Multiple rackings for stabilisation of ice cider

[Søren Ugilt Larsen]

Dear all,

I am attempting to stabilize an ice cider by use of multiple rackings as described by Claude Jolicoeur in his fine book. It would be highly desirable to stop the fermentation without such means as pasteurisation or addition of sorbate. 

I think I understand the basic principle of multiple rackings, i.e. you transfer the ice cider to low temperature, the yeast settles as a sediment, and by racking you can get rid of a considerable part of the yeast cells and, hence, some of the nutrients that would otherwise sustain new yeast growth.

However, I suspect my apples may be fairly rich in nutrients, so my question is what to do in the next ‘racking cycle’ to most effectively deplete the nutrients and stopping the fermentation? Should I:

1) Retransfer the ice cider to a higher temperature (10-12C - or even 15-20C?) after racking to stimulate new yeast growth, allowing a larger crop of yeast and removal of more nutrients in the next cycle of cold crashing and racking?

Or 2) keep the ice cider at a low temperature (5C or lower if possible) to avoid new yeast growth and hope that the remaining yeast will sediment and be removed by the next racking - and eventually have to few yeast cells left to start refermentation?

Thank you very much in advance!
And sorry if I have missed an earlier dialog on this subject. I am a fairly new user of this forum, and I am really excited about all the expertise being shared by Andrew, Claude and all others - thank you!

Best wishes
Søren

[tanja s]

Hi Soren, 

Could you kindly share which book by Claude you refer to, please?

I have a similar Q as I don’t wish to use sorbate. 

Why are you against pausterization?

Cheers

/T

On 6 Mar 2021, at 4:03 PM, Søren Ugilt Larsen <sorenugi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear all,

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le samedi 6 mars 2021 à 03:03:04 UTC-5, sorenugi...@gmail.com a écrit :

I am attempting to stabilize an ice cider by use of multiple rackings as described by Claude Jolicoeur in his fine book. It would be highly desirable to stop the fermentation without such means as pasteurisation or addition of sorbate. 

Yes you can stop the fermentation this way, but I would only recommend this if for hobby ice cider. It is quite difficult to insure perfect stabilisation and most of the time the ice cider does become slightly fizzy after a while in bottles.

For commercial ice cider, you need to be sure the ice cider is perfectly stabilised - and this is achieved by pasteurisation or sterile filtration plus addition of chemical stabilisers.

However, I suspect my apples may be fairly rich in nutrients,

This could make things more difficult...

 

so my question is what to do in the next ‘racking cycle’ to most effectively deplete the nutrients and stopping the fermentation? Should I:

1) Retransfer the ice cider to a higher temperature (10-12C - or even 15-20C?) after racking to stimulate new yeast growth, allowing a larger crop of yeast and removal of more nutrients in the next cycle of cold crashing and racking?

Or 2) keep the ice cider at a low temperature (5C or lower if possible) to avoid new yeast growth and hope that the remaining yeast will sediment and be removed by the next racking - and eventually have to few yeast cells left to start refermentation?

Honestly, I don't know which would be the best. For my part, my fermentation room is at around 10C , and this is the temperature I work with...

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le samedi 6 mars 2021 à 03:59:11 UTC-5, buzz...@gmail.com a écrit :

Hi Soren, 

Could you kindly share which book by Claude you refer to, please?

 

There is a section in The New Cider Maker's Handbook where the process of making ice cider is described...

[tanja s]

Thank you Claude !

Sent from my iPhone

On 6 Mar 2021, at 10:17 PM, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Søren Ugilt Larsen]

Dear editor of the cider workshop,

I have posted a question a couple of days ago, and there has been a couple of good comments/questions on this tread: https://groups.google.com/g/cider-workshop/c/woBBfh5ol-I/m/g_gAhp_zAAAJ 

I would like to answer them, but it is unclear to me, how I respond to each individual post in the tread?

I don't seem to find any buttons for answering, neither to the whole group, nor to individuals. 

