Winter cider
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Claude Jolicoeur
Jan 16, 2017, 1:41:21 PM1/16/17
to Cider Workshop
This last weekend, I pressed my frozen-thawed apples to make what may be called a "Winter cider". I thought I could share this with the group...
Note that I am in Quebec (Canada), and this couldn't work for most of you who live in milder countries.
When I make my regular fall ciders, I blend my bittersweet apples with regular sharp eating varieties (Cortland, Liberty, and others which have relatively high acidities and low tannin content). And since my production of bittersweet apples still isn't high enough for my production of sharps, when I am finished, I am typically left with a number of bags of those apples that by themself wouldn't make a very good cider (to my taste anyway). So I leave these in an unheated shed where they slowly freeze as temperatures fall below zero in December. They eventually need to freeze real hard like rocks and at least a few nights at -20 or -25 are required so that freezing completely transforms the flesh of the apples.
We also have here some milder periods by mid-winter, where temperatures will go above zero for a few days. Last week was such, and the apples then started to thaw. For me, this is perfect timing for pressing. Ideally, the apples should have thawed enough so they have softened, but there should still be some ice inside as to get some concentration upon pressing.
For pressing, I used my press with a basket, and put the apples whole inside (no grinding). I do use a pressing bag inside the basket. I have done it also with my press in a rack-and-cloth configuration and this also works fine. I am still not sure of which of the 2 systems is better for this application... Pressing takes a loooong time... after 3 hours per load, there is still some juice flowing - but one has to stop at a certain point. Trying to go too fast won't work, pressure just builds up, but juice won't flow faster.
Interestingly, the juice coming out of frozen-thawed apples is perfectly clear. It also usually is of a redder color - it seems that freezing permits release of the skin color pigments. Also obviously, the process has an influence on pectins as pectinase isn't necessary for juice clarification.
Depending on if the apples were partly or almost completely thawed at moment of pressing, I get some concentration by this process. Typically, I like to organise things so I obtain a juice with an SG of between 1.085 and 1.090. This year's batch is at 1.089, with a TA of 10.7 g/L as malic acid, and pH 3.3. And the yield isn't so bad: from 100 kg of apples, I obtained 41L of concentrated juice. Without concentration, these apples would have given maybe 65L of juice at a SG of about 1.055.
Naturally, the more thawed the apples are, the more yield one gets, but at a lower SG, and conversely, harder apples will yield less juice but at a higher SG (for example for making ice cider).
I like to use the Lalvin 71B yeast (at half dosage) for this type of cider, because the initial TA being high, it is good to lower it a bit with such a yeast. And with such low pH, one can't count on MLF to reduce acidity. For example, my last year's batch had an initial TA of 12 g/L, and by the end of fermentation it had gone down to 8.7. Still high, but more easily manageable...
For fermentation, it is important to monitor and control things in order to make sure it doesn't go all the way to dryness. You'd then get a 11.5%ABV cider, but undrinkable as much too acidic. I figure that if I end-up with a TA around 8.5 g/L, I need about 30 g/L of residual sugar to balance this acidity. Hence, I'll manage my fermentation so that it stops and stabilizes at a bit over 1.020 SG. I will bottle the cider then, and add a bit of DAP to insure some in-bottle fermentation for sparkling. This is going to be a long fermentation, and most likely it won't be ready for bottling before the end of summer (last year's batch was bottled in August).
My target for this cider (when ready for drinking) would then be: SG 1.015, 30 g/L r.s. for medium-sweet, 9.5%ABV. It would have about 4 vols of CO2 for a good sparkling. And even though it will have 30 g/L r.s., this cider will taste like almost dry because the acid-sugar balance will be just right.
If you give yourself the trouble of riddling and disgorging, cork this with a nice cork and wire cage, I can assure you that if put side-by-side with a true expensive Champagne, the cider will get drank much more quickly... And even more so in a blind tasting.
Claude
Note that I am in Quebec (Canada), and this couldn't work for most of you who live in milder countries.
When I make my regular fall ciders, I blend my bittersweet apples with regular sharp eating varieties (Cortland, Liberty, and others which have relatively high acidities and low tannin content). And since my production of bittersweet apples still isn't high enough for my production of sharps, when I am finished, I am typically left with a number of bags of those apples that by themself wouldn't make a very good cider (to my taste anyway). So I leave these in an unheated shed where they slowly freeze as temperatures fall below zero in December. They eventually need to freeze real hard like rocks and at least a few nights at -20 or -25 are required so that freezing completely transforms the flesh of the apples.
We also have here some milder periods by mid-winter, where temperatures will go above zero for a few days. Last week was such, and the apples then started to thaw. For me, this is perfect timing for pressing. Ideally, the apples should have thawed enough so they have softened, but there should still be some ice inside as to get some concentration upon pressing.
