Sweetening Cider after it has Fermented

[Jeff Peters]

I am a new cider maker in the US (NW).  Just a hobbyist with no intentions to follow the commercial route--at least not yet.

I just finished fermenting my first cider from this past fall.  The juice was from desert apples.  The OSG was about 1.05 and is now 0.0.   I made three batches:  One with champagne yeast, One with English Cider Yeast, and One with no cultured yeast.  The cider with the cultured yeast is quite dry--as I expected.  

I plan to rack all the cider, store it, and let it age for several months.  However, after the aging, I would like to back sweeten the driest of these batches with frozen apple juice concentrate.  I was planning to add potassium sorbate and then back sweeten the cider and then bottle it as still cider.  But, from Andrew's comments and several others, it is my understanding that this cider may continue to ferment the new sweet apple juice even if I add potassium sorbate.  If this is true, what do I do, if I want to back sweeten the cider with apple juice concentrate and bottle it--without it exploding down the road.  I realize I could substitute non-fermenting sweetners and avoid this dilemma.  But, I regularly read that some cider hobbyists use potassium sorbate and apple juice concentrate to back sweeten to take the edge off very dry cider and then bottle it as still cider.  How does one do this without risking exploding bottles?  

[Andrew Lea]

On 04/01/2015 22:38, Jeff Peters wrote:


> But, I regularly read that some cider hobbyists use potassium
> sorbate and apple juice concentrate to back sweeten to take the edge off
> very dry cider and then bottle it as still cider. How does one do this
> without risking exploding bottles?

You can't. The risk is always present. Especially with apple juice
conc, which is far from sterile and contains preservative resistant
yeasts such as Zygosacharomyces bailii.

In-bottle pasteurisation is the only safe option on a domestic scale.
Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Jeffrey S. Petrillo]

Besides pasteurization (which gives it a cooked taste, IMHO), it sounds like non-fermenting sweeteners or sweetening at the time of pouring is the most prudent method for achieving the result I am aiming for.

Thank you for the input.

-Jeff Petrillo
jeffpe...@gmail.com
(503) 804-7246

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

--- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/xKyB3EFq7Ok/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Jeffrey S. Petrillo]

Or keeving.

-Jeff Petrillo
jeffpe...@gmail.com
(503) 804-7246

[Andrew Lea]

On 04/01/2015 23:13, Jeffrey S. Petrillo wrote:
>
> Besides pasteurization (which gives it a cooked taste, IMHO),

Pasteurisation of ciders sometimes gets a bad name because it is often
poorly carried out by amateurs. Two precautions will go a long way to
minimise the development of any cooked flavour:

1. Add 30 - 50 ppm S02 to the cider just before bottling.

2. Use the minimum temperature you need to do the job - bring the bottle
contents to 66C, cap them, and let them cool on their sides to sterilise
the inside of the caps.

[Wes Cherry]

I have found that bringing the contents to 63C accumulates enough pasteurization units for shelf stability.

I pasteurize carbonated cider with the cap on and fully submersed. We use heavy duty champagne quality bottles. Less than 1% break during pasteurization, the breaking always occurs in the bath as a gentle “pop” as the bottom breaks cleanly off of the bottle.

Keep the bath temp at ~75C. Higher temps might create more thermal stress and lead to more breakage.

The flavor difference between pasteurized and unpasteurized cider is slight — generally detectable in A/B tests, but not otherwise.

-Wes

> --
> --
> Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
> By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
>
> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en
>

> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

[Edu V Coto]

I know some german producers who use to keep a pasteurized apple juice reserve to be used just before S02 are added durind bottling process.

