imagine how I could increase production capacity but allow for appropriate maturation time.

I would then consider pumping back to steel for force carb and packaging.  have you any recommendations around this subject?  

Also how do you fill and empty an IBC? do you use a bulldog through the fill cap, just a pump and hose? has anyone upgraded the drain to adapt to a fill hose?

Tom

[Wes Cherry]

I would do the opposite.  Fermentation likes the oxygen ibcs provide.   Once complete ibcs let in way too much o2.

Metallized 1000L bag in boxes are used by a number of cideries for maturation.   I haven’t used them myself.

A 2” camlock fitting works on nearly all ibc bottom ports.

I don’t trust the cleanliness of ibc bottom ports so do all transfers from the top using PD pump and a 4’  long 1” diam stainless tube.   A PVC version would work just as well.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[Tom Turner]

Thank you, I appreciate your help. I'll look into the metal liner option. 

If I go ahead with production I possibly have access to only one 1000l fermenter and a cold room. Turn around would be too low to bother if matured in fermenter for 2-3 months. 

[Eric Tyira]

For what it's worth, I got these from Schutz.  One is a bag in tote and the other is an external tote liner designed to minimize O2 permeation through the wall.  I called them to ask about making a craft beverage specific tote.  That went over like a lead zeppelin.

I can't bring myself to use a disposable bag.  We already toss too much plastic away ...

[Eric Tyira]

Here's the other attachment.

[Tom Turner]

Thank you very much. This low tech approach could make production a viable option for me. I appreciate your help

[Eric Tyira]

My Pleasure!  Glad I could help.

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[Wes Cherry]

Some may remember a group order of the schutz ecobulk mx ev a while back.   We have them, but initial results are they don’t really work.   Sulfite consumption (a proxy for o2 transmission) is the same as regular ibcs ( about 5-8ppm/week).  

I need to characterize their sulfite consumption them better with a couple more data points, but it’s likely that either the barrier doesn’t work as promised or schutz slapped some mxev stickers on some regular ibcs.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

[Lief Stevens]

As Wes said I would definitely not considered maturing in an IBC. Way too much oxygen pick up. This is the reason a lot of people use the bag and box systems as they do a better job with O2 permeation. If you can swing it I really recommend stainless. I know it's quite expensive but there are so many advantages. 

With juice we usally fill through the bottom port with a 2" camlock to triclamp adapter. Sometime we just go in through the top port. We only use totes for transporting juice at the moment. For racking use a stainless racking cane and a flexable impeller or air operated double diaphragm pump. When we couldn't afford much else we used a Shurflo Pump 2088-594 which worked well but is quite slow.

Video on IBC's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9diQI1PKyA&t=1s

- Lief Stevens

Noble Cider

www.NobleCider.com

Cider Blog

www.youtube.com/Ciderblogger

[sdi...@wavecable.com]

Having some of these IBC’s, have you had any better or further results with your IBC’s?  I will be fermenting in mine and storing too.  Sounds like a lot of sulfite will be needed.

Suzy

[Brendan Kearns]

What method are people using to clean and sanitize their IBC banjo ports? I put a 90 degree elbow onto my camlock to triclamp fitting filled it and left some pbw in there, scrubbed, drained then starsan. I as well dont fully trust the cleanliness of these ports...might rack from the top unless someone has a better sop.

[Greg McNulty]

Im also curious on how to properly clean and sanitize IBCs for re-use.

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[Igor Osanov]

Hi, Greg!

I always steam IBCs without any troubles. Just fix hose at the bottom tap (probably with adapter) allow the steam go inside and arrange to leave the steam out from top. Some minutes will be enough.

 

Igor
 

Среда, 17 июня 2020, 22:02 +03:00 от Greg McNulty <gmcnu...@gmail.com>:
 

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[Ian Jenkins]

For cleaning I have made a CIP setup using my transfer pump to circulate the cleaning fluid round the IBC and also use on barrels 

Process is - quick wash with pressure washer to remove the bulk of gunge then 40 mins with a caustic cleaner

- rinse out

- 40 mins with an acid steriliser 

- rinse out

Job done, this has cleaned marks that could not be removed in any other way, connect up most of my hoses to the pump so they are cleaned and sterilised at the same time

The Ball washer is similar to this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304-Stainless-Rotating-Tank-Washing-Nozzle-CIP-Rotary-Spray-Ball-Cleaning-Head-H/264739157645?hash=item3da3aef68d:g:vYwAAOSwCHBa9r8i

[Vince Wakefield]

Can I ask what your transfer pump is and which size ball you use.

 

Cheers

Vince

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[Ian Jenkins]

Hi Vince 

I use the novax 20 and the ball for a 3/4 bsp fitting as wanted one that would fit inside a tight head drum opening, could possibly do with a pump with more output for pressure but it does the job well for me

I pot 40 litres water mix in IBC and outlet goes to pump and then in a modified IBC lid I have drilled a hole in to plumb the spray ball though also added a short extension pipe so its not right against the top ball is about 15 cm down from the top

https://www.vigoltd.com/Catalogue/Pumps/NOVAX-20M-centrifugal-pump-93260

[William Grote]

Looks like Grayling is closed, anyone have any other suggestions for liners like these?

Thanks

[Dave Mitchell]

Are you sure?  I just got some bags from Grayling last week.  I used their Canadian distributor - Barr Plastics.