Choosing a pump

[AdamD]

Hi all. This is my first question, but I have been reading lots oon
here over the last year.

This year I will be making a few hundred litres of cider, in 220L
plastic drums, so I will need a pump for moving amd racking the stuff.

My question is, will a relatively less expensive centrifugal pump
(food grade obviosly) be ok, or should I be looking at a flexible
impeller pump? I have been told that centrifugal pumps have a tendency
to introduce too much air to the fermented cider, but the least
expensive food safe flexible impeller pump I can find is the Euro 20
from Vigo, at £345 +VAT, followed by the Okoflow at a whopping
£420+VAT..

Any thoughts?

[Nick at Ciderniks]

Try a specialist pump supplier - Central Pumps, Castle Pumps etc? Much cheaper

Nick Edwards
Ciderniks – Cider from Kintbury

E-mail: ni...@ciderniks.com
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[Andrew Lea]

On 21/09/2010 07:25, AdamD wrote:
>

> I have been told that centrifugal pumps have a tendency
> to introduce too much air to the fermented cider,

I am curious to know where the air is coming from, if all liquid inlet
lines are completely filled. I think what is being described is actually
the out-gassing of dissolved carbon dioxide already present in the
cider, due to mechanical work. I use a simple Vigo centrifugal pump and
have certainly observed that effect; but I don't think air is involved.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk

[AdamD]

OK, outgassing is possible the correct term, it was explained to me
that the large amounts of turbulence in the chanmber of the pump cause
dissolved gas to come out of solution and that this was bad. If other
people here use a centrifugal pump without a problem, that's
encouraging.

[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

I have the same effect with my Vigo pump. I thought that air was
getting in at the pump head and tried tightening the pump and using pte
tape on the hoses before coming to the same explanation as you:
Disolved CO2 being released by the impeller.
Guy

Andrew

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[Andrew Lea]

In theory it probably is 'bad'! Just how bad must depend on how much CO2
is actually lost, which I do not know, but I would guess from my own
observation only a small proportion. I think some people in the wine
industry prefer vane impellers rather than centrifugal impellers because
they are 'gentler' and maybe lead to less loss of delicate volatile
aromas. Whether any formal studies have been done on this I do not know.

I am no pump expert but other differences AFAIK are that vane impellers
are generally self-priming and can handle some level of suspended solids
whereas centrifugal impellers aren't and don't like too much in the way
of suspended material.

[Dave Sargent]

Hi Last year we bought a bronze drill pump at around 70 quid. it is probably the biggest (or smallest as the pump is not big) waste of cash so far.. I would not recommend this type, they have to be run at very high speed to actually pump! and this speed makes the product extremely "aerated" . you also have to bear the whine of an electric drill!!!! . this year we are going to upgrade to a "real" pump. which will also be brought into service as a bottle washer etc.. regards dave --- On Tue, 21/9/10, Nick at Ciderniks <ni...@ciderniks.com> wrote:

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[Rose]

This summer my well worn Europump finally gave up the ghost. I
happened to mention this to Barry and he told me that he had ordered
one of the Italian made Rover Pompes from Brouwland. When it arrived
he brought it over here for me to try. It proved to be ideal for my
bag in box filler.

I fill volumetrically using a home made gadget with a 20 litre
measuring chamber ( actually an upside down 5 gallon fermenter, with a
calibrated mark at the 20 litre level) . Cider is pumped into this,up
to the mark and then the chamber is discharged into the BiB bag by
gravity from a tap at the bottom. The filling of the measuring chamber
is crucial. A Europump is too slow and I found that the Okoflow is too
fast. If the input flow is too fierce it becomes difficult to judge
when to switch off at the 20 litre level, due to the turbulence within
the chamber.

To my delight I found the little Rover Pompe was ideal. It steadily
fills the 20 litres in about one minute and the cider reaches the
level mark in a steady fashion that makes it easy to switch off the
pump at exactly the right point. I can thoroughly recommend it for
small and not so small movements of cider between tubs, jars and small
tanks. It runs on 240 v ac and unusally has a two way switch, allowing
the pump to work in either direction.

I was even more pleased that Barry was able to let me buy it from him,
as he had set his sights on a more powerful version. The one I have is
the smallest in the stainless range with a 1700 l / hr capability. It
is available from www.brouwland.com as item No. 018.106.20 price 115
euros.

Rose

[MARK SHIRLEY]

> The one I have is
> the smallest in the stainless range with a 1700 l / hr
> capability. It
> is available from www.brouwland.com as item No.
> 018.106.20  price 115
> euros.
>
> Rose

At last, a reasonably priced stainless pump. The last time I looked at these Rover Pompe's, they seemed to be all Bronze bodied and not ideal for cider.

On a related note, I would advise anyone thinking of getting a magnetically coupled impeller pump to think again. On the face of it they seem ideal. I bought an inexpensive model from March May Pumps, which was fully food-grade and acid reistant. The lack of a need for a seal around the spindle seemed a bonus and the 'head' appeared to be sufficient to pump from one fermenter to another. In practice it was woefully underpowered, and agitated the cider to a milky white hue, removing pretty much all the disolved CO2. More powerful models are available, but then you're up to a similar price as better alternatives.

