Cider yeast

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I visited my local supplier yesterday, and to my surprise they had a cider yeast.
This product is called "Safcider", by Fermentis - this is a French company, but the yeast is manufactured in Belgium.
It is a dry yeast, in a 5 gram package for hobbyists. From information on the package, it is Saccharomyces bayanus.
Anyone knows about it?
I bought a package for testing...
Interestingly, they don't recommend any rehydratation on the package - simply to "sprinkle into wort" - however, on the downloaded data sheet, there is a more elaborate rehydratation procedure.
http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/FT-SafciderEN.pdf
The recommended dosage is standard at 5g in 20 to 30 liters.
Claimed temperature range 10 to 30C.
Claude

[Andrew Lea]

Anything that calls itself "bayanus" gets my hackles up. It's a trade synonym for champagne yeast. In other words, flavourless and only fit for glucose wine makers who are fermenting to 15% ABV. It's probably EC1118 or Pris de Mousse repackaged. 

Yes I'm prejudiced ;-) YMMV

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Andrew Lea]

Apologies to the French speakers here. I was so annoyed I couldn't even spell properly. Prise de Mousse of course. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[CiderSupply.com]

I wont even try the French-i forgot it all in the US :-(

Am trying Lalvin C this year as is reported to reduce acid by 30 to 40% will see. But i too was wondering what the yeast discription mentioned actually meant where a named strain is listed first, then after it in parentheses (ex-bayanus)?

Best regards
Chris Rylands
Cider Supply, LLC

[Miguel Pereda]

The bayanus is used frequently in industrial ciders in Asturias

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le dimanche 16 octobre 2016 15:43:42 UTC-4, Andrew Lea a écrit :

Anything that calls itself "bayanus" gets my hackles up. It's a trade synonym for champagne yeast. In other words, flavourless and only fit for glucose wine makers who are fermenting to 15% ABV. It's probably EC1118 or Pris de Mousse repackaged. 

Andrew, why are you so much against EC1118?
For my part, I use it once in a while - for batches where I am after a "clean", fruity and fresh taste - and I am generally satisfied with the results. I admit there is nothing exceptionnal about it, but nothing either to complain so much about. I think it is generally a good yeast for the "New World" style of cider.
Claude

[cy...@knapek.pl]

Hi,

 

  I have recently done an amateur side-by-side comparision of some 13 "cider" yeast available in Poland, Safcider being the one of the samples.

 

Bottled clear for refermentation, after 6 months Safcider developed a compact yeast deposit, which I considered good as it was not easy to disturb, and even when disturned it caused only a minor haze.

 

It has fermented well to dryness at 16C; final TA below average - although not as low as with L71B.

 

However the resulting cider was judged rather untasty and flat, sort of a cheap wine type.

 

Below you can see some pictures, text in Polish though.

Safcider is #5 - it is the Fermentis brand re-packaged in the shop.

 

http://projektcydr.pl/?p=336

 

cheers

/Bartek

[Dhruv Jain]

I have used this "Cider Yeast" which is supposedly a special banyanus strain that doesn't require re-hydration, quite a few times. It produces a clean, fruity cider as stated on the packet. 

They don't charge extra for this compared to price of regular yeasts such as EC1118. I did try some expensive "Cider Yeasts" such as Cider House Select Premium Cider Yeast but did not re-order it as it appeared to be a marketing spin for which they charge more without adding any value to the Cider. 

dhruv.

[Mark Jenkinson]

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 8:43:42 PM UTC+1, Andrew Lea wrote:

Anything that calls itself "bayanus" gets my hackles up. It's a trade synonym for champagne yeast. In other words, flavourless and only fit for glucose wine makers who are fermenting to 15% ABV. It's probably EC1118 or Pris de Mousse repackaged. 

Yes I'm prejudiced ;-) YMMV

Andrew

I also understood that any so called cider yeasts were just rebadged wine yeasts and usually bayanus.

 

However I recently received an email from a company called Coccitech in Italy about their new Renaissance Cider Yeast "Fresco" (see attached PDF data sheet) in the email it says that it was specifically developed for cider and perry with the claim that it does not produce H2S (as opposed to the usual claim of low production of H2S on other yeast data sheets) and this alongside the usual claims of a strong fermentation, notable aromas and flavours, superior quality and performance with some cider makers winning gold and silver medals using it.