[Jeffrey S. Petrillo]

I found this testing/study information online

Pasteurization methods to stabilize bottled fermented apple cider

S. VALOIS and O. I. Padilla-Zakour. Food Science and Technology, Cornell Univ., New York State Agricultural Experiment Station, 630 W. North St., Geneva, NY 14456-1371

Processed apple products constitute an important part of New York's food industry. Hard (fermented) cider is made by yeast fermentation of juice and represents a small but growing portion of the market for alcoholic beverages, providing an alternative utilization of apples for specialty value-added products. Our objective was to evaluate the effect of various pasteurization treatments on the microbial stability and quality of bottled hard cider prepared without chemical preservatives. Hard cider (6.5%alcohol) was pasteurized and packaged in ten ounce glass bottles with screw caps using two methods: hot-fill-hold and water bath process. Ciders were hot-filled at 60°C, 63° C, and 65.5° C with a hold time of 3 minutes before cooled in 24°C water. Bottled cider samples were pasteurized in a water bath at 74° C for 10, 20, and 30 minutes and submersed in 74° C water for 5 minutes. Bacteria, yeast, and mold counts were measured before and after treatments. Ciders were analyzed for pH, titratable acidity, residual sugars, alcohol, Hunter color and evaluated by a sensory panel to determine if panelists could find a difference between the methods. All trials were conducted in duplicate. All hot-fill-hold and bottle pasteurization methods eliminated spoilage organisms that might decrease the shelf life, indicating that a short process at low temperature is sufficient to stabilize the cider. There were no significant differences between the treatments for alcohol, sugars, color, pH or titratable acidity. Taste panels showed a noticeable difference between treatments and control as well as between pasteurization treatments. Lower temperatures and shorter times resulted in best quality. Small wineries or cider producers could use a short time in bottle pasteurization, which would only require a source of hot water, or a low temperature hot packing line in order to have a stable hard cider while maintaining flavor profile and eliminating use of preservatives. 

 

Jeffrey S. Petrillo

Phone: (503) 804-7246,    Fax: (503) 389-1075

E-mail:    jeffpe...@gmail.com

"We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us."  -Winston Churchill

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/xKyB3EFq7Ok/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

[Rich Anderson]

From the article it is not clear,  a least to me what the pasteurization process was, and what internal temperatures were observed. It sound like they were dunking them in a hot bath for a set period of time rather than monitoring the process to achieve a target pasteurization unit.

[Steve Kaiser]

Is pasteurization out of the bottle a possible solution too?
Steve Kaiser

[Joseph Hall]

Hi Rich,

Looks like this should shed just a little more light on things:

http://vivo.cornell.edu/display/individual16419

"In order to create, you have to have the willingness, the desire to be challenged, to be learning." -- Ferran Adria (speaking at Harvard, 2011)

[Andrew Lea]

On 05/01/2015 15:23, Steve Kaiser wrote:
> Is pasteurization out of the bottle a possible solution too?

Only if you 'hot-fill' (see the Cornell notes) and be sure not to break
the chain of sterility as you fill. 'In bottle' is less vulnerable to
adventitious contamination.

[Nat West]

The accumulation of PUs for shelf stability cannot be reduced to a specific temperature, be it 66C or 63C. What matters is the pathogen load in the bottle prior to pasteurization as well as the makeup of said pathogens. Some of my ciders are stable (microbiologically dead) by hitting 63C, others need as high as 71-72C (!!) to be the same. The only way to make sure you're pasteurizing enough is to run samples at multiple PUs and get them analyzed by a lab. And then frequently double-check whenever you change any procedure, or any variable.

[Andrew Lea]

Nat is absolutely right of course. But the amateur or hobbyist is not going to do trials at different PUs and send them  at considerable expense to a professional microbiology lab for plate counts. That's why we come up with the rules of thumb which have actually worked well in real life for generations. 

For instance, the procedures I give come from Long Ashton back in the 1960s. They work well for normal ciders made from fresh apple juice fermented to dryness and back sweetened with sugar after a normal maturation period. They may of course not apply to some of the more bizarre modern formulations which are currently marketed as 'ciders'.  If you push the boat out in that way then you may indeed need to go back to basics and do your groundwork all over again. 

I confess I am very 'torn' here. On the one hand I can see why most people need a simple rule of thumb which enables them to make a safe cider that doesn't explode in their cellar. On the other hand I despair that people have such a poor understanding of beverage microbiology that they don't seem to understand the basics of what they are trying to do. Every year at this time we get the same sorts of questions about sugar sweetening ciders while waving some sort of magic wand that will stop them refermenting!

