thickness of glass bottle in relation to CO2 pressure

[jonypiana]

Hi, 

I'm scavenging used champagne bottles from a local resort/inn to use for making a champagne-like sparkling cider. I'm coming across other thick glassed wine bottles (especially some chardonnay bottles) that almost seem they could hold up the pressure of champagne.  I'm wondering if there is a test to know if a particular wine bottle is thick enough to not explode under champagne-like pressure. Of course such bottles would still be corked with the champagne corks and wire.

Also, 

I've asked this question a couple of times in this group still to no avail.  Can anyone recommend a champagne corker  for a small scale commercial/ large home-based cider operation? I'll be bottling mostly still ciders, but I want to be able to perform the ocassional sizeable bottling of sparkling cider.  

Currently, I have the hand held wine corker that you push down with both hands (v-shaped).  Can I just purchase a regular floor wine corker and make it work for champagne style bottling or do I need to get both?  Suggestions?

Cheers, 

jonny

[AndyinDevon]

Champagne bottles should weigh around 900 grams. Although some manufacturers have now reduced bottle weights to around 860grams to help reduce costs, amongst other things. The advice I would give, that was given to me, is only to use a bottle that previously contained either champagne or traditionally produced sparkling wine. Choose bottles that have been treated well and free from scratches. I don't mean to sound pedantic or unduly worry you but the pressure generated during the secondary fermentation demands the right bottle type. With a bit of effort you shouldn't have too much trouble locating the right sort.

In a nut shell no I wouldn't use the Chardonay bottles. I'm not even sure they'd have the appropriate lip on the neck for the cage to wind round.

Can't help with the corked I just use hollow plastic corks wired down. I do use one of those cheap champagne cage winders though which are actually really good.

[Dries Muylaert]

2013/1/28 jonypiana <jonp...@gmail.com>

Hi, 

I'm scavenging used champagne bottles from a local resort/inn to use for making a champagne-like sparkling cider. I'm coming across other thick glassed wine bottles (especially some chardonnay bottles) that almost seem they could hold up the pressure of champagne.  I'm wondering if there is a test to know if a particular wine bottle is thick enough to not explode under champagne-like pressure. Of course such bottles would still be corked with the champagne corks and wire.

 

To know what pressure a bottle can take, ask manufacturer. Second hand champagne bottles present a certain risk. Rough handling might cause micro cracks in the glass, invisible by naked eye but weakening the strength of the bottle.

You can close a champagne bottle with a crown cap. That is what often happens when the bottle needs to be degorged. A white plastic container ("bidule") is inserted in the neck, the crown cap goes on top, fermentation takes place and eventually the frozen bidule containing the yeast is shot out by removing the crown cap. I assure you, well placed a crown cap closes up and stands the pressure.

 

Also, 

I've asked this question a couple of times in this group still to no avail.  Can anyone recommend a champagne corker  for a small scale commercial/ large home-based cider operation? I'll be bottling mostly still ciders, but I want to be able to perform the ocassional sizeable bottling of sparkling cider.

You can bottle a sparkling cider, but it takes a lot of work (cooling). Why not re ferment the cider in the bottle? 

 

Currently, I have the hand held wine corker that you push down with both hands (v-shaped).  

 

If you want to work with champagne corks, you will probably need something heavier. Browse Brouwland. 

Can I just purchase a regular floor wine corker and make it work for champagne style bottling or do I need to get both?

Most "flour wine corkers" can be used for champagne corks. 

 Suggestions?

Cheers, 

jonny

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[Dick Dunn]

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 01:29:58PM -0800, jonypiana wrote:
> I'm scavenging used champagne bottles from a local resort/inn to use for
> making a champagne-like sparkling cider. I'm coming across other thick
> glassed wine bottles (especially some chardonnay bottles) that almost seem

> they could hold up the pressure of champagne...

Even if they would hold the pressure, the neck is a problem for two
reasons:

First, as "AndyinDevon" wrote, the finish (outside top of the neck) is
wrong for wiring down a stopper..there's not enough for the wire to hang on
to.

