Second pressing
normal for norfolk
desset with a SG 1050, don't know the ph as I have run out of test
papers.
I decided to make a lower alcohol cider by performing a second
pressing by soaking the pulp overnight and then pressing it again
today. I have made two five gallon containers with a SG of 1026, which
I can calculate the sugar to be added to make a 5% cider. Do I need to
add any malic acid or yeast nutrients. I was going to add a packet of
Youngs cider yeast to each barrell. Any ideas to ensure it is not too
insipid or do I put it down the sink now? People round here seem wary
of 7 to 8% cider.
Claude Jolicoeur
> Yesterday I did a pressing of apples from cold store 50% bramley 50%
> desset with a SG 1050, don't know the ph as I have run out of test
> papers.
> I decided to make a lower alcohol cider by performing a second
> pressing by soaking the pulp overnight and then pressing it again
> today. I have made two five gallon containers with a SG of 1026, which
> I can calculate the sugar to be added to make a 5% cider.
I always wonder why people add water to the pomace before making a
second pressing....
Making a second pressing of the pomace without rehydrating makes more
sense in my opinion. I get the same amount of stuff, but undiluted! I
prefer to get a few gallons of full strength juice than the same
amount of juice mixed with water...
A simple example, assuming I have a certain quantity of pomace that
still contain 1 gallon of extractable juice.
Mixing it with 1 gallon of water will yield 2 gallons of diluted juice
at half the SG of the original pressing. But repressing it without
rehydrating will yield 1 gallon of full strenth juice....
Claude
GREG DAVIES
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 05:26:38 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Second pressing
> From: russel...@mac.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.
>
Get a new e-mail account with Hotmail - Free. Sign-up now.
Andrew Lea
in the same way re-extracted mash grains are the basis of 'small beer'.
Small cider at low alcohol was given to children and ladies.
In my opinion re-wetting and second pressing is worth doing if you have
a low efficiency press (say < 70%) and I used to do it often when I had
such a press. But I never made cider from it on its own. I added it back
to the main pressing to increase the volume without greatly reducing the
gravity.
If you want to dilute a cider to lower the alcohol level probably the
best place to do that is after the fermentation has finished. You can
cut with water to about 85% without anyone noticing the flavour loss
very much. That way a 6.5% ABV can drop to 5.5% ABV and still be pretty
palatable. More dilution than that and quality will suffer.
Andrew
Claude Jolicoeur
> In my opinion re-wetting and second pressing is worth doing if you have
> a low efficiency press (say < 70%) and I used to do it often when I had
> such a press.
Andrew, I agree it is pretty useless to make a second pressing with a
high efficiency press. It is just I don't see the point in re-wetting.
Just breaking the pomace, letting it stay a few hours, and repressing
it is OK and will let you recover the juice that may be recovered.
I used to add water to the pomace in the beginning, until I found it
was completely useless and was only diluting the juice.
Claude
Andrew Lea
Well I'm not quite so sure. I imagine that with a low efficiency mill
and press, there is juice locked up in the interior of pulp particles
which never ever gets released. If you wet it and leave it overnight,
the cells rupture (osmosis) and the sugar flows out. Then when you
re-press, you get more sugar (in somewhat dilute solution, admittedly).
That's always been my rationalisation anyway.
But I must admit I don't have any figures from a proper trial. Maybe I'm
deluding myself [not difficult ;-) ] Maybe leaving it for a while
breaks down the cell structure spontaneously by natural enzyme action
anyway....
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
Roy Bailey
writes
>Second pressings are very traditional and are the basis of 'small
>cider' in the same way re-extracted mash grains are the basis of 'small
>beer'. Small cider at low alcohol was given to children and ladies.
>
>In my opinion re-wetting and second pressing is worth doing if you have
>a low efficiency press (say < 70%) and I used to do it often when I had
>such a press.
I did this last year on three occasions. The first pressing came out at
about 1057, so I added a modicum of water to the pomace and left it
overnight. I can't say how much water I added but the pomace was by no
means sloppy. My records show that one pressing producing nearly 10
gallons of juice was watered with about 4 gallons of water and produced
6 gallons at a gravity of 1042. Some of the other pressings produced a
lower extract but the final result was 11 gallons at 1040.
>But I never made cider from it on its own. I added it back to the main
>pressing to increase the volume without greatly reducing the gravity.
>
I fermented mine separately and considered adding it back to the
stronger cider but it tasted so good I have kept it as a separate batch.
It is much lighter in colour, with a sharp lemony taste. We tried it on
some friend as a 'cidre noveau' about a month after pressing and they
enjoyed it very much.