I fear that some of us are not doing a very good job of microbiological education ;-)

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[t...@functionalmedia.com]

Personally I read this thread and found a wealth of microbiological education :-)

I learned that pasteurization does not do too much damage to flavor, and that bottles break gracefully in the hot water bath,so there is little to fear, that breakage is a small percent of loss,  and that varying amounts of PU may be needed to get the job done. The Cornell study was helpful, as was the personal experience of respected cider producers. 

Thanks Andrew , Nat, Edu, Wes,  and Joseph for responding and to Jeff for asking. 

--

Tom

[Jeffrey S. Petrillo]

I agree with Tom.  This discussion has helped me as well.  Based on the advice and comments offered here, I am planning to add potassium sorbate and SO2 at the end of the maturation phase and prior to back sweetening and bottling.  I plan to follow this up with a 50 degree C. pasteurization of the bottles for 10 minutes with a cool bath to follow.  My goal is not a sweet or even an semi-sweet cider.  Rather, I am aiming for an "off-dry" taste (as Claude Jolicoeur would put it) by raising the SG up just a bit from completely dry.  

Understanding the microbiology of beverage making is one the biggest hurdles for new cider hobbyists to master.  And, we appreciate the time that Andrew and other experienced cider makers take to respond to questions and concerns.

Before closing this thread, I should mention that I dived into Claude Jolicoeur's handbook last night to see what he had to offer on this topic.  And, if I understand him collectedly, rather than back-sweetening fully fermented juice, Claude favors multiple rackings of low-nutrient cider at cool temperatures, beginning right after the primary fermentation, and continuing with rackings so as to starve the yeast to the point where they are no longer active and the SG has reached 1.005-1.008.  I might try this approach with my next batch. But, is it a widely accepted practice?  It seems somewhat hit and miss in terms of trying to catch the SG at the right moment--plus it involves a lot of racking labor and perhaps overexposure of the cider to air.

 

Jeffrey S. Petrillo

Phone: (503) 804-7246,    Fax: (503) 389-1075

E-mail:    jeffpe...@gmail.com

"We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us."  -Winston Churchill

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/xKyB3EFq7Ok/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Lea]

On 06/01/2015 05:42, Jeffrey S. Petrillo wrote:

> I plan to follow this up with a 50 degree C.
> pasteurization of the bottles for 10 minutes with a cool bath to
> follow.

Sorry but 50C will not be sufficient to do the job. That's not high
enough to reliably kill fermenting yeasts.

[Andrew Lea]

On 06/01/2015 05:42, Jeffrey S. Petrillo wrote:

> Claude favors multiple rackings
> of low-nutrient cider at cool temperatures, beginning right after the
> primary fermentation, and continuing with rackings so as to starve the
> yeast to the point where they are no longer active and the SG has
> reached 1.005-1.008. I might try this approach with my next batch. But,
> is it a widely accepted practice?

It is not widely done commercially worldwide except in conjunction with
a keeving process. But it is the basis of much of what is done in
France. As you say, it requires low nutrient fruit, slow wild
fermentations, and attention to detail. I will leave Claude to expound
that detail!

It is not a 'turnkey' process but it certainly can work if you have the
conditions right. You have to plan it from the beginning though, not
least in terms of fruit origin and supply. If you are using bulk
non-cider apples from a commercial grower it's less likely to work
because of their high nutrient status.

Again, it reflects yet another aspect of beverage microbiology, in this
case controlling the amount of nutrient available to the yeast. As you
say it's about trying to starve it out so it can't grow very much. It is
a very different approach to killing the yeast by heat or chemicals, or
removing it physically by 'sterile' filtration.

[Dick Dunn]

On Mon, Jan 05, 2015 at 09:42:59PM -0800, Jeffrey S. Petrillo wrote:
> I agree with Tom. This discussion has helped me as well. Based on the
> advice and comments offered here, I am planning to add potassium sorbate
> and SO2 at the end of the maturation phase and prior to back sweetening and
> bottling. I plan to follow this up with a 50 degree C. pasteurization of

> the bottles for 10 minutes with a cool bath to follow...