Mark

[Roy Bailey]

On Sep 21, 7:25 am, AdamD <adam6...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I recommend a Clarke pump from Machine Mart (stores everywhere) for
about £60 or less. I have used one for many years and although they
are not food grade they are all plastic and I have never had any
problems. Well, anyway, no-one has died!

Roy.

[Tim]

Interesting to see an alternative, I use an eheim 1260 aquarium pump but am
considering the stuart turner pond pump I have in the shed, they are both
plastic.

Tim.

Roy.

--

[Dick Dunn]

Nice to hear from Rose again.

The "Rover" pump really does look nice, and the price is excellent for
that sort of design, stainless and all. Wish we could get that sort
of pump over here!

A detail from Rose's note, and questions:

> I was even more pleased that Barry was able to let me buy it from him,
> as he had set his sights on a more powerful version. The one I have is
> the smallest in the stainless range with a 1700 l / hr capability. It
> is available from www.brouwland.com as item No. 018.106.20 price 115
> euros.

Looking at the Brouwland site, I see that the higher capacity pumps
run at about half the motor speed of the one that Rose now has. That
would presumably create a lot less turbulence. Rose, do you notice any
excess agitation or outgassing of CO2 with the small pump?

When the pump is off, will it allow liquid to flow or is it "stopped"?
I'd assume, for a centrifugal pump, it would allow flow.

Is the motor rated for 50/60 Hz or just 50?
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Galen Williams]

Greetings all,

 

Has anyone had experience with the buon vino wine pumps, good or bad?  There seems to be limited technical info about them but I gather that they are not centrifugal since they do self prime.  They appear to be a reasonable way to get into working with plate filters as well.  Many wine supply shops stock them in the US but I am not sure how widely available they are.

 

Galen

[Andrew Lea]

On 21/09/2010 13:32, MARK SHIRLEY wrote:

>
> On a related note, I would advise anyone thinking of getting a
> magnetically coupled impeller pump to think again. On the face of it

> they seem ideal. .... In practice it
> was woefully underpowered,

Thanks for the tip Mark. I had often wondered how powerful the magnetic
coupling was. Seems the answer is 'not very'!

That SS pump of Rose's looks lovely. I think I'm developing 'pump envy'
now. A party of us from 3CCPA went around Peter Mitchell's Orchard
Centre a few weeks ago and one of our number (on this list but shall be
nameless) said he was developing 'tank envy' after admiring all the
lovely SS fermenters and large scale bag-in-box stuff!

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page

http://www.cider.org.uk

[jez....@btinternet.com]

Welcome back Rose - great to hear from you!

Barry sent some info about that pump and I must say I will be upgrading to it later this year. At the moment its more a case of tipping small amounts of juice into bigger containers, but that trend reverses in the new year.

For those using pond pumps, I can't see anything wrong per se for personal use, but the prime issue is whether you can take all the working parts apart for cleaning. When it comes to commercial use, due diligence suggests you use food grade for safety (though it would be interesting to see what an EHO would say)

All the best

Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

[michael]

Hi Rose,
This stainless steel pump seems interesting.It seems
ideal for transferring between my 30l containers(1.2 min?),and rather
faster than the Europump,which takes about 6min if it doesnt cut out
through overheating.
Do you think that the pump you tried could pump liquid into a 5l
demijohn,or is this asking too much(12 second!!).
I actually normally siphon cider between my 30l containers and 5l
demijohns,so I do not need to use it in this way.
Incidentally,when I looked up this pump on the Brouwland site,it was
called a Novax s/steel pump,but the order number 018.106.20 is the
same as the one you gave described as a Rover pompe.
Hope you are having a good year in your Dorset orchard.
Best regards
Michael

> is available fromwww.brouwland.comas item No. 018.106.20  price 115

> euros.
>
> Rose
>
> On Sep 21, 7:25 am, AdamD <adam6...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi all. This is my first question, but I have been reading lots oon
> > here over the last year.
>
> > This year I will be making a few hundred litres of cider, in 220L
> > plastic drums, so I will need a pump for moving amd racking the stuff.
>
> > My question is, will a relatively less expensive centrifugal pump
> > (food grade obviosly) be ok, or should I be looking at a flexible
> > impeller pump? I have been told that centrifugal pumps have a tendency
> > to introduce too much air to the fermented cider, but the least
> > expensive food safe flexible impeller pump I can find is the Euro 20
> > from Vigo, at £345 +VAT, followed by the Okoflow at a whopping
> > £420+VAT..
>

> > Any thoughts?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Ray Blockley]

Good to hear from Rose again.

 

I'm looking at up-grading pumps too, to pump larger volumes greater distances as I am investing in some IBC's.