As you say, this is a traditional process, and I believe it was produced
for farm workers to drink when working in the fields in summer. My
friend Dereck Hartland refers to it as "haymakers' cider".
Interesting, Claude, that you suggest watering is a waste of time.
Andrew told me that the addition of water breaks down the cells
overnight and releases more juice.
I think it is a worthwhile process if you have the time and energy.
Roy.
--
Roy Bailey - Proprietor
The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
<www.lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
Claude Jolicoeur
> Interesting, Claude, that you suggest watering is a waste of time.
> Andrew told me that the addition of water breaks down the cells
> overnight and releases more juice.
I did the test once many years ago, from a batch of pomace, split in 2
equal parts, add some water to one of the 2 parts, and press both next
day.
From the non-watered batch, I got some full strenght juice, and from
the watered batch, I got essentially a mixture of the same amount of
juice mixed with the amount of water I had added.
OK, this was done without precise measurements, so it is
approximative. But it certainly convinced me that there is no real
gain in adding water, as I much prefer to get a smaller quantity of
undiluted juice. I guess Andrew's hypothesis sounds reasonable:
>Maybe leaving it for a while breaks down the cell
>structure spontaneously by natural enzyme action anyway....
For my part, with a press that give about 60% yield, I usually get an
extra 20% of full strenth juice from the second pressing, effectively
increasing the yield from 60% to 72%.
Claude
Andrew Lea
> Roy Bailey wrote:
>> Interesting, Claude, that you suggest watering is a waste of time.
>> Andrew told me that the addition of water breaks down the cells
>> overnight and releases more juice.
>
> I did the test once many years ago, from a batch of pomace, split in 2
> equal parts, add some water to one of the 2 parts, and press both next
> day.
>
>>From the non-watered batch, I got some full strenght juice, and from
> the watered batch, I got essentially a mixture of the same amount of
> juice mixed with the amount of water I had added.
Claude is an engineer and he has the figures to prove his case! I shan't
quibble with that :-)
normal for norfolk
i am using a vigo rack and cloth press which gives about 60%.
As my juice is at 1050 which will make a 6.5 cider. I will try Andrews
idea of mixing the 2nd pressing to the 1st
I have 210 liters at 1050 And 50 liters at 1026
The target was for a 5.5% about 1043 start do you know what the SG
will be if i add the to pressing together.
If i mix 400ml to 100ml and test would this give me the above answer ?
Thanks again i find this a very helpful and interesting site
Russell
Andrew Lea
> Thank you for the feed back
>
> i am using a vigo rack and cloth press which gives about 60%.
>
> As my juice is at 1050 which will make a 6.5 cider. I will try Andrews
> idea of mixing the 2nd pressing to the 1st
> I have 210 liters at 1050 And 50 liters at 1026
> The target was for a 5.5% about 1043 start do you know what the SG
> will be if i add the to pressing together.
You can use Claude's Cider Blending Wizard
http://www.ciderworkshop.com/claudeswizard.html to calculate the answer.
(Or a Pearson Blending Square - google it)
Claude's Wizard gives 260 litres at SG 1.045. So you are there! (The
last 2 points make no real difference).
Claude Jolicoeur
> Claude is an engineer and he has the figures to prove his case! I shan't
> quibble with that :-)
Well, Andrew and I are both scientists and we both know that one
experimental point is not sufficient to make a definitive
conclusion...
So I would suggest that others make the same type of test I did on
their future pressings - maybe with sufficient experimental data we
could find that there is a slight advantage in adding water, or maybe
not... For sure I think the advantage (if any) of adding water would
be very slight. Such testing could maybe also permit to figure an
optimum amount of water to add (in litres per kg of pomace for
example).
Looking at Russell's numbers:
>I have 210 liters at 1050 And 50 liters at 1026
the 50 litres at 1026 contain the same amount of sugar as 26 litres at
1050, so he actually got an extra 12,4% of extraction from his second
pressing... this is a bit less than what I usually get without adding
water. But again, this is not enough evidence - many other factors may
have an effect, like how long a pressing Russell did.
I guess, Russell, you probably added about 24 litres of water to your
pomace?
Claude
normal for norfolk
I made 3 pressing today i must say the third seemed stronger but i did
not test each pressing.
But interesting you mention speed as i took more time over the third
also the juice was far cleaner.
Now i wish i had made proper measurement only done the second
pressing, with water because the apple cost a lot from cold store.
The reason for buying them was i have 200 liters made from dessert
apples only and i wanted something with more acid to blend with them .
Cheers
Russell