For pressing, I used my press with a basket, and put the apples whole inside (no grinding). I do use a pressing bag inside the basket. I have done it also with my press in a rack-and-cloth configuration and this also works fine. I am still not sure of which of the 2 systems is better for this application... Pressing takes a loooong time... after 3 hours per load, there is still some juice flowing - but one has to stop at a certain point. Trying to go too fast won't work, pressure just builds up, but juice won't flow faster.
Interestingly, the juice coming out of frozen-thawed apples is perfectly clear. It also usually is of a redder color - it seems that freezing permits release of the skin color pigments. Also obviously, the process has an influence on pectins as pectinase isn't necessary for juice clarification.
Depending on if the apples were partly or almost completely thawed at moment of pressing, I get some concentration by this process. Typically, I like to organise things so I obtain a juice with an SG of between 1.085 and 1.090. This year's batch is at 1.089, with a TA of 10.7 g/L as malic acid, and pH 3.3. And the yield isn't so bad: from 100 kg of apples, I obtained 41L of concentrated juice. Without concentration, these apples would have given maybe 65L of juice at a SG of about 1.055.
Naturally, the more thawed the apples are, the more yield one gets, but at a lower SG, and conversely, harder apples will yield less juice but at a higher SG (for example for making ice cider).
I like to use the Lalvin 71B yeast (at half dosage) for this type of cider, because the initial TA being high, it is good to lower it a bit with such a yeast. And with such low pH, one can't count on MLF to reduce acidity. For example, my last year's batch had an initial TA of 12 g/L, and by the end of fermentation it had gone down to 8.7. Still high, but more easily manageable...
For fermentation, it is important to monitor and control things in order to make sure it doesn't go all the way to dryness. You'd then get a 11.5%ABV cider, but undrinkable as much too acidic. I figure that if I end-up with a TA around 8.5 g/L, I need about 30 g/L of residual sugar to balance this acidity. Hence, I'll manage my fermentation so that it stops and stabilizes at a bit over 1.020 SG. I will bottle the cider then, and add a bit of DAP to insure some in-bottle fermentation for sparkling. This is going to be a long fermentation, and most likely it won't be ready for bottling before the end of summer (last year's batch was bottled in August).
My target for this cider (when ready for drinking) would then be: SG 1.015, 30 g/L r.s. for medium-sweet, 9.5%ABV. It would have about 4 vols of CO2 for a good sparkling. And even though it will have 30 g/L r.s., this cider will taste like almost dry because the acid-sugar balance will be just right.
If you give yourself the trouble of riddling and disgorging, cork this with a nice cork and wire cage, I can assure you that if put side-by-side with a true expensive Champagne, the cider will get drank much more quickly... And even more so in a blind tasting.
Claude
Barrett Froc
Jan 17, 2017, 9:33:17 AM1/17/17
to Cider Workshop
Claude, that sounds fantastic! I will definitely hold some apples here in Saskatchewan for next winter. How do you keep the apples from spoiling before the winter truly sets in? Our latest apples here are early october, and even then, many of them have become soft or rotted on the tree if they're still on the tree. You must put them in a cellar or some sort to keep them cool? Maybe you can recommend a book to me, as your fantastic treatise doesn't speak all too much to apple care if one is going to store them.
I've been corresponding with a few people here about developing a true cider apple for our climate. We get lots of sun, really fast, which is the problem with most apples here, but they do manage to grow. We'll see what the university's fruit program comes up with.
Claude Jolicoeur
Jan 17, 2017, 12:51:01 PM1/17/17
to Cider Workshop
Le mardi 17 janvier 2017 09:33:17 UTC-5, Barrett Froc a écrit :
Claude, that sounds fantastic! I will definitely hold some apples here in Saskatchewan for next winter. How do you keep the apples from spoiling before the winter truly sets in? Our latest apples here are early october, and even then, many of them have become soft or rotted on the tree if they're still on the tree. You must put them in a cellar or some sort to keep them cool?
No I don't have any type of cellar. The apples I use for this are late and hard apples that I harvest late October and even sometimes into November - Cortland, Liberty, Prairie Spy, Sandow and a few others - and they all keep well through November and December until we get hard freezes. I just leave them in bags in an exterior shed, protected from the animals.
Martin Morsing
Feb 3, 2017, 7:56:06 AM2/3/17
to Cider Workshop
Claude, what is DAB?
Martin
Claude Jolicoeur
Feb 3, 2017, 8:47:07 AM2/3/17
to Cider Workshop
Le vendredi 3 février 2017 07:56:06 UTC-5, Martin Morsing a écrit :
DAP you mean. Diammonium phosphate, a yeast nutrient.
Claude
Claude, what is DAB?
DAP you mean. Diammonium phosphate, a yeast nutrient.