But perhaps there is something that I have completely missed? :-)

Best wishes

Søren

[Søren Ugilt Larsen]

Ooops, now I think I know how it works with responding in a tread... :-) Sorry for the previous spam post!

Thanks for the responses to my post. Regarding pasteurisation, I have only experience with unfermented juice, and although it works fine in terms of preserving the juice, I think the juice looses a bit of it freshness. But if I do not succeed in stabilizing the ice cider with multiple rackings, I may have to try with pasteurising it - perhaps with addition of 50 ppm SO2 to minimize the occurrence of cooked flavor. 

Once again, thanks for your input!

Best wishes

Søren

[Ian Shields]

Isn't it vitamin c that helps reduce cooked flavours?

I don't know what others think but I quite like the effect of pasteurization on the taste of cider. Conversely I don't really like the effect on apple juice but it's the price you have to pay for long lasting juice if freezing isn't really a practical option.

Ian

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[Søren Ugilt Larsen]

Hi Ian,

As I have understood, e.g. from this tread https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CAOXnV8rfgtJNDY7mrw1g-SYzz7yZjgJRFja-w542G6Tyhv3iWQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer (if I copied it riget...), SO2 can minimise the occurrence of cooked flavours from pasteurisation of cider. But perhaps ascorbic acid can have the same effect? 

Has anyone experience with this - and perhaps pros and cons and suggestions for doses of SO2 and ascorbic acid, respectively, for pasteurisation of cider/ice cider?

Søren

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[Andrew Lea]

SO2 will mitigate cooked flavours in pasteurised cider by combining with early Maillard products which are generated on heating. This is fine for cider. If you are selling it commercially it must be declared on the label as an allergen (which it is strictly not) because some people are very sensitive to it and it can provoke asthmatic symptoms in susceptible individuals. However, in a real life cider, the SO2 is bound to acetaldehyde and other fermentation carbonyls so very little remains free. 

Dosage of SO2 to prevent oxidation and Maillard browning in finished cider is typically 50 ppm.

SO2 is not so good for juice because (at least in the EU and UK) the addition of SO2 to retail apple juice is illegal and has been for many years. Also most people can taste it in juice because there is nothing for it to bind to, so it remains free.  Ascorbic acid is a good substitute and is widely used to prevent oxidation and Maillard reactions in unpasteurised juice. (It is also the case that the ascorbic breakdown products can promote oxidation and Maillard browning but generally that it is not an issue).

Dosage of ascorbic acid in apple juice prior to pasteurisation is typically 500 ppm. Lower than that can paradoxically lead to increased oxidation and Maillard browning. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 7 Mar 2021, at 21:33, Søren Ugilt Larsen <sorenugi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ian,

As I have understood, e.g. from this tread https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CAOXnV8rfgtJNDY7mrw1g-SYzz7yZjgJRFja-w542G6Tyhv3iWQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer (if I copied it riget...), SO2 can minimise the occurrence of cooked flavours from pasteurisation of cider. But perhaps ascorbic acid can have the same effect? 

Has anyone experience with this - and perhaps pros and cons and suggestions for doses of SO2 and ascorbic acid, respectively, for pasteurisation of cider/ice cider?

Søren

søndag den 7. marts 2021 skrev Ian Shields <iancs...@gmail.com>:

Isn't it vitamin c that helps reduce cooked flavours?

I don't know what others think but I quite like the effect of pasteurization on the taste of cider. Conversely I don't really like the effect on apple juice but it's the price you have to pay for long lasting juice if freezing isn't really a practical option.

Ian

On Sun, 7 Mar 2021, 16:20 Søren Ugilt Larsen, <sorenugi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ooops, now I think I know how it works with responding in a tread... :-) Sorry for the previous spam post!

Thanks for the responses to my post. Regarding pasteurisation, I have only experience with unfermented juice, and although it works fine in terms of preserving the juice, I think the juice looses a bit of it freshness. But if I do not succeed in stabilizing the ice cider with multiple rackings, I may have to try with pasteurising it - perhaps with addition of 50 ppm SO2 to minimize the occurrence of cooked flavor. 