 

However, have a look at the 12v Shurflo diaphragm pumps before jumping for a larger more expensive 240v pump.  

http://tinyurl.com/3xcgfjt

 

Had one of these for a couple of years now and it's ideal for my use in the shed, filling 60 litre containers, racking, blending - and filling 10 L and 20 L BiB's, as well as 5 L demijohns. As with any pump, there is some CO2 release but I find it's fairly minimal - certainly nothing I've had to worry about. I will continue to use my Shurflo as it will get more use than any other larger, more powerful pump. And being 12v all you need is an old battery and it is also eminently portable as well as safe.

 

Here's a shot of my home-made pump trolley in The Cider Workshop flickr group:

http://tinyurl.com/38j9kq9

 

Horses for courses of course.

 

Cheers,

 

Ray.
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
http://torkardcider.moonfruit.com/

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "michael" <michael....@yahoo.co.uk>

To: "Cider Workshop" <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 5:23 PM

Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Choosing a pump

> wrote:

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[Rose]

Thank you all for your kind remarks re my return. Actually I've not
been away really, having followed every topic, but have been subdued
by an excess of bottling throughout the summer. However, more about
that later, before the pressing consumes every waking moment.

Regarding the Rover Pompe ( alias Novax ), Dick asked about outgassing
and throughflow. I would say that gassing is proportionally less than
that produced by the Okoflow. Difficult to judge of course due to
their different flow rates. Yes, cider will flow unobstucted by the
pumps's impeller when the pump is off. This caught me out at first
when allowing a disconnected hose to be placed below the level in the
supplying tank and a minor flood ensued! Now I always shut off the
tank when switching off the pump.

It is a great bonus that the pump can run continuously, when one has
been used to living with the 'stop and wait' performance of the
Europump. Like the latter, it is self priming which is very useful.

Michael, it can be used for filling demijohns but you need to be
careful. Pulse the pump on and off as the cider level reaches the neck
off the jar, or you will give yourself a cider shampoo!

Finally I am unconvinced about pumps causing a reduction in the
quality of the cider. I have a 'quality taster' of ever batch that I
package and have not noticed a problem since using the new pump. I say
this advisedly having long been troubled by Jean Nowell's advice when
I discussed racking, of never to move the cider about more than you
really have to.

In short I love Rover Pompe and when the sad day comes that Oko pops
his clogs, I will go for one of the larger Pompes as a replacement.

Rose

On Sep 21, 7:33 pm, "Ray Blockley" <rayblock...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Good to hear from Rose again.
>
> I'm looking at up-grading pumps too, to pump larger volumes greater distances as I am investing in some IBC's.
>
> However, have a look at the 12v Shurflo diaphragm pumps before jumping for a larger more expensive 240v pump.  http://tinyurl.com/3xcgfjt
>
> Had one of these for a couple of years now and it's ideal for my use in the shed, filling 60 litre containers, racking, blending - and filling 10 L and 20 L BiB's, as well as 5 L demijohns. As with any pump, there is some CO2 release but I find it's fairly minimal - certainly nothing I've had to worry about. I will continue to use my Shurflo as it will get more use than any other larger, more powerful pump. And being 12v all you need is an old battery and it is also eminently portable as well as safe.
>
> Here's a shot of my home-made pump trolley in The Cider Workshop flickr group:http://tinyurl.com/38j9kq9
>
> Horses for courses of course.
>
> Cheers,
>

> Ray.http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/http://torkardcider.moonfruit.com/

> > is available fromwww.brouwland.comasitem No. 018.106.20 price 115

[Dick Dunn]

On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 12:34:39AM -0700, Rose wrote:
...
> ...Yes, cider will flow unobstucted by the

> pumps's impeller when the pump is off. This caught me out at first
> when allowing a disconnected hose to be placed below the level in the
> supplying tank and a minor flood ensued! Now I always shut off the
> tank when switching off the pump.

I've made several mistakes in my "apprentice" work in the meadery,
and this was at the heart of two of them. In my case it didn't cause
floods, but rather unintended backflows. In one case it just wasted
time having to re-pump out of a tank, but in the other it disturbed
sediment at the end of racking--which has deferred a planned bottling.

Seems we have an expectation that a pump should either be causing flow
(when it's running) or not allowing flow (when it's off)...not that we
don't "know" better! But somehow intuition and intellect get crossed
and in the heat of the moment intuition takes over?

[Giuseppe Casti]

Hello everybody,

I've found this old post on pumps because now I've got the same Adam's problem: racking a larger cider volume that is no longer possible to rack by gravity.

Last month I did it with a low capacity centrifugal pump on my first batch, but I'm not so happy to lose all that carbon dioxide and volatile compounds shaken by the impeller. I'd like to retain as much as possible the endogenous CO2.

I know in wine making CO2 is a fault in a dry still wine, so they do not care about pump turbulence.

Any experience about rotary pumps with flexible rubber impeller like that linked below? Should I consider a minimum pump RPM?

https://www.polsinelli.it/en/electric-pump-ep-mini-20-P471.htm 

Any other solution? How do they rack cider on a commercial scale?