Claude
Martin Morsing
Feb 3, 2017, 9:26:50 AM2/3/17
to Cider Workshop
Right, thanks!
When you say "stop and stabilize the fermentation" you mean by racking? Why would it be necessary to add a yeast nutrient, is that because of the long fermentation? I'm just wondering since the fermentation is likely to continue to dryness why will it not continue after bottling without yeast nutrient?
Martin
Den mandag den 16. januar 2017 kl. 19.41.21 UTC+1 skrev Claude Jolicoeur:
Den mandag den 16. januar 2017 kl. 19.41.21 UTC+1 skrev Claude Jolicoeur:
Claude Jolicoeur
Feb 3, 2017, 9:59:42 AM2/3/17
to Cider Workshop
Le vendredi 3 février 2017 09:26:50 UTC-5, Martin Morsing a écrit :
Right, thanks!When you say "stop and stabilize the fermentation" you mean by racking? Why would it be necessary to add a yeast nutrient, is that because of the long fermentation? I'm just wondering since the fermentation is likely to continue to dryness why will it not continue after bottling without yeast nutrient?
Well, this process is described in length in my book. Essentially, it uses traditional fermentation management practices (rackings, low temperature) to insure a slow fermentation that will stick at a relatively high SG. Once the nutrients are depleted, fermentation stops even if there is some sugar left in the cider. The same approach may be used to make ice cider where over 130 g/L may remain in the cider.
DAP is used at bottling time in a micro-dosage (10 to 15 ppm) to insure just the amount of fermentation necessary to provide the sparkling.
Claude
DAP is used at bottling time in a micro-dosage (10 to 15 ppm) to insure just the amount of fermentation necessary to provide the sparkling.
Claude
dhma...@gmail.com
Dec 7, 2017, 4:04:20 PM12/7/17
to Cider Workshop
How big is your press? At 3 hours per load, that seems like a multi-day process...I froze a batch of crabs this year and when pressed the juice was bright pink like lemonade, but that still took a long time to partially thaw out and get even only about 1 liter of concentrate from about 10 lbs of fruit.
Claude Jolicoeur
Dec 7, 2017, 6:09:15 PM12/7/17
to Cider Workshop
Le jeudi 7 décembre 2017 16:04:20 UTC-5, dhma...@gmail.com a écrit :
How big is your press? At 3 hours per load, that seems like a multi-day process...I froze a batch of crabs this year and when pressed the juice was bright pink like lemonade, but that still took a long time to partially thaw out and get even only about 1 liter of concentrate from about 10 lbs of fruit.
In the basket press I can put about 18 kg which yields about 7L - so 3 pressings for a 5 gallon batch.
With the rack and cloth configuration, I can probably put a bit more per pressing.
So, yes, this is a 2-day operation if I want two 5-gal carboys.
Claude
Petr Vacek
Dec 11, 2017, 7:14:37 AM12/11/17
to Cider Workshop
Hello everybody,
I have following issue, maybe someone already tried to do the same. I concentreted some juice this season in the freezer. I obtained juice with SG 1,086 and due to the stabilisation rackings I lost some of the volume, naturally. I picked about 15kg apples during the weekend, which I want to freeze and after about one week try to press them semi-thawed. Because I have only those 15kg of apples, I will get maybe 3-4 liters of the concentrated juice. This I´d like to add to the batch with my older, already fermenting juice (SG nowadays 1,042).
Is this good, bad or ugly idea?
Cheers, P.
I have following issue, maybe someone already tried to do the same. I concentreted some juice this season in the freezer. I obtained juice with SG 1,086 and due to the stabilisation rackings I lost some of the volume, naturally. I picked about 15kg apples during the weekend, which I want to freeze and after about one week try to press them semi-thawed. Because I have only those 15kg of apples, I will get maybe 3-4 liters of the concentrated juice. This I´d like to add to the batch with my older, already fermenting juice (SG nowadays 1,042).
Is this good, bad or ugly idea?
Cheers, P.
Claude Jolicoeur
Dec 11, 2017, 11:08:29 AM12/11/17
to Cider Workshop
Yes, that is one possibility, but that new juice will revigorate the fermentation somewhat.
The ideal when doing that is to have variable capacity tanks, so the volume may be adjusted after each racking. In a fixed capacity tank like a carboy, you can add something that will fill-up the volume, like marbles for example.
Another possibility is to use a slightly smaller fermentation tank and to put the surplus in smaller (1L for example) container(s).
Claude
The ideal when doing that is to have variable capacity tanks, so the volume may be adjusted after each racking. In a fixed capacity tank like a carboy, you can add something that will fill-up the volume, like marbles for example.
Another possibility is to use a slightly smaller fermentation tank and to put the surplus in smaller (1L for example) container(s).
Claude
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