This doesn't make sense to me; help please. If you plan to pasteurize,
what's with the sorbate (and SO2)?? But if you're planning to pasteurize,
why onlyh 50 C (and for how long?)?

If the cider is stable (not actively fermenting) you can use SO2 + sorbate
to make it safe long-term. If you want to pasteurize -instead-, OK. But
two half-measures won't give you a full measure of protection.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[bob_luke]

Nat, how do you structure those tests commercially?  How many bottles at each temp variation do you need to get a reliable number?  I know that your batches are pretty large, so do you do this for every new batch?

[Jeffrey S. Petrillo]

The 50C was a mistype.  That should have been stated as 60C to 65C.   I have pasteurized raw cider at 70C, and it has a distinct "cooked" taste.  So, I am trying to stay below 70C.  With the addition of Potassium Sorbate and SO2, I believe a slightly lower pasteurization temp is worth a try.

 

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

--- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/xKyB3EFq7Ok/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Jeff Petrillo wrote:

Before closing this thread, I should mention that I dived into Claude Jolicoeur's handbook last night to see what he had to offer on this topic.  And, if I understand him collectedly, rather than back-sweetening fully fermented juice, Claude favors multiple rackings of low-nutrient cider at cool temperatures, beginning right after the primary fermentation, and continuing with rackings so as to starve the yeast to the point where they are no longer active and the SG has reached 1.005-1.008.  I might try this approach with my next batch. But, is it a widely accepted practice?  It seems somewhat hit and miss in terms of trying to catch the SG at the right moment--plus it involves a lot of racking labor and perhaps overexposure of the cider to air.

Jeff,
Andrew's comment is quite right. I would certainly recommend that you make a few small test batches before trying this on a commercial scale batch. Once you get a good feeling for the process, you will find that it doesn't require that much racking labor - usually a first racking soon after the turbulent phase has quieted down (i.e. around SG 1.030 - 1.035), and a second racking maybe around SG 1.010 - 1.012. The speed of fermentation should then get very slow, eventually reaching SG 1.006 - 1.008, at which stage you rack again and bottle. You might still get another point or two of SG fall in bottle. making the cider slightly petillant. Note that I never had a bottle explode although it did happen once or twice that the cider became slightly more petillant in bottle than anticipated.

As you are only aiming for an off-dry cider, it is easier to achieve than if you wanted a fully sweet cider stable at SG 1.020! Note also that keeving is not absolutely required for this to work, but a successful keeve helps in keeping the cider clear. And as a final note, I have been told by commercial French cider makers that use this process routinely, that on a commercial size batch, a racking is not as efficient as in a hobbyist's demi-john. Hence a big batch may require more rackings and/or filtering while racking to achieve the same result.
Claude

[Rich Anderson]

Jeffery, I think you are still missing some pieces to pasteurizing. The goal is to eliminate the common microbiology( like active yeast cells) in the cider which would alter the flavor profile after bottling. Ok so this means that the cider, the bottle etc need to be sterile, pasteurization is commonly use to achieve this. Pasteurization of cider is commonly cited as 50 Pasteurization Units @ 60c. A Pasteurization Unit(PU) is 60c @ 1 minute. At the low end, 25 PUs are considered sufficient, so the cited 50 PUs is insurance.  To really measure the PU’s think of it as the area under a curve, starting with 55c and upwards to at least 60c and downwards to 55c for n number of minutes until you reach the equivalent of 50 PU @ 60c. If you like calculus plot it out and calculate the area under the curve, program it into a temperature monitoring devise.

 

Now comes the empirical practice, many small cideries, myself included use bath pasteurization because the equipment is relatively inexpensive to build and it sterilizes the cider, bottle and cap. The process is monitored by placing a thermometer in one or more bottles in each batch to monitor the internal temperature. For the most part it is found if you reach a internal temperature of 60-65c and pull the bottles and let them cool down all is well.  It works despite the fact that the 50 PU target was not obtained. It does not cook the cider, the cider remains stable in the bottle and do not add Potassium Sorbate.

