Grosielle and Delaplace cider apples

[C D-T]

There are 2 other cider apples that are proving elusive - Grosielle and Delaplace. They are available to buy in Australia, but I can't seem to find out much about them.

Grosielle: Flavour type: Sharp, Fruit description: Green with red flush. Chilling requirements? Synonyms? Ripening time? History?

Delaplace: Flavour type: Sweet, Fruit description: Pale yellow bloom on dark red-maroon skin. Good for eating fresh.
Blossom time: mid season, Flowering group: 3. Ripening time? History and provenance? Flavour? Other uses?

All reliable data gratefully accepted.
Cheers,
C

[Claude Jolicoeur]

C D-T wrote:

There are 2 other cider apples that are proving elusive - Grosielle and Delaplace.

Groseille (note spelling, I assume you have a typing error) and Delaplace are both described in Boré and Fleckinger's "Pommiers à cidre, variétés de France", which provides photos and quite technical descriptions, but not much comments.

Delaplace is from the Eure department in Brittany, mid-season ripening, fruit variable in size, yellow with a bit of red, bitter and sweet.

Groseille is from Normandy, mid to late ripening season, big fruit, yellow with red cheeks, yellow flesh, "acidulée" which means slightly acidic. Juise analysis is given: SG 1.057, TA 5.8 g/L malic, tannin 1.24 g/L - which would put this variety in the sharp category.

As of Frequin rouge amer - there are so many Frequin rouge, and some Frequin amer... I have counted more than 40 varieties that have the word "Frequin" in Bore and Fleckinger's book! It could be almost any of them, with the name slightly modified in Australia.

Note also that French descriptions and comments may not be relevant for Australia-grown fruit as the climate may change many things, including the ripening season, the sugar, acidity and tannin content, and so on. Not to mention the real possibility that what you have under a certain name in Australia may not be the true variety really (we have this for a few varieties in North America, for example the apple known as Foxwhelp here is not at all a Foxwhelp). You should try to obtain data from people that have grown them in Australia...

Claude
P.S. - tell us what C stands for... I like to know the name of people I write to!

[C D-T]

Bonjour Claude,

Merci beaucoup pour votre réponse. Il est bon d'avoir les descriptions des Groseille (l'orthographe est correcte cette fois) et Delaplace. L'arboriculteur fruitier dont la pousse ces cultivars ici en Australie ne les laissez pas fruit. Il grandit entre eux seulement de vendre les arbres. Par conséquent, je vais devoir faire pousser jusqu'au stade de fructification moi-même, afin de les décrire.
Je mets ensemble une brochure sur les pommes à cidre en Australie et je suis en train de faire mes informations aussi précises que possible.
Meilleurs voeux,
Cecilia

PS veuillez excuser mon mauvais français.

[Dick Dunn]

�Podemos decir que la lengua �nica para comunicar en el <<Taller>>
de la Sidra es ingl�s?

Ich glaube, es ist viel besser wenn wir nur eine Sprache haben f�r
missverstehen! Wissen Sie, Claude hat ein gesamtes Buch auf Englisch
geschrieben?
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Cecilia,
Thanks for your effort in writing French, but as Dick mentions, it is probably better to stick with English in this forum... You can always write me off-list in French!

I would be interested in seeing this brochure you are doing about the cider varieties grown in Australia, when it is complete!

Claude

[David Pickering]

Re the discussion on these two varieties and Frequin Rouge.

I have copied below the relevant section from a webpage I wrote while working for the NSW DPI.

The full page can be seen at this address:

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/horticulture/pomes/additional-cider-varieties

The webpage was published after the "re-discovered" material had been grafted and brought to fruiting, then investigated with overseas publications and personal contacts. When there was a reasonable degree of certainty that the variety was true-to-type it was publicised via this webpage. There are still a number of varieties that by name are ciders but which have not or cannot be proven to be true-to-type.

The Delaplace material was sourced privately in Victoria.

