Potassium Metabisulfite changing juice color

[William Grote]

Just wanted to share an interesting photo.  Added 80 ppm K-Meta to half of some crab apple juice and let the other half without, next day...what a massive color change.  I knew this occurred but had no idea it would be this drastic.  So much for the nice rose....

[Dick Dunn]

The color loss isn't surprising, actually. Did you really need that much
of a dose of KMS? I'd expect a crabapple juice to be very low in pH.

I've seen the same thing with juice of Redfield--a red-fleshed US apple.
It's a bit of a trick to get the sulfite dosage right, meaning high enough
to protect the color but not so high as to bleach it. Andrew gave me some
tips a few years ago.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[William Grote]

Hi Dick

similar thing happened to my Redfield batch last year, but not as drastic, and I have a few Niedswetzkyana that I planted which I hope to keep red when they eventually yield some apples

What doses are you finding keep the color, or at least affect it less?

Thanks

• Niedswetzkyana

[Wes Cherry]

I managed to keep my Redfield cider a nice dark rosé color via extreme care to limit oxygen exposure by pressing as fast as possible and getting the juice to containers asap.   

 I dosed with a very light amount of sulfites (10-25% of normal iirc. I don't have my records here).    Another light dose of ~20 ppm preceded bottling.

This year I plan on washing the apples in a sanitizer solution before pressing to reduce microbial load somewhat and allow lower sulfite doses.

I have seen white wine makers flood the press area with CO2 to limit oxygen exposure.  Maybe some dry ice chunks in the press pan would help.

Unfortunately all this reductive cidermaking makes for wound up tannins.   Letting it breath before serving helps.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Wes Cherry]

Micro-ox after fermentation may also aid in color retention.   

See:

http://www.apps.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/downloads/wm_issues/Microoxygenation/Micro-Ox%20-%20Section%203.pdf

Micro-ox rigs are several thousand dollars.  The same can be achieved in a less controlled way with oxygen permeable plastic containers (or barrels) in early aging.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

[Dick Dunn]

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 07:28:55AM -0700, William Grote wrote:
...

> similar thing happened to my Redfield batch last year, but not as drastic,
> and I have a few Niedswetzkyana that I planted which I hope to keep red
> when they eventually yield some apples
>
> What doses are you finding keep the color, or at least affect it less?

On last year's Redfield, pH was about 3.25. I used 35 ppm SO2. Other than
that, Wes Cherry's followups on your thread have good thinking and info.

[Mike Lachelt]

Hi William,

How long after pressing the juice did you add the sulfite? I know that if it is added too quickly after pressing, it can prevent colour development. Did your sulfite addition change the colour, or did it prevent it from arising in the first place?

Mike

[William Grote]

Ive heard that from a number of sources, so tonight I will oxygenate a bit with my old wand from beer brewing days, I have a little O2 left in a tank somewhere in the cellar, all in the name of science :-)

[Wes Cherry]

It is not really possible to do micro ox properly with manual dosing.

The proper amount (for red wines which need more o2 than cider) is in the range of 1 to 10 mL/liter per month, initiated and run for 1 to ~8 months after ferment finishes.  This should be trickled out over that period.   Any faster and you'll just create acetaldehyde.

Making a micro ox rig using a surplus mass flow sensor ($50ish on eBay) is on my project list.

But as it is, I get similar results by leaving cider in ibcs post ferment for one to three months before moving it to stainless.   

From this, 

http://www.ipacksystems.com/downloads/Schutz_EVOH.pdf

o2 permeability of a regular HDPE ibc is 29 ml/day, which works out to 0.83 ml/L per month (if I did my calcs correctly), which is also approx the o2 permeability of a barrel.

More on micro ox here:

http://www.micro-ox.com/oxbox_brochure.pdf

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

I also obtained red fleshed apple (of an unknown la rippening variety).

So just to recapitulate, the best way to preserve the color of the juice is to :

1) add no (or a low dose of) sulfite as it might bound to the anthocyanines of the juice;

2) Press the pulp as fast as possible to limit oxydation (which is quite hard as the whole process of pressing involve aquite a lot of oxydation);

3) Not expose it to light.

Is there other parameters to monitor?

Also, did somebody test the minimal amount of red fleshed apple juice to blend with normal juices to obtain a nice red colored cider? The initial testing I did on this juice indicate it would be a good idea to blend it (O.G. 1,040; TA .063%)

Louis

[CiderSupply.com]

Wes I was thinking about doing the same thing for the same reason. another thing cross my mind was instead of washing really well which I would do anyway if I did a quick scold on the exteriors of the apple or quick dip in very hot water to kill off bacterium. You think that's a viable option

Best regards,
Chris Rylands

[Wes Cherry]

I’d think to get sufficient pasteurization units to do any good you would cook the apples.

-Wes

> --
> --
> Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
> By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

> To post to this group, send an email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[CiderSupply.com]

Thanks Wes think I'll start a thread and see what the reviews are also, but have you ever heard of anyone blanching their apples or pears before pressing.