Once again, thanks for your input!

Best wishes

Søren

Den søn. 7. mar. 2021 kl. 16.40 skrev Søren Ugilt Larsen <sorenugi...@gmail.com>:

Dear editor of the cider workshop,

I have posted a question a couple of days ago, and there has been a couple of good comments/questions on this tread: https://groups.google.com/g/cider-workshop/c/woBBfh5ol-I/m/g_gAhp_zAAAJ 

I would like to answer them, but it is unclear to me, how I respond to each individual post in the tread?

I don't seem to find any buttons for answering, neither to the whole group, nor to individuals. 

But perhaps there is something that I have completely missed? :-)

Best wishes

Søren

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[Andrew Lea]

Sorry, typo in 3rd para ...

Should read “used to prevent oxidation and Maillard reactions in pasteurised juice”

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 7 Mar 2021, at 21:52, Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> wrote:

SO2 will mitigate cooked flavours in pasteurised cider by combining with early Maillard products which are generated on heating. This is fine for cider. If you are selling it commercially it must be declared on the label as an allergen (which it is strictly not) because some people are very sensitive to it and it can provoke asthmatic symptoms in susceptible individuals. However, in a real life cider, the SO2 is bound to acetaldehyde and other fermentation carbonyls so very little remains free. 

[Søren Ugilt Larsen]

Thanks a lot, Andrew - that is very useful information!

Last autumn I made some must from Elstar apples where I added 500 ppm ascorbic acid immediately after pressing to obtain ‘cloudy’ juice by the Pedersen method as described in your book. I was not really aware of the additional beneficial effect of ascorbic acid for minimising cooked flavours after pasteurisation, but it is in fact very good and fresh tasting juice (I should make a blind tasting of the pasteurized Elstar juice with and without addition of ascorbic acid).

Do you happen to have any thoughts about optimal temperature regime during repeated cycles of multiple racking to stabilize cider or ice cider with residual sugar? 

I.e. if it is most effective with higher temperatures to stimulate yeast growth followed by low temperature to sediment the yeast before racking (for depletion of nutrients over time), OR if it is better to keep the cider at low temperature to avoid yeast growth and hope for sedimentation of the remaining yeast (for depletion of yeast rather than nutrients)?

Thanks once again. 

Søren

Andrew

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[Andrew Lea]

Sorry Søren but I don’t have an answer to your racking questions. I never made ice cider. As Claude said, you will never get a perfectly stable product without sterile filtration or pasteurisation. As an amateur, pasteurisation is the easiest and most reliable bet. 

Andrew 

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On 8 Mar 2021, at 21:53, Søren Ugilt Larsen <sorenugi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks a lot, Andrew - that is very useful information!

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[Andy Backinsell]

Looking back at this topic as my first 10L batch of ice cider moves to where I want it to be; it's lost 10 points in 50 days from 1.078 to 1.068 which I make as approx FSU 19.  This seems ok to me, even with the heatwave we had in the UK (it was in the shed which reached sauna like temperature so I moved to the fridge for a few days and now it's in the coolest part of the house).  I just wanted to check my plan with move experienced folk:

1. Wait for it to get to 1.065
2. cold crash in the chest freezer for an hour or so and rack into a bucket leaving behind probably more than I would want, add 50ppm SO2 and de-gas it (it's quite lively still now) by stirring to release co2
3. tap off into nice glass bottles
4. pasteurise for 10 mins at 65 degrees

Does that sound a plan, anything people would do differently?  Would it benefit from ageing? 

Many thanks Andy

Andrew

Hi Ian,

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

For my part, I would rack now (at 1.068), let it go a bit, and rack again at 1.066 or 65. After that it should be quite stable. You can then let it age a bit and get it clarified (if it is currently hazy).

[Andy Backinsell]

Thank you Claude, now racked.