 

Sorry to be so pedantic, just trying to help clear up a subject which comes up regularly. And yes if the researchers were reaching and holding at internal temperatures of 73 for 20-30 minutes they were changing the flavor profile. Also surprised that Nat found that some of his ciders needed higher temperatures to become stable.

 

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Petrillo
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 8:43 AM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Sweetening Cider after it has Fermented

 

The 50C was a mistype.  That should have been stated as 60C to 65C.   I have pasteurized raw cider at 70C, and it has a distinct "cooked" taste.  So, I am trying to stay below 70C.  With the addition of Potassium Sorbate and SO2, I believe a slightly lower pasteurization temp is worth a try.

 

 

 

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 11:49 PM, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.f9.co.uk> wrote:

On 06/01/2015 05:42, Jeffrey S. Petrillo wrote:

 Claude favors multiple rackings
of low-nutrient cider at cool temperatures, beginning right after the
primary fermentation, and continuing with rackings so as to starve the
yeast to the point where they are no longer active and the SG has
reached 1.005-1.008.  I might try this approach with my next batch. But,
is it a widely accepted practice?

It is not widely done commercially worldwide except in conjunction with a keeving process. But it is the basis of much of what is done in France. As you say, it requires low nutrient fruit, slow wild fermentations, and attention to detail. I will leave Claude to expound that detail!

It is not a 'turnkey' process but it certainly can work if you have the conditions right. You have to plan it from the beginning though, not least in terms of fruit origin and supply. If you are using bulk non-cider apples from a commercial grower it's less likely to work because of their high nutrient status.

Again, it reflects yet another aspect of beverage microbiology, in this case controlling the amount of nutrient available to the yeast. As you say it's about trying to starve it out so it can't grow very much. It is a very different approach to killing the yeast by heat or chemicals, or removing it physically by 'sterile' filtration.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com

For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

--- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/xKyB3EFq7Ok/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

 

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
 

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com

For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

---

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Richard wrote:

Pasteurization of cider is commonly cited as 50 Pasteurization Units @ 60c. A Pasteurization Unit(PU) is 60c @ 1 minute. At the low end, 25 PUs are considered sufficient, so the cited 50 PUs is insurance.  To really measure the PU’s think of it as the area under a curve, starting with 55c and upwards to at least 60c and downwards to 55c for n number of minutes until you reach the equivalent of 50 PU @ 60c. If you like calculus plot it out and calculate the area under the curve, program it into a temperature monitoring devise.

The theory of PU is easily found on the Internet as well as, for example, in Andrew's et al. book Fermented Beverage Production, page 379.

It is defined by an equation : PU = (time in minutes) x 1.393 exp(T-60), where T is the temperature in Celsius.

From this equation, you get 

0.2 PU from 1 minute at 55C,

1 PU from 1 minute at 60C,

5 PU from 1 minute at 65C

27 PU from 1 minute at 70C

Hence if you want 50 PU, you would need less than 2 minutes at 70C, or 10 minutes at 65C, or 50 minutes at 60C, or 250 minutes at 55C, or some combination that would yield the total desired. So it is not quite as Richard wrote (i.e. area under the curve) because the effect is not linear, but exponential...

Claude

[Jeffrey S. Petrillo]

Very helpful,Rich.  I was planning to monitor the temp of one open bottle to achieve the needed pasteurization and then lay the bottles on their side to sterilize the neck and cap.  However, what I have heard Andrew both say and write is that SO2 and potassium sorbate is an extra degree of precaution that is warranted.  

 

Jeffrey S. Petrillo

Phone: (503) 804-7246,    Fax: (503) 389-1075

E-mail:    jeffpe...@gmail.com

"We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us."  -Winston Churchill

[Jeffrey S. Petrillo]

Rich,

By the way, is your Wescott Bay Cider distributed in Portland?