Thank you all,

Giuseppe

[Handmade Cider]

The pump can only introduce air into the cider if air is available, if there is air available at the impeller then the pump has a fault.

I too would like to keep dissolved co2 in my ciders but this is not possible with either a flexible impeller or centrifugal pump, they both cavitate and if I am racking keeved ciders the pump outlet is issuing foam rather than liquid. I do not believe this is just down to speed.

You have 2 options:

With your drums both at the same height, set up the pump and run it momentarily to prime the hoses, then let it siphon till the levels in the drums are equal, then pump the rest, this will preserve some of the dissolved co2. Or buy a mohno pump which is a screwthread in a tube. These are much more gentle but cost a fortune!

Denis

Denis France   www.handmadecider.co.uk   07590 264804  Company. No. 07241330

White Label – Champion Farmhouse Cider, Bath & West Show 2015.

Spring Surprise - Cider of the Festival Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2015 & 2014

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[John B, Bath]

Just a thought for the original poster who is doing a 'few hundred' litres (as I do) ... I collect the juice from the press directly into 27 litre fermenters (never completely filling them). I then use a small set of steps to tip these into my 120 and 220 litre barrels which are on stacked pallets about 3-4 feet off the ground. This is where the fermentation takes place. I can then rack back into smaller containers after fermentation. This avoids the need for a pump altogether and saves losing the suspended CO2. A manual pallet lift would also work well for this purpose if the 220 litre fermenter were only on a single pallet. 

John

[Wes Cherry]

Also consider a diaphragm pump.   Positive displacement and cost around $100 +/-

Jabsco and Shurflo are 2 brands, in the US at least.

With lots of little nooks, they aren’t nearly as easy to clean though.   A home winemaker friend has one and has been using it for sometime without any issues.

Or, a rotary vane pump.   I use a Procon unit out of a McCann carbonation unit.   Most pump heads are brass, but they also come in stainless.   

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emerson-1-3-HP-Motor-with-ProCon-Drive-Stainless-Steel-Carbonator-Pump-6079-/132055540464?hash=item1ebf1fa2f0:g:UI4AAOSw2xRYbpqC

-Wes

On Jan 31, 2017, at 7:28 AM, 'John B, Bath' via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Just a thought for the original poster who is doing a 'few hundred' litres (as I do) ... I collect the juice from the press directly into 27 litre fermenters (never completely filling them). I then use a small set of steps to tip these into my 120 and 220 litre barrels which are on stacked pallets about 3-4 feet off the ground. This is where the fermentation takes place. I can then rack back into smaller containers after fermentation. This avoids the need for a pump altogether and saves losing the suspended CO2. A manual pallet lift would also work well for this purpose if the 220 litre fermenter were only on a single pallet. 

John

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[Richard Anderson]

You are going to find pumps a) very necessary and b) a headache in determining the best pump(s) for your situation. We use them all. The most versatile is a diaphragm pump since it is variable speed. However if you want to pump say 20-30 gallons/min you need a fairly big compressor. Most of the small rotary pumps are in inexpensive and are made for short bursts of pumping and have a life of 2-3 years. We use several of them for periodic pumping tasks that require moving small quantities of cider.

[Max Nowell]

I have a Novax as well, and find it very good overall.  The syphoning ability that it has can be a problem if I forget.  My tip is to lift the higher end of pipe out of the cider until it drains to the high point in the pipe, usually where it hooks over the lip of the barrel.  I'm also not all that taken with the double-acting switch, having gone the wrong way once or twice with unfortunate results...

Sometimes I do feel that it is a little aggressive towards the cider - I wonder if some sort of variable resistor could be wired in so that the pump would run with a lower voltage or amperage, not sure which would work, making it slower?

[Peter C. Ross - Incy Wincy Cyder (Aust.)]

I did 2000 Litres this year and racked and bottled it all with gravity, with no particular stress. My largest S/Steel vat is 600 Litres and we have 3 of those, as well as a few 400's and 300's and a couple of Speidel Plastic 100's.

Basically they all live on their own wooden Pallet except the Speidels which share a Pallet. A cheap Pallet truck allows me to (carefully) move them around (we are tight on space) and a Manual Pallet Walkie-Stacker like this one:  Pallet Stacker  Allows me to get height gently and easily for racking and bottling.

I have always hated the idea of pumps on wine and cider and thought i was the only one crazy enough to do things this way, until I visited a lovely older chap in Tasmania 2 years ago who had designed (he was an architect-retired) and built his Cydery on a series of step downs, loading apples into a barn door at the top (some 20 metres up) and progressing his Cider and the process to the ground floor tasting and bottling area. I am currently building something similar.

[Tony Lovering]

Centrifugal pumps need to be below the level of the fluid of it contains dissolved gas. The min fluid height is called the Net Positive Suction head. When the level falls below this level the pump will cavitate. A typical NPSH for a small pump is 4-6ft but it should be stated on the pump specs. I have used pumps that require 16ft NPSH.

