Adding tannins to cider

[Funk Factory]

It seems sourcing local sharp apples is going to be difficult.  Although we are still trying to find local varieties with high tannin levels, I have been pondering other ways to increase the tannin level of the juice (without buying tannic acid extract).  My first thought is to use a hop bag and steep grape must in with the cider during fermentation. Does anyone have any experience with this?  I have no idea if this is a good idea or not, and it may be sacrilegious to even suggest it, but it seems to be a plentiful source of natural tannins.

Another idea I had would be to use the apple skins themselves after pressing.  Again steeping them in the fermenter with a hop bag. 

[Funk Factory]

Sorry, I meant bitter apples, not sharp.

[Dick Dunn]

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 09:49:34AM -0700, Funk Factory wrote:
[trying to increase tannins]
> ... My first thought is to use a hop bag
> and steep grape must in with the cider during fermentation...

How do you put must in a bag?!?

(Did you mean pulp maybe?)

> Another idea I had would be to use the apple skins themselves after
> pressing. Again steeping them in the fermenter with a hop bag.

Common misconception; tannins in apples are not in the skins but rather
distributed throughout the flesh.

Best bet is to try to find wildings which are high in tannin without being
too sharp.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Funk Factory]

Yes, the pulp/pomace is what I am referring to.  The skins and stems remaining after grapes are pressed.

[Andrew Lea]

On 22/07/2013 18:20, Funk Factory wrote:
> Yes, the pulp/pomace is what I am referring to. The skins and stems
> remaining after grapes are pressed.

You can try all these things, and don't let me stop you. Trouble is that
not all tannins are created equal, nor do they live in isolation. That
is, if you extract grape skins seeds and stems during cider fermentation
(the alcohol will allow for greater extraction) you will likely get
stemmy and stalky flavours as well which may not be nice. It is
difficult to control tannin when extracted in this way and make it
compatible with a cider.

I know it is easy for me to say this, with free access to high-tannin UK
cider apples, but I have never encountered a cider where the addition of
'pure' tannin or an extract was successful. It always stands out. Rather
it needs to come from the apple itself during the process. For instance,
the whole oxidation and colour thing is also tannin-related. And high
tannin cider apples from England and France also have lots of other
unique flavour precursor properties which are not tannin-related. The
mere addition of tannin cannot duplicate that. As Dick says, maybe you
should hunt for apples that come closer to the ideal. Or be prepared to
make a cider which is low in tannin and celebrate it in its own right.
Not all good ciders have to be high in tannin.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Funk Factory]

Andrew - I understand that completely, and we have talked extensively regarding the fact we are not looking to make a traditional English cider with high tannins, but rather our own cider with local varieties.  That being said, with the knowledge that tannins play an important role in the cider, we do not want to ignore that in our blend. We will source high varieties with higher tannin levels, but it seems very difficult to get enough of these varieties where we may want to supplement the cider with something.  It won't be to the level of a high tannin English cider, but we don't want to cider to be lacking in this area either.

We also want to keep everything sourced locally and naturally, so extracts are not an option.  I agree using the seeds and stems may create more of a woody flavor than desired, so maybe just grape skins is all that should be considered.

I guess my real question is does anyone know of anyone who has done this?  Would steeping some grape skins in with the fermentation be beneficial in supplementing the tannins that local varieties are lower on?

[Cheshire Matt]

As Andrew said in an earlier post: why the assumption that there have to be appreciable levels of tannins, and somehow this is a 'good thing'?

Tannins _can_ play an important role, but I think you're overlooking the main premise of a 'balanced' cider. High tannin won't counter high acidity, for example. And some 'low tannin' apples can have fruity notes. (Don't ask me 'which ones' as I don't ID many apples, but I do taste all of them and have some years experience of knowing which trees/orchards contribute which flavours to the blend.) Crabs and that one 'magic tree' maybe what you're after.

Yes, there is part science in cider making, but there's more experience and what your taste buds tell you.

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