 

Jeffrey S. Petrillo

Phone: (503) 804-7246,    Fax: (503) 389-1075

E-mail:    jeffpe...@gmail.com

"We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us."  -Winston Churchill

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:13 PM, Rich Anderson <rhand...@centurytel.net> wrote:

[Andrew Lea]

I think you may be misinterpreting me. If the pasteurisation is adequate, sorbate has no role and no point.  SO2 plus pasteurisation does help to reduce the development of cooked flavours by binding to early Maillard compounds. But it doesn't have an anti microbial role in that context. 

Andrew 

Sent from my iPhone

[Eric Pennell]

Is there enough work to be done before bottling in a production setting to rid the dry cider of residual yeast to safely back-sweeten, carbonate and package without a pasteurization process? 

A dose of gelatin during cold crash in the fermenter, rack to brite tank where sweetener is waiting, carb and package? I suppose you could add a filter step in between the fermenter and brite tank.

Is this process enough to ensure safely back-sweetening, carbing and packaging? 

Thank you! Very informative thread so far.

[Andrew Lea]

No. In-bottle pasteurisation is the only safe bet for the amateur.

Cold sterile filling is *possible* but only in skilled hands with proper
dedicated CIP equipment and in a near-sterile clean-room environment. It
can be done - and is done by large commercial producers - but it is very
costly and requires stringent microbiological control and monitoring at
all times.

[Eric Pennell]

I made a quick reference chart for realistic times and temperatures to achieve 50 PU's. Not sure how well image attachment works in this application, but I'll give it a shot.

[Jeffrey S. Petrillo]

The attachment looks great.  But, for us greenhorns, what does the T(far) columns represent?

 

Jeffrey S. Petrillo

Phone: (503) 804-7246,    Fax: (503) 389-1075

E-mail:    jeffpe...@gmail.com

"We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us."  -Winston Churchill

--

[Eric Pennell]

Sorry, big T is temperature. I did a column for Celsius (cel) and Fahrenheit (far). I probably could have labeled those a little better!

[vince wakefield]

You have 1.8 min’s at 70c does this take into account of the PU’s accumulated while getting to 70c? and if it does how much time are you taking in to account for the change from 50c when it starts accumulating PU’s until you get to 70c

 

Cheers

Vince

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Pennell
Sent: 15 January 2015 5:57 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Sweetening Cider after it has Fermented

 

Sorry, big T is temperature. I did a column for Celsius (cel) and Fahrenheit (far). I probably could have labeled those a little better!

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4257/8935 - Release Date: 01/15/15

[Wes Cherry]

The problem is the cider doesn't instantly become a certain temperature. temperature ramps up and down.

A more useful chart would show the number of PUs accumulated per minute for various temperatures.   You then would sample the temp every minute and accumulate a sum.

It is also debated whether useful PUs accumulate <60c, even though the mathematical model indicates so.

However, I found some papers noting kill of some organisms starting at 50c.  This was for brett in wine.     Another paper noted kills starting at 50c for beer (Pilsner).   On my phone so finding & posting links isn't possible now.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

[Eric Pennell]

All very true. To get exact effects of gradual temperature change you would need to whip out your calculus book. At that point you'd have to take into account room temp and all sorts of other variables. This is more of a relative table I suppose. 

In a practical setting, you'd could pick a length of time and temp and test results until you found one that worked without going too far overboard. Similar to what the Cornell experiment did. 

[Wes Cherry]

A minute wise integration will yield a result very close to a proper integration of the curve because of 3 factors:

1) The cider temp doesn't change much in a minute.

2) that change is essentially linear and always increasing.

3) the exponential pasteurization function is relatively linear within the temperature range of interest, has no asymptotes, and also always increasing.

The temp data isn't a function in any case, so a closed form solution isn't possible - you have to do it stepwise.  

Not sure how room temp matters.  That is unless you build a complete thermal model of heat transfer to the cider which includes all heat losses, transfers and inputs.   Then you could place your bottles in, measure initial conditions and set a timer for time to pull!   