A diaphragm pump with a min NPSH is more suited to this application. If your tanks can hold a few PSI of pressure it would be best to use N2 to force over fluids from tank to tank

Cheers 

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[Barrett Froc]

Yea, I have nothing to input here, as the smallest pump we use at our water treatment plant is a 75 horsepower pump, and the largest is just over 2,000 horsepower. Good points were made in the last post here. Watch your NPSH (net positiv suction head) and your impeller rate, usually in RPM, or your strokes per min on a positive displacement pump. Almost ALL pumps need cooling for the bearings/cylinders, which is usually done with treated water at our water treatment plant, but some pumps are designed to lose fluid from inside the pump to the outside. Another alternative is a drum pump that works like a turbine pump. It has a suction tube that goes down into the fluid similar to an auto-siphon and can handle negative values of NPSH. We use these to transfer fluid chemicals from barrels to hand equipment, usually cleaning solutions. Currently our longest running pump was made in 1911, and we don't buy pumps that are "disposable" (ie. last less than 10 years, or do not grant access inside the casing for impeller/bearing maintenance). I understand though that you don't have a team of millwrights going around checking bearing temps and housing vibration though either.

If you're looking for laminar flow characteristics, gravity will always be your best bet. Larger hose diameter and increased head distance (ie. vertical distance between the inlet and outlet of the two containers) are going to be your biggest influence factors. In this case, hose diameter will actually yield you better results than increased distance. a 50mm hose is significantly better than a 25mm hose for laminar flow, and reducing your friction points (elbows, tees, valves etc.) will also be better, so flexible tubing with no elbows is better than PVC with elbows, for example. 

I'll ask our maintenance engineer and his superintendents which pumps might be best suited to small laminar flows. (We use negative suction head through a flume for chlorine dosing, which is the only laminar process we require in the WTP that involves adding/moving fluid).

[Martin campling]

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 7:12:50 PM UTC, Max Nowell wrote:

I have a Novax as well, and find it very good overall.  The syphoning ability that it has can be a problem if I forget.  My tip is to lift the higher end of pipe out of the cider until it drains to the high point in the pipe, usually where it hooks over the lip of the barrel.

I too have a Novax Rover (M20) which I've been using for three years to move about 1,200 litres around. I certainly don't regret buying it; it has made life a lot easier than using gravity. The main drawback I find is that there is no way to close off the flow once you have stopped pumping so that if the destination fermenter is higher than the source (e.g. when I'm transferring from 30L buckets into raised 220L barrels) then it all starts flowing backwards gain so you have to remove the pipe from the target quite quickly and that can be a bit messy.

  Martin 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 2 février 2017 03:39:08 UTC-5, Martin campling a écrit :

The main drawback I find is that there is no way to close off the flow once you have stopped pumping so that if the destination fermenter is higher than the source (e.g. when I'm transferring from 30L buckets into raised 220L barrels) then it all starts flowing backwards gain so you have to remove the pipe from the target quite quickly and that can be a bit messy.

Wouldn't it be a simple thing to install a ball valve? Then simply closing the valve once you are done with pumping would solve your problem...
Claude

[Vince Wakefield]

You could fit a duck bill valve to the end of the pipe,

 

with a bit of ingenuity you could make your own by fitting some suitable flexible tube over the end of the pipe that folds up and blocks the pipe if there is any back flow, or if you can keep the outlet pipe upright in the tank then maybe a Ping-Pong ball in a cage type of arrangement so the ball floats up and blocks the tube, stopping any back flow.   

 

Or use something like this

http://www.screwfix.com/p/mcalpine-t28m-nrv-non-return-valve-white-40mm/61561?kpid=61561&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%20Listing%20Ads-_-Sales%20Tracking-_-sales%20tracking%20url&gclid=Cj0KEQiAzsvEBRDEluzk96e4rqABEiQAezEOoJHIKYQ_QipqyRRQPbK-4OS8HBTfFP45PucsC1G-FhcaAqPV8P8HAQ

 

Cheers

Vince

--

[Martin campling]

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 10:49:48 AM UTC, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

Wouldn't it be a simple thing to install a ball valve? Then simply closing the valve once you are done with pumping would solve your problem...

 Indeed it would. I jam a long length of 22mm plastic pipe into the end of the flexible hose so it would be a simple matter to cut it and insert a full-bore valve at the top. I shall do that.

Cheers,

    Martin

[Vince Wakefield]

http://www.koilogic.co.uk/non-return-valve-valterra/p149

 

Vince

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin campling
Sent: 02 February 2017 16:40
To: Cider Workshop
Cc: rhand...@centurytel.net
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Choosing a pump

 

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 10:49:48 AM UTC, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

--

[Cazza Blanco]

Hey all, I've looked through this and a number of other discussions and resources, and I wondered if anyone had an update on their opinions of the Novax pumpes now, years later?  