The Groseille material - and the Frequin Rouge - was sourced from the "Grove" collection (what used to be the Tasmanian Dept of Agriculture).

As will be seen, the Groseille and Delaplace do not appear because they are still not yet confirmed.

Variety naming

A number of the newly “re-discovered” cider varieties have for one reason or another had their names slightly misspelled or otherwise corrupted during importation or since.

The names used in the following list are the original names used in the country of origin. If there is an alternative name in common usage in Australia, then that name appears in brackets following the original.

This protocol has been decided for three reasons:

1. So that Australian names conform to the country of origin.
2. So that prospective growers can do their own research using the name in the country of origin.
3. In case there are already growers of these apples under the name which has been used up until now.
   

Antoinette
Bedan (Bedon)
Belle Cauchoise (Belle Cacheuse)
Blanchet (Blanche)
Chataignier
Cimetiere de Blangy (Cimetiere du Pays)
Clozette (Closette)
Cremiere
De Boutteville (De Bouteville)
French Crab
* Frequin Rouge (Frequin Rouge Amer)
Pomeroy of Somerset (Taunton)
Rousse Latour (Rous Latour)
Sugar Loaf Pippin
Verite

* Frequin Rouge is a French cider variety but there are various versions of it currently being used in France. We are not in a position to say which of the versions we have in Australia but it is reasonably safe to assume that Australia has only one version.

As Claude said:

As of Frequin rouge amer - there are so many Frequin rouge, and some 
Frequin amer... I have counted more than 40 varieties that have the word 
"Frequin" in Bore and Fleckinger's book! It could be almost any of them, 
with the name slightly modified in Australia.

It was for this reason that Frequin Rouge was listed with the asterisk and note.

I'd also like to know the translation of "frequin".

For the people who are looking for and at cider varieties in Australia there are two extra varieties that have been confirmed.

Eggleton Styre was re-exported from Grove in Tasmania to England but since that was done I have been able to locate original trees in the UK and the owner/grower has confirmed that the Australian material is true-to-type.

Tardive de la Sarthe is also in Australia and has good provenance. Tardive de la Sarthe is listed in Bore & Fleckinger with a synonym of Frequin Tardif de la Sarthe. Again the "frequin" word!

These two bring the confirmed varieties to 32.

If people are chasing scion wood for grafting it is getting late in the season but you may still be able to get it from either Grove or the NSW DPI at Orange. If you strike out there for whatever reason then I can supply limited quantities but it will depend what state you live in as to whether I can supply it to you.

Cheers - David

David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800

http://www.cideroz.com/

http://www.cideraustralia.org.au/

dav...@cideroz.com

mobile: 042 727 1477

home: 02 6365 5275

.

[greg l.]

On a side note, I was very impressed that google offers to translate posts, at least using chrome. The translation seemed quite good, it even worked with Dick's post but was a bit confused by the variety of languages.

Greg

[Claude Jolicoeur]

David Pickering wrote:

I'd also like to know the translation of "frequin".

David, I have looked at the origin of this word and never found what it means.
In the old French literature, we find many variants of this name, including: Freschin, Friquet, Fraisquin, Fréquet, Frétien, Fréchin... It could simply come from the name of somebody and not have any particular meaning...

And by the way, this work that was done on the varieties existing in Australia, which you were refering to, is there still some work done on this?

Claude

[David Pickering]

Claude asked:

And by the way, this work that was done on the varieties existing in 
Australia, which you were refering to, is there still some work done on 
this?

Perhaps I should preface my reply by saying that I started working on cider apples in the sense of cider apples that were known as cider types in the UK and France (and Spain, but I've not yet found any listings of Spanish cider varieties in Australia). There are various apples from which people have produced and successfully marketed ciders in Australia and this is an area for future exploration. Recent discussion on King David in the US is an example of keeping an open mind.

Please also bear in mind that often the name of the apple variety found can have slightly different spelling etc whether through errors in transcribing or use of synonyms.

