Planting distances (MM111 / MM106)

[chels...@gmail.com]

I am planning on planting some new trees in the Autumn. I'm in SW UK.

I have a lot of grafts that have taken on MM111 and I have been looking into optimising my space. (I also have a few on 106)

I've found largely varying and contradicting guides for planting distances between trees. For example, RHS recommends 4.5m for MM111, other sources state 6m and then at the other end of the scale I've seen recommendations as low as 3m. Then I guess there's vigour to consider on top of that.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has planted MM111 or MM106 - what distances they used and what their opinion is with the benefit of hindsight many years down the line.

Cheers!

[Chris Hoerichs]

Your statement regarding vigor is a, if not the, critical component.  A high vigor/large scion matched to M111 which is considered a relatively high vigor/limited dwarfing rootstock creates a very different tree from a naturally small/low vigor scion on the same M111.  The scion does make the difference and if you’re trying to really maximize your space can be adjusted accordingly.  

Chris

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[James Littleton]

Hi Chelston, 

I have planted vigorous MM106s 5 metres apart within a row and have allowed 7m between each row. For less vigorous varieties like Dabinett i have opted for 4.5m between each tree. For M111s, i have gone for 5.5 metres between each tree. 

I also read guidance suggesting 3.5m between trees on MM106 rootstock but this seems too close for me and risks (in my opinion) a lack of air and sunlight as the trees grow. 

Hope this helps. 

Cheers, 

James

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[Duncan Hewitt]

Hi Chelston,

Just to back up James - I planted a quarter acre of both rootstocks, not far off James' numbers - MM106 at 12ft (4m) spacing, 15ft (5m) between rows, and MM111 at 15ft (5m spacing) with 18ft (6m) between rows, and the MM106 are too crowded. I have some cultivars that seem as vigorous as the MM111, although I appreciate they're quicker growers. They are now 13 years old and I wish I had planted them at the same distance as the MM111. Only a couple of MM111 could have done with more space - namely Rival and Hoary Morning. Luckily they're both on the end of a row.

Good luck,

Duncan

For the record, the MM111 were pruned as half-standard, lowest shoots 1.2m from the ground, MM106 were bush, at 0.9m from the ground. All goblet shaped as it's not primarliy a cider orchard, so that might have made a difference.

This is south Derbyshire.

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[chels...@gmail.com]

Thanks guys, that information is really useful. I think what I might do then is go for 5m spacing all round with the more vigorous varieties placed on the end of rows.

The RHS recommendations do seem to be on the close side after reading your experiences.

Cheers all!

Sam

[David Pickering]

Hi Chelston,

In effect you’ve probably got your answer but some extra info might be handy as background for others wanting to plant cider trees.

The subject came up in 2021 and the issue is the relationship between the rootstock and the scion since each has its own vigour characteristics. The relative vigour of rootstocks is well documented eg https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/horticulture/pomes/apples/rootstock

Not so well documented is the vigour of the various cider cultivars. The listing below is based on my orchard and quotes subjective assessment of relative vigour with all cultivars being on MM106.

“LARGE”	Improved Foxwhelp
	Somerset Redstreak
	Breakwells Seedling
“INTERMEDIATE”	Sweet Alford
	Blanchet
	Antoinette
	Cimetiere de Blangy
“MEDIUM”	Frequin Rouge
	Yarlington Mill
	Bulmers Norman
	Dabinett
	Sweet Coppin
	Browns Apple
	Kingston Black
	Michelin
	Dabinett
	Brown Snout
	Tremletts Bitter
“SMALL”	Stoke Red
	Reine de Hatives
	de Boutteville

It is not possible to predict actual tree size. The variables of soil, irrigation, management inputs, tree form, row orientation, slope (plus rootstock and scion) etc etc combine to give a tree of a particular size and shape.Trees trained to central leader occupy more square metres per tree than a palmette form. An orchard that is to be mechanically harvested probably requires wider row spacing to allow equipment passage even though the tree size is not directly affected. Trees being mechanically managed and harvested will probably be allowed to grow taller than those being managed manually.

If you have a tree on site with known management (or a neighbour has!) with known rootstock and known scion then that is your best guide cum starting point regarding size. From that you can work towards bigger or smaller trees by adjusting the rootstock and scion combination to get the tree size you want. In theory with judicious balancing you could probably create an orchard with all the different cultivars finishing up the same size.

So no definitive answer re planting distances but things to think about when an orchard is being planned.

Cheers - David

[Andrew Lea]

That’s very useful data from David, as always.

Seen from an Oxfordshire UK perspective, I would add Crimson King into the Large or Intermediate Category.  I’d also demote Dabinett from Medium to Small. But YMMV.

Something that hasn’t come up yet in this discussion is an initial planting at close spacing in a quincunx formation.  Then ten to twenty years later, you thin it out to a square planting plan, to give the remaining trees space to spread.  In the interim you still get useful crops from the young trees. This used to be done quite commonly in the UK in the 1940s and 50s I think.  Times change, but still worth a thought?

Andrew

www.cider.org.uk

On 15 Jul 2023, at 08:55, David Pickering <dav...@cideroz.com> wrote:

Hi Chelston,

In effect you’ve probably got your answer but some extra info might be handy as background for others wanting to plant cider trees.

The subject came up in 2021 and the issue is the relationship between the rootstock and the scion since each has its own vigour characteristics. The relative vigour of rootstocks is well documented eg https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/horticulture/pomes/apples/rootstock

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[chels...@gmail.com]

David - that is very very useful information many thanks for sharing. 

What would be really good is if growers could pull more of this kind of information together and expand on this. I have some grafts not on David's list that I'd be very interested to hear about people's experiences regarding vigour:

- Chisel Jersey

- Red Jersey

- Gin

- Pennards

- White Close Pippin

- Joeby

- Killerton Sweet

- Royal Somerset

- Cremiere

- Tan Harvey

- Black Vallis

Regarding Andrew's observation on quincunx, it is something that I have considered (perhaps using spare grafts / multiples of the same variety). If I end up planting in this formation I'll let you all know how I get on.

All the best,

Sam

[Duncan Hewitt]

Great idea. I have Yarlington Mill and Tremlett's Bitter which I note are 'medium' in David's list. I have a Slack Ma Girdle also of the same age which I can compare in size - I suspect it's larger.

My Medaille d'Or on MM111 has come out much smaller than other trees on MM111 (Dabinett for example).

Of course - there's always the possibility that suppliers have used the wrong roostock - I have an Elton Beauty on "MM106" that is no more than 5' tall, and what I believe to be a Rival that was bought as a "Harvey" from Keepers Nursery. After 7 years of growing I finally figured something was wrong and called them. "Oh yes, 'the False Harvey'. We did have some that went out". Great way to admit you sold the wrong tree, and useless to someone selling the apples without a name to put to it.

Duncan

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