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

[Nat West]

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Andrew Lea <harp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think you may be misinterpreting me. If the pasteurisation is adequate, sorbate has no role and no point.  SO2 plus pasteurisation does help to reduce the development of cooked flavours by binding to early Maillard compounds. But it doesn't have an anti microbial role in that context. 

Andrew, would SO2 also maintain its antioxidant effect for long-term storage post-pasteurization? Assuming O2 in the headspace of the bottle and a good seal. Any research about SO2 losing its anti-oxidant effects with pasteurization?

 

[Andrew Lea]

On 28/01/2015 01:01, Nat West wrote:

>
>
> Andrew, would SO2 also maintain its antioxidant effect for long-term
> storage post-pasteurization? Assuming O2 in the headspace of the bottle
> and a good seal. Any research about SO2 losing its anti-oxidant effects
> with pasteurization?

There is a wee study by Len Burroughs in the Long Ashton rept for 1979.
In that he shows losses of total SO2 in sugar sweetened cider between 6
and 17 ppm attributable to bottling and batch pasteurising. Losses in
bottle over the next 12 months in storage were between 14 - 39 ppm. No
breakdown of free / bound SO2 is given.

These were our normal small scale experimental ciders bottled in glass
with crown cap seals and a normal air headspace. These data agree with
received wisdom. The act of pasteurisation doesn't take out much SO2.
More is lost on long term storage, probably as it scavenges peroxide
radicals or aldehydes generated by the Maillard reaction.

[David Llewellyn]

> Andrew, would SO2 also maintain its antioxidant effect for long-term
> storage post-pasteurization? Assuming O2 in the headspace of the bottle
> and a good seal. Any research about SO2 losing its anti-oxidant effects
> with pasteurization?

Andrew:

"There is a wee study by Len Burroughs in the Long Ashton rept for 1979.
In that he shows losses of total SO2 in sugar sweetened cider between 6
and 17 ppm attributable to bottling and batch pasteurising. Losses in
bottle over the next 12 months in storage were between 14 - 39 ppm. No
breakdown of free / bound SO2 is given."

Andrew how does the SO2 + carbonation + pasteurisation scenario compare with
SO2 + bottle fermentation, from the point of view of loss of SO2 in bottle,
and the progress of oxidation during long term storage. My own limited
observation suggests there is a big difference in the lifespan of the cider,
but it is only 'anecdotal', and I don't know the science behind it.

David Llewellyn


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Andrew Lea]

On 28/01/2015 22:13, David Llewellyn wrote:

>
> Andrew how does the SO2 + carbonation + pasteurisation scenario compare with
> SO2 + bottle fermentation, from the point of view of loss of SO2 in bottle,
> and the progress of oxidation during long term storage. My own limited
> observation suggests there is a big difference in the lifespan of the cider,
> but it is only 'anecdotal', and I don't know the science behind it.

I don't know. It's going to be quite complicated isn't it? If you have a
'dead' (i.e. pasteurised) cider then the equilibria will be purely
chemical to do with polyphenols, oxygen, peroxide radicals, early
Maillard products and SO2 all interacting. After a year or two maybe all
the free SO2 is used up? Burrough's figures would tend to support that.
And I personally find that after 2 or 3 years my pasteurised force
carbonated ciders begin to taste a bit tired, maybe even 'cooked'
eventually. As a food chemist I say to myself "aha, I can detect the
Maillard reaction". But I would expect that, especially after a couple
of summers when the bottles may get a bit warm for a month or two.

Whereas with a 'live' cider, maybe the yeast and bacteria are still able
to metabolise slowly and to provide a reductive atmosphere. This would
help to conserve the SO2, I'd guess. On the other hand the microbial
metabolism would produce sulphite-binding carbonyls, so this might work
the other way. And once the yeast started to autolyse, more flavour
changes would take place. My subjective impression is that my sulphited
but naturally conditioned bottled cider does 'age' but not in the same
way that pasteurised bottle cider does. I don't detect the Maillard
reaction in those ciders. But I have never done a true like for like
comparison.

What do you think?