With that caveat, the varieties that are nominally cider but which have yet to be confirmed to be true-to-type are:

Galopina (Galopin?)

Daux Amer Gris (Doux Amer Gris?)

Bedon des Partes (Bedan des Parts?)

Normandie Rouge

Grosseille

Martin Frossard (Martin Fessard?)

General (Muriel Smith has this as a synonym for Calville Rouge d'Hiver)

Red Cluster

De le Place (Deleplace?)

Possum/Pound (Court Royal?)

Jaunet

The work is continuing but there have been few varieties confirmed in recent times. This is not to say the material in Australia is incorrect, just that it hasn't been possible to confirm it. Conversely, even if the variety is not confirmed, it may still have merit as a cider apple but preferably not using the quoted name.

David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800

[Claude Jolicoeur]

David and Cecilia,
I find it very interesting to see you have so many French varieties in Australia. Here in N.America, we have few French and proportionally a much greater number of English cider varieties. I wonder why that is, I would think there would be more natural exchanges between you and UK than with France.
Also, transporting a variety from one hemisphere to the other must be a challenge, because the wood needs to be kept dormant during 9 months rather than about 3 months when within the same hemisphere. Would the scion wood be frozen for this?
Claude

Le mercredi 28 août 2013 06:34:15 UTC-4, David Pickering a écrit :

Please also bear in mind that often the name of the apple variety found can have slightly different spelling etc whether through errors in transcribing or use of synonyms.

With that caveat, the varieties that are nominally cider but which have yet to be confirmed to be true-to-type are: [rest snipped...]

[David Pickering]

Claude wrote

I find it very interesting to see you have so many French varieties in 
Australia. Here in N.America, we have few French and proportionally a much 
greater number of English cider varieties. I wonder why that is, I would 
think there would be more natural exchanges between you and UK than with 
France.

Given Australia's "colonial" history I completely agree that the UK-Australia connection would seem much more likely than France-Australia. So why there should turn out to be this number of French cider cultivars is a mystery. The Grove (ex Tas DPI) collection is an amalgamation of the historical apple and pear collections from around Australia but I've been unable to access any importation records to clarify whether the assorted French cultivars came in a group or just accumulated over the years. Tasmania - which was and is known in Oz as the "Apple Isle" - retained a cider industry when the industry languished on the mainland. So it may well be that the importations were made to bring diversity to the available types or to test suitability to local conditions. Whatever the reason was, it was a nice little treasure trove to unearth.

and again

Also, transporting a variety from one hemisphere to the other must be a 
challenge, because the wood needs to be kept dormant during 9 months rather 
than about 3 months when within the same hemisphere. Would the scion wood 
be frozen for this?

It's difficult to answer this. Nowadays it's relatively easy (airfreight etc, tissue culture) but in years past it would have taken a long time and would have meant spending time in the tropics during transit. Presumably the importations that took place in the years up to relatively recent times (1900?) would not have been subject to the same level of bio-security that prevails now. So plants (e.g. apple trees) imported in pots of soil would presumably have been acceptable in those days.

Either way, you'd have to think that there were some confused plants or scion wood arriving on our shores wondering what season it was or which way the season was heading.

As an aside and in relation to the dormancy issue. I've been collecting apple and pear scion wood from isolated farmhouses in the hope of finding undocumented trees from pre-biosecurity days. It's a dilemma that in going to isolated sites you need to go in the fruiting season to see what the trees are like. This is not a good time to be getting scion wood, but distances being what they are it's expensive to duplicate the trips. My technique has become whip-and-toungue grafts of de-leafed but otherwise active summer/autumn scion wood onto rootstocks or existing trees and these generally become active in the following spring. This may be the technique that was used in years past when bud wood was cut from trees in the northern hemisphere in say April or May and shipped to the southern hemisphere for grafting on arrival some months later. The material would have been dormant here and my experience has shown it probably would work.