Second, in a sparkling wine bottle, the inside of the neck at the top is
tapered (significantly), whereas a still wine bottle is normally straight
sided for about the uppermost 4 cm. That means a lot less resistance to
the cork just pushing out under a little pressure. Consider, after you
un-wire a sparkling wine you normally still have to work the cork out.

>...I'm wondering if there is a

> test to know if a particular wine bottle is thick enough to not explode

> under champagne-like pressure...

Sure! Put a cider in it that's going to reach a high carbonation level.
As the cider carbonates in the bottle, if the bottle explodes, don't use
it.

(But if it doesn't explode, that's no assurance it's safe.)

Seriously: Use only bottles intended for sparkling wines. You can't tell
by the weight of the bottle alone; you need to know about the manufacture.
Since you can't find that out from scrounged bottles, what you do is gather
only bottles which were used for sparkling wine before--meaning that the
first user of the bottle ensured that they were suitable.

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[AndyinDevon]

Crown caps will take pressure without any problem but remember when your shopping for equipment you need a 29mm capper. Most beer bottles are 25mm and neither the cap or capper will work/fit a champagne bottle. You can buy cappers that have an interchangeable insert to do both sizes though.

Lastly, not all champagne bottles will accept crown caps, most will but not all. Mote and Chandon will accept crown caps. Just bear it in mind if you're furiously trying to cap a bottle and it doesn't work.

[jonypiana]

Thanks you guys for your support and wisdom. I like the idea of being able to use crown caps with the right capper for champagne bottles. I also recentlylearned about the neck clips that allow you to make any wine or beer bottle a flip/swing top. Its just a metal band that clips on the neck of the bottle that has a couple holes for the flip top cap to fit. However, I can't find a lot of sources for such hardware.  Anyone heard of the neck clips for adapting regular old bottles into flip top bottles?

[Tim]

http://www.bieresdumonde.fr/fr/materiel-amateur/2733-100-bouchons-mecaniques-avec-lamelles.html

 

Tim

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[Paul Brouwer]

I bought 100 of the flip tops and bands from Brouwland last year, they are Belgian I think. I don't know if there are different sizes for beer and champagne bottles!  For some reason, French companies did not respond even when a french speaking friend of mine emailed them - none of the French websites that I found had an English version but Brouwland does! 

The tops I bought fit the 100 champagne bottles that I scrounged from friends and local restaurants and pubs! I have subsequently produced some very nice sparkling cider and perry which I think is as nice as any I have bought!!

Cheers

Paul

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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:57:46 -0800
From: jonp...@gmail.com

To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] thickness of glass bottle in relation to CO2 pressure

Thanks you guys for your support and wisdom. I like the idea of being able to use crown caps with the right capper for champagne bottles. I also recentlylearned about the neck clips that allow you to make any wine or beer bottle a flip/swing top. Its just a metal band that clips on the neck of the bottle that has a couple holes for the flip top cap to fit. However, I can't find a lot of sources for such hardware.  Anyone heard of the neck clips for adapting regular old bottles into flip top bottles?

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:55:20 PM UTC-5, AndyinDevon wrote:

Crown caps will take pressure without any problem but remember when your shopping for equipment you need a 29mm capper. Most beer bottles are 25mm and neither the cap or capper will work/fit a champagne bottle. You can buy cappers that have an interchangeable insert to do both sizes though.Lastly, not all champagne bottles will accept crown caps, most will but not all. Mote and Chandon will accept crown caps. Just bear it in mind if you're furiously trying to cap a bottle and it doesn't work.

[Tim]

http://www.bieresdumonde.fr/fr/materiel-amateur/2733-100-bouchons-mecaniques-avec-lamelles.html

 

They despatched my order the same day, arrived within 48 hours, great service, great product.

 

Tim

[jonypiana]

Hi Tim, 

Unfortunately I live in Vermont, USA. I emailed them, and they said that they don't ship outside of Europe.  Any other ideas of how to source these?  I was wondering if the neck clips could be made by getting metal strips from somewhere like a hardware store or something and then poking holes in them. Then I could just buy regular flip top caps. Any Ideas?