In particular I am finding a lot of people using B (plastic bits, suitable for up to 95 degrees, so for beer mainly) as well as M (brass bits, suitable for up to 35 degrees) options, and wonder if there is any more awareness of if it matters which you have for cider really (does the lower pH than beer impact either)... they are the same price on sites that sell both.

I have also not found any clear discussion on the pros and cons of the 20 vs 25mm options (and no one using the 30), especially with furthering of the conversation around agitation and CO2 loss.  Can anyone speak to this, it would be very helpful.

We're based in the UK.  Focus on still cider, but will also keg.

Here I go trying to unpack the options... its a lot of info, sometimes repeated, often incomplete, sometimes speculative I suspect.  I've left it all here as it may be useful for others to review, as well as helping provide details for my questions, in case anyone has facts or experience to help with this:

From VigoPresse:

25 B:

• Can move up to about 42 litres per minute / 2.500 litres per hour
• Maximum suction height 4m
• All stainless steel contact parts
• Self-priming and with a reversible motor (pumps in both directions)
• Stainless steel hose connections for 25mm (1”) bore tube.
• 1 meter cable with European plug
• 230V/50 Hz
• Height: 25cm / 10”
• Width: 12cm / 4¾”
• Depth: 19cm / 7½”
• Weight 7kg / 14 lbs

From polsinelli on the 25B:

• Power supply: 220V
• Power: 0.9 Hp
• rpm: 1450 rpm
• Capacity: 2400 Lt/h
• Maximum height: 12 m
• Maximum temperature: 95°C
• Hose connector: ø 25
• Overall dimensions in cm: 25 x 12 x 19
• Weight: 7 kg
• Luminaire complies with CE safety standards
• Suitable for liquids of pH range of 4-10
  

25M (only has description, not specs)

Containers of more than 30 litres can’t be easily lifted or emptied by siphon, so if you’re making large batches of cider or juice this electric pump is ideal.

• Compact
• Stainless steel body
• Hose connection: ø 25 mm (1")
• Makes light work of racking off and transferring large amounts of cider or apple juice (without significant solids)
• A more convenient option than the drill pump
• Can move up to about 45 litres per minute / 2,700 litres per hour
• Self-priming and with a reversible motor (pumps in both directions)

Details on 25M from polsinelli:

• Power supply: 220V
• Power: 0.6 Hp
• Rpm: 1450 rpm
• Minimum/maximum flow rate: 45 Lt/min
• Minimum/maximum height: 12 m
• Maximum temperature: 35°C
• Hose holder: ø 25 mm
• Dimensions: mm 250x120x190h
• Weight: 6 kg
• Appliance complies with CE safety standards.
• With description including this: The Novax electric pump of 25 works very well with neutral and clean products, with a percentage of particles in suspension of less than 0. 5%. If necessary, a special narrow mesh filter can be installed at the end of the suction pipe.

20B:

• Can move up to about 47 litres per minute / 2,850 litres per hour
• Maximum suction height 4m
• Self-priming and with a reversible motor (pumps in both directions)
• Stainless steel hose connections for 20 mm (3/4”) bore tube.
• 1.5 metre cable with UK plug
• 230V/50 Hz
• Weight 7Kgs
• Size 250 x 120 x 190mm

From polsinelli on teh 20B:

• Power: 0.5 Hp
• rpm: 2850 rpm
• Capacity: 2400 Lt/h
• Maximum height: 25 m
• Maximum temperature: 95°C
• Hose connector: ø 20
• Overall dimensions in cm: 23 x 12 x 19
• Weight: 7 kg
• Devies complies with CE safety standards
• ph 4-10
  

20 M

• Can move up to about 25 litres per minute / 1,500 litres per hour
• Maximum suction height: 4m
• Self-priming and with a reversible motor (pumps in both directions)
• Hose connections for 20 mm (3/4”) bore tube, with 2 hoseclips
• 5 metre cable fitted with UK plug
• 230V / 50 Hz
• Height: 23cm / 9”
• Width: 12cm / 4¾”
• Depth: 19cm / 7½”
• Weight: 5kg / 11 lbs

Details on the 20M from Vigo Ltd:

• Compact
• Metallic coated cast pump body and impeller
• Single/fixed speed pump
• Self-priming with reversible motor (forward & back)
• Carrying handle
• 5 metre cable with UK plug
• Flow rate: 1500 litres per hour @ 0 bar
• Maximum working pressure: 1.5 bar
• Maximum product temperature: 35 degrees C
• Metallic coated cast pump body and impeller
• Thread (in & out) / Hose connections: ¾" BSP M stainless steel thread connections
• Motor: 0.55kW
• RPM: 2850rpm
• Voltage: 230 V
• Weight: 5kg

From polsinelli for 20M (interesting they state flow and height as a range):

• Power supply: 220V
• Power: 0,5 Hp
• Rpm: 2850
• Minimum/maximum flow rate: 5-28 Lt/min
• Minimum/maximum height: 1-25 m
• Maximum temperature: 35°C
• Hose holder: ø 20

Details the same for all on the the Rover site directly, and frustratingly I can't seem to send them a message: It is possible to use the pump to transfer any type of clean liquid in common use, which must not be chemically aggressive or abrasive. Some examples: water, wine, milk, vinegar, low viscosity oily solutions, neutral fluid detergents, diesel. The viscosity of the liquid must not be greater than 4 cps for continuous service with free flow, and must not exceed 20 cps for intermittent service with free flow and the presence of an operator for surveillance.