[Andrew Lea]

On 02/09/2013 00:17, David Pickering wrote:
>
>
> Tasmania - which was and is known in Oz as
> the "Apple Isle" - retained a cider industry when the industry
> languished on the mainland. So it may well be that the importations were
> made to bring diversity to the available types or to test suitability to
> local conditions.

Just a thought - around 50 years ago Bulmers (UK) were growing cider
apples in Tasmania for their Australian business. The Bulmer orcharding
people had / have a history of innovation in looking for new cider
cultivars, especially when the business was still family-controlled. It
is entirely possible that they might have been responsible for importing
a number of French cider apples into Tasmania just to see how well they
grew there compared to the UK varieties.

Andrew


--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[C D-T]

David, I too have been collecting unnamed apples. The ones I've been focussing on are very unlikely to be heritage cultivars, because they are wild roadside trees - (apples, plums, cherry-plums and sometimes peaches) - the kind that decorate the byways of country Victoria (particularly Gippsland) with their beautiful blossom every year in August/September. This valuable source of genetic diversity is not just undervalued by local councils, it is even viewed as a nuisance. For example I had my eye on some interesting apple trees in Daylesford township, but when I went back to gather scion wood in winter, the council had 'tidied them up' with chainsaws and there were only stumps left. So now, in February/March when wild roadside trees are fruiting, I go for a road-trip, stop at every likely-looking tree and taste the fruit, then if it's outstanding, I cut budwood. Budding has been reasonably successful for me as an autumn grafting method. 
Word of mouth also helps. The locals always know which wild trees have the best fruit, which saves some time!
By the way David, I'm told there is a gigantic wild orchard of apple trees in the Wonnangatta Valley, around the ruins of an old homestead, built in the 1800s.

Claude, may I request a cider apple name translation? 'Belle Fille de la Manche' - does it mean 'Beautiful Girl of the Arm' or 'Beautiful Girl of the English Channel', or something else entirely?

Cecilia

On Sunday, August 25, 2013 7:13:33 PM UTC+10, C D-T wrote:

[C D-T]

PS Claude wrote: 'Also, transporting a variety from one hemisphere to the other must be a challenge, because the wood needs to be kept dormant during 9 months rather than about 3 months when within the same hemisphere.'
I wonder if they might have brought potted trees on board the sailing ships like this:: if they left Europe in summer, it would probably be summer when they arrived in Australia because way back then, the trip took several months.  Deciduous trees can handle being in leaf for 12 months.  Apparently trees can endure one or two years without dormancy, but any longer than that and they die. On the other hand, having potted apple trees on deck during sea-storms would not have been a great idea either, with waves washing over everything...

Cecilia

[greg l.]

I don't know if they have QLD fruit fly problems in Victoria but that is the reason council clears roadside trees here in NSW - any fallen fruit could breed more flies. Any roadside trees only remain because of council inaction. I have some trees in an abandoned orchard on my farm, one turned out to be peasgood nonesuch.

Greg

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Cecilia wrote:

I wonder if they might have brought potted trees on board the sailing ships like this:: if they left Europe in summer, it would probably be summer when they arrived in Australia because way back then, the trip took several months.  Deciduous trees can handle being in leaf for 12 months.  Apparently trees can endure one or two years without dormancy, but any longer than that and they die. On the other hand, having potted apple trees on deck during sea-storms would not have been a great idea either, with waves washing over everything...

My impression is that in the times of sailboats, it was more often pips that were imported, trees were grown on the new land and the best were kept. Most variety imports (at least in N.America) took place in late 19th and 20th centuries when boats were faster... Actually, in Canada, many English cider varieties were imported during the 1960s by Agriculture Canada and evaluated in some state experimental farms.

As of Belle fille de la Manche, "Belle fille" may mean either beautiful girl of daughter in law; Manche certainly is for the Channel - there is a French region called Manche, facing England. There are quite a few "Belle fille" apples in France, from different regions.