[David Llewellyn]

Andrew

"Whereas with a 'live' cider, maybe the yeast and bacteria are still able
to metabolise slowly and to provide a reductive atmosphere. This would
help to conserve the SO2, I'd guess. On the other hand the microbial
metabolism would produce sulphite-binding carbonyls, so this might work
the other way. And once the yeast started to autolyse, more flavour
changes would take place. My subjective impression is that my sulphited
but naturally conditioned bottled cider does 'age' but not in the same
way that pasteurised bottle cider does. I don't detect the Maillard
reaction in those ciders. But I have never done a true like for like
comparison.
What do you think?"

It has been my assumption that the yeast doing the fermentation in the
bottle to produce the conditioning 'mops up' the available oxygen within the
bottle, whereas any oxygen in an artificially carbonated cider is still
present after carbonation. Maybe it's an incorrect assumption, but for
whatever reason, I have often been surprised how good a bottle conditioned
cider can be after 5, 6 and more years, whereaas any carbonated cider
whether pasteurised or not (including my own) seems to taste old relatively
sooner. Once again, caveat that this impression is not based on extensive
tastings.

[Andrew Lea]

On 29/01/2015 08:13, David Llewellyn wrote:

> Maybe it's an incorrect assumption, but for
> whatever reason, I have often been surprised how good a bottle conditioned
> cider can be after 5, 6 and more years, whereaas any carbonated cider
> whether pasteurised or not (including my own) seems to taste old relatively
> sooner. Once again, caveat that this impression is not based on extensive
> tastings.

I think most of us would agree with you. It comes into the category of
'received wisdom' but is none the less true for all that!

[David Llewellyn]

On 29/01/2015 08:13, David Llewellyn wrote:

> Maybe it's an incorrect assumption, but for
> whatever reason, I have often been surprised how good a bottle conditioned
> cider can be after 5, 6 and more years, whereaas any carbonated cider
> whether pasteurised or not (including my own) seems to taste old
relatively
> sooner. Once again, caveat that this impression is not based on extensive
> tastings.

Andrew: "I think most of us would agree with you. It comes into the category

of 'received wisdom' but is none the less true for all that!"

So, Andrew, just for clarity and to nail this on the head, while we're on
the subject:
Do you think it is factually correct to state that the in-bottle
fermentation mops up oxygen thereby prolonging the useful life of a cider
Versus 1) still cider and 2) artificially carbonated cider??
Or is the phenomenon too much of a mystery or too complicated to be able to
make that statement?

[Andrew Lea]

On 29/01/2015 08:49, David Llewellyn wrote:

> So, Andrew, just for clarity and to nail this on the head, while we're on
> the subject:
> Do you think it is factually correct to state that the in-bottle
> fermentation mops up oxygen thereby prolonging the useful life of a cider
> Versus 1) still cider and 2) artificially carbonated cider??
> Or is the phenomenon too much of a mystery or too complicated to be able to
> make that statement?

I don't think we have any actual data for ciders. There might be some
from the champagne industry - I haven't looked. But it is certainly
received wisdom in brewing for instance see this article from an
authoritative source which mentions the O2 scavenging effect of yeast in
bottle more than once https://www.ibd.org.uk/cms/file/308 So I think it
is a very likely hypothesis to explain the observed differences.

I don't think this will have any effect on the Maillard reaction though.
I think that may be more due to lack of sugar in the sort of dry bottle
conditioned ciders you are talking about. I have had long-stored keeved
ciders (2+ years) with high residual sugar which are naturally
conditioned and yet taste pretty cooked.

[Aron Horvath]

Is there anybody tried dimethyl carbonate? It is supposed to be very effective in killing all sorts of microorganisms, and it vanishes in a day or two, will not be detectable like sorbic acid. But a winemaker told me the dosage is very difficult, it needs a special equipment.

As for keeving, I am not sure about sticking to wild yeast is required, and cultured yeast addition ruins the process. I had success with adding some grains of champagne yeast after keev racking. The fermentation seems to be stopped at 5% of sugar.