I am not sure what CPS stands for in this context - cider portion?  In which case, cider is likely around 1.5?

From Poliniski Product Sheets (only available for the B version, not M):

The product complies with the standards indicated and can be used in applications in contact with food at temperatures up to 95° C and pH between 4 and 10.

I can't find info on pH for the M models.  I have asked one of the sellers. In the meantime, if no specific pH range is listed for these pumps, a general assumption for magnetic drive pumps (M) may be that they can handle slightly more acidic or basic liquids compared to the 4-10 range of the "B" models? This would make choosing the M series sensible over the B. However, we don't know what that range is, and the more acidic cider apples may still be below the unspecified but probably lower range for M.

Some compiled notes (source unclear) on turbulence in general, and C02 loss - what do we think, and does twice the rpm found in the 20 versions impact this really... is flow rate more impactful (25 is higher):

• Faster pumps generally create more turbulence, which can agitate the cider and lead to the release of dissolved CO₂. This is because high turbulence increases the surface area between the liquid and the gas, allowing more CO₂ to escape.
  
• Loss of CO₂ creates headspace in the cider, which can allow oxygen to come into contact with the cider. Oxidation can lead to off-flavors, such as a "stale" or "vinegary" taste, and degrade the freshness and aroma of the cider.
• CO₂ is a natural preservative. Reducing CO₂ levels can make the cider more prone to spoilage by undesirable microorganisms such as wild yeast or bacteria.
• If you’re producing a sparkling cider or aiming for a certain level of natural carbonation, losing CO₂ during racking can significantly reduce the desired carbonation level. This can lead to a flat cider if too much CO₂ escapes.
• In practice, using a low-speed pump (or a peristaltic pump, which is very gentle) is preferable for cider racking to avoid excessive CO₂ loss and reduce the risk of oxygen exposure.
• The pump’s rpm plays a significant role in this process, with lower rpm being more favorable for maintaining the quality of the cider.
• The higher speed of the 20 leads to greater agitation, which increases the surface area between the liquid and any air present, allowing more CO₂ to escape. (but there shouldn't be any air present while pumping... although higher speed would draw in more oxygen if this was the case)
  
• During Fermentation: CO₂ naturally produced during fermentation acts as a protective blanket, displacing oxygen in the headspace and reducing the risk of oxidation. This is beneficial for still cider because oxygen exposure during fermentation or aging can cause off-flavors, browning, and a loss of freshness.
• After Fermentation: If residual CO₂ is present after fermentation, it can continue to provide a buffer against oxygen. Even in still cider, maintaining a small amount of dissolved CO₂ helps reduce the risk of oxidation during storage, particularly when transferring or bottling
• CO₂ Levels and Acidity Perception: Even though still cider is not carbonated, small amounts of dissolved CO₂ can slightly enhance the perception of acidity or sharpness, which can balance sweetness and make the cider taste fresher. Removing all CO₂ can flatten the flavor profile, resulting in a cider that may taste duller or less lively.
• Mouthfeel: A trace of CO₂ can contribute to the texture and mouthfeel of the cider, giving it a subtle "brightness" or a slight tingle, even though it’s still. Removing too much CO₂ might make the cider feel heavier or less dynamic on the palate.
• CO₂ can help create an inhospitable environment for spoilage organisms like bacteria or wild yeast. Even in still cider, having some residual CO₂ can help prevent microbial growth by maintaining a low-oxygen environment, which can slow down or prevent spoilage.
• If you aggressively remove all CO₂ through degassing or agitation, your cider will be more exposed to oxygen during racking, bottling, or storage. This can increase the risk of oxidation unless you take careful steps to limit oxygen contact (e.g., using inert gases like nitrogen to flush bottles or headspace).
• During bottling, a little residual CO₂ can help to maintain the cider's quality over time, especially if it's going to be stored for a while.
• For Sparkling Cider (including Keg?): You'll want a pump that handles the cider gently to minimize agitation and loss of CO₂, as well as to reduce oxygen exposure.
• For Still Cider: While CO₂ loss isn’t a concern, avoiding oxidation and keeping the cider stable during transfers is still important.
• Centrifugal pumps (like the Novax): Best for Still Cider: If you’re primarily producing still cider, centrifugal pumps are a cost-effective choice for transferring large volumes quickly. Drawback for Sparkling Cider: Not recommended for sparkling cider because they tend to release CO₂ due to high turbulence.
• Does the rpm or flow rate impact turbulance and agitation more?  = RPM has a more direct impact on sparkling cider by affecting CO₂ loss and oxygen exposure through turbulence. Lower RPM is preferable for preserving carbonation. Flow rate matters more for still cider because you're moving volume faster without worrying about carbonation, but care is still needed to avoid introducing oxygen.