Claude

[C D-T]

Thank you for the translation, Claude.
I was thinking the trees could not have been started from pips because so many of our apples match the overseas ones with the same names. For example, after quite a few heritage apples were lost to fire blight in the UK, Bernwode Fruit Trees searched the world and located some with specific names growing in Tasmania. They imported scion to England and when the grafted trees fruited they were found to match the description, fortunately!
(PS have you had time to look at the rough draft?)

Greg I, you wrote <I don't know if they have QLD fruit fly problems in Victoria...>Up till this very week I would have guaranteed there were no fruit flies in Victoria, but a few days ago a fellow-Victorian on another forum mentioned that they have been seen in some Melbourne suburbs. I've never seen fruit flies myself, and I've lived in Victoria all my life. I hope them pesky varmints don't decide to live south of the border - we have enough trouble with woolly aphids!

Cecilia

[Andrew Lea]

On 02/09/2013 10:18, Andrew Lea wrote:
>
> Just a thought - around 50 years ago Bulmers (UK) were growing cider
> apples in Tasmania for their Australian business. The Bulmer orcharding
> people had / have a history of innovation in looking for new cider
> cultivars, especially when the business was still family-controlled. It
> is entirely possible that they might have been responsible for importing
> a number of French cider apples into Tasmania just to see how well they
> grew there compared to the UK varieties.

After some checking with various sources, I just wanted to clarify and
correct what I wrote there. It is true that Bulmers under their original
family ownership were making cider in Campbelltown NSW from 1969, with a
mixture of Tasmanian apples (largely Sturmer and Granny Smith) and
bittersweet concentrate imported from their own factory in the UK. At
that time they did also set up some experimental plantings of
bittersweets in NSW (Orange and possibly Bathurst) but there were
apparently none in Tasmania, so I was mistaken there. Also, it appears
that they were all UK cultivars, and none of them were French. So my
hypothesis was incorrect. Sorry if I misled anyone.

Later on in the 1990's, the trials were extended into other NSW sites
and also to sites in VIC and WA. Most of those sites had too little
winter chill for the fruit to crop well, but the Orange site performed
the best. The trials were abandoned in 2002 when Bulmer was taken over
and Bulmer Australia was sold.

Hope this puts the record straight!

[greg l.]

Great information Andrew. I wonder what the site in Bathurst might be (if it exists). The possibility of local bittersweet fruit is tantalising. Probably the Ag research station. No problems here with winter chill, rather spring frosts are more of a problem.

For a long time Strongbow was the main brand of cider in Australia, now there are many brands.

Claude, I doubt if trees were imported to Australia as pips, growing fruit trees from seed is regarded as fairly eccentric here.

Greg

[C D-T]

Yes, excellent information Andrew, well researched. Sometimes that kind of information is very hard to find.
Re  the Bathurst Primary Industries Centre - their research plantings currently include stone fruit cultivar arboreta with a large number of heritage fruit trees, and so-called 'alternative fruit crops' such as figs and feijoas. They are not growing any apples, as far as I know.
There are 'deciduous fruit' still being grown at the Orange Agricultural institute, but their website does not specify genera or species.

[Andrew Lea]

David Pickering in Orange is the man for all this. He knows where all the Australian treasure is buried in terms of cider trees. His own research carried out over many years has been detailed and fastidious, including the physical cross checking of varieties by comparing them with examples growing  in the UK and France. No need to reinvent the wheel with David around!

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

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[greg l.]

They have an excellent collection of cider cultivars at the institute in Orange, Lester Snare is the man to talk to, very helpful, also 4 perry cultivars. I got some scions there a few years ago and they are doing well. David did the ID work for the collection, it is a great resource. There is an experimental "organic" vineyard in Bathurst, that sort of thing is very trendy now. There may well be some undocumented cider trees there, who knows. Bathurst used to have a reasonable apple industry but it has been in decline for many years, more money in property development. 

Greg

[C D-T]

Okay, now I get the connection... David Pickering works at Orange. Now it all makes sense!
He *is* the definitive source of knowledge about cider apples in Australia.

Cecilia