Many thanks!

Caroline

[Vince Wakefield]

The words “self priming” are now being used to suggest the pump will prime itself from empty ( this is what it always meant) but now it also seems to mean you have to prime it “yourself” this is the case with the rover pumps I have, I have to make sure they and the feed tube both have sufficient liquid in them or it just won’t pump.

 

As for the size it depends on how much you are going to be pumping and the time you want it done in, bigger pump less time taken.

 

Hope this helps

Vince

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/85503fb1-b29d-4d2b-9bc3-4322ade9d851n%40googlegroups.com.

[John Were]

We'v got the 25M on a trolley. Like it a lot compared to our previous drill pump! Been using it a few years now for dry, sharp cider and seems fine. A bit of cavitation with CO2 in solution but it is CO2 rather than oxygen right? It was annoying having the short cable with an EU plug so changed it to a longer cable with a UK plug.

Part of the reason for the choice was trying to standardise our fittings diameters. Until you get into this game you have no idea that fittings can be so varied!

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/006701db06df%24798eb1b0%246cac1510%24%40ruttslanecider.co.uk.

[Cazza Blanco]

Hey John!

We're about to get fittings also, and the tanks are 20mm but as I understand it we can adapt to 25mm hose or a 20mm hose into the 25mm of the pump via the rught hosetail?  Do excuse any inexperienced questions here!

Good that it works well for your still, sharp cider and you've not noticed CO2 loss have a negative result! I suppose the CO2 loss of the higher rpm of the 20M might mean more CO2 loss, but maybe it's still not so very impactful?

If our tanks are optimized for 20mm (but we haven't ordered fittings yet), is it still just sensible to go for 20mm all over?  Or do you feel there is particular value in the lower rpm, higher flow rate of the 25M pump, despite its short EU cable and plug (which, technically, shouldn't be adapted?). 

Thanks!

Caroline

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[Cazza Blanco]

Hey Vince,

Ah, that's interesting, I was frowning at all the info on centrifugal pumps saying they aren't self priming, but then the novax claiming to be.  I figured a lot of the info was 10 years old, so maybe they were now able to be self priming?  Do you have experince with the novax series? 

Realistically we'll be moving 200l or so at a time between tanks, or direct to bottles or kegs. We're talking high hundreds, under 1000 this year, and ramping up each year if we can, but not crazy fast.  

We're not overly worried about speedfor speeds sake, as long as it's not painfully slow at the sub 7000 scale.  Unless it actually impacts the liquid a certain way.  Do you have a take on rpm and flow rates impacts on cider? 

Thanks!

Caroline 

On Sat, 14 Sept 2024, 20:51 Vince Wakefield, <vi...@ruttslanecider.co.uk> wrote:

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[John Were]

You can adapt fittings sure. And I am immediately getting above my comfort level. It is just nice to be able swap hoses and filler guns etc. easily. We bought a secondhand 600l variable capacity steel tank for c. £800 with old Mainz fittings and had to spend c. £200 changing the fittings so...

Bigger fittings make for faster transfer but that isn't a big deal at our/your level.

Don't worry too much about it is probably my best advice!

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CAJwe7vDHwRX59iNA1xr5P_Mjp7c4gUTbb%3DDJhGXcz3ACqEHkZA%40mail.gmail.com.

[MARTIN CAMPLING]

I have a 20mm Rover pump. Here's a picture of it in use.
It is NOT self-priming but it doesn't need much water in it to get it going so it isn't any real issue to me.
The solid pipework is standard plumbing stuff. with neoprene flexible connectors to attach it to the pump itself with stainless steel clamps.

[LL]

Hello Adam,

I personally regret not buying a pump of the type in the links below, with an integrated tri-clamp connection. It would avoid the hassle of connecting an adapter to the pump itself, and tri-clamps in my opinion seem to be the best solution for attaching hoses and filter houses etc. to your setup.

https://www.crafthardware.de/en/products/wurzepumpe-mp-15-tri-clamp-ausfuhrung

https://www.crafthardware.de/en/products/blichmann-riptide-pumpe-tri-clamp-version

Best
Love

[j...@joebarfield.com]

That volumetric idea is super cool.   Nothing is worse than wrestling with an overfilled 20L sack. 
I fill my sacks with one of those attachments that allows serving cider from a tube. I have to break the valve seal on the sack, but I’m usually transporting cider to a different location for convenient bottle filling. 

is available from www.brouwland.com as item No. 018.106.20 price 115
euros.

Rose

[j...@joebarfield.com]

Rover /Novax has a bypass option to avoid too much agitation. My pump burned out on first use, so I can’t tell you how well it works. 

I went back to gravity as my primary method of transfer. It takes some planning and creativity for 100L barrels.