 

What is unusual here is that they say it is an S.cerevisiae "hybrid" that has been developed exclusively by natural breeding! I had a quick look at their wine yeast catalogue and none of the yeasts are described as hybrid.

 

While I've always enjoyed experimenting with different yeasts and still do to a lesser degree, my main production is wild and I think I would be wary of experimenting with a "hybrid" and introducing it to my "house yeast"

 

Mark.

 

[Handmade Cider]

Just to keep my eye on what is going on, I am in a rather dodgy Turbo Cider group on fb. I noted in the posts on there a couple of weeks back that some cider yeast has artificial sweetener added! Not sure how true this is, it seems implausible to me.

Denis

Denis France   www.handmadecider.co.uk   07590 264804  Company. No. 07241330

White Label – Champion Farmhouse Cider, Bath & West Show 2015.

Spring Surprise - Cider of the Festival Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2015 & 2014

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[Andrew Lea]

I'm afraid this is true Denis. People are selling what seem to be mixtures of yeast and sucralose, enough for a 25 litre batch. Quite a clever idea if you think about it. A little sucralose goes an awfully long way. 

Ideal for the Turbo Cider market. Not for the likes of most people here ;-)

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Andrew Lea]

> On 16/10/2016 23:12, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
>
> Andrew, why are you so much against EC1118?

I am against any "Champagne / Bayanus" yeast also being described as a
"cider yeast". It's a marketing nonsense which is based on a historical
misconception.

Going back some 30 or 40 years, nearly all cider in the UK was
'industrial' and the craft market as we now know it was virtually dead.
The mainstream industry was switching away from single strength pure
juice fermentations, and the major companies were searching for yeasts
which would cope with the fermentation of low-juice low-nutrient glucose
wines up to 15% alcohol to make their cider bases, which were then
diluted out for retail sale. Good flocculation and freedom from H2S
production was also important.

They discovered that the "Champagne / Bayanus" strains were ideal for
this, because they had been developed for the very challenging
conditions of secondary fermentation for sparkling wine production. As a
result they switched to such yeasts exemplified by EC1118, Uvaferm BC,
Prise de Mousse etc.

The yeast producers for their part realised that they were selling
significant amounts of such yeasts into the UK cider industry. They
therefore made the leap of describing such yeasts as "cider yeasts".
Which was true to an extent, but only for a very specific type of
industrial cidermaking. But that's where the myth took hold.

Later on, from the late 1980's, UK craft cider began a renaissance. The
yeast suppliers, with an eye to the new market, started to sell the
"Champagne / Bayanus" strains of yeast to the new producers as "cider
yeast" because they didn't distinguish between low juice glucose wines
and high juice single strength ciders. The new producers, who were
technically naive for the most part, didn't realise what they were being
sold. Hence the myth became self-perpetuating, and when new cider
markets started up in North America the myth became the new reality.
Since there are very few primary yeast suppliers but an awful lot of
third=party repackers, the myth is now firmly entrenched.

None of this would matter if the "Champagne / Bayanus" strains had any
positive advantages for single strength pure juice ciders. They do have
some benefits such as low nutrient requirements, good flocculation, low
H2S production and lower temperature tolerance. Their main drawback is
in flavour terms. They are aroma-neutral and tend to extreme dryness,
even bringing an unpleasant bitterness to an unsweetened cider. In my
view they do not bring any interesting flavour chemistry to the party. I
am not alone in thinking this. That's why I switched many years ago to
wild yeasts, whose fermentation brings along some more complex aroma
chemistry. Many good wine yeasts will do the same and will contribute in
a positive way to the fermented cider.

That's my view. Others may think differently of course!

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK

[Tim]

I suppose once mixed with top quality concentrate it would make little difference, commercial rubbish at its best.

 

Tim in Dorset

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[Wes Cherry]

Google translate does a decent job here:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://projektcydr.pl/%3Fp%3D336&usg=ALkJrhhhzSu38JfwO5qSmRRg5ZMlPKXrRg

Unfortunately the results table is a .png and not translated.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 17 octobre 2016 08:12:59 UTC-4, Andrew Lea a écrit :

I am against any "Champagne / Bayanus" yeast also being described as a
"cider yeast". It's a marketing nonsense which is based on a historical
misconception.

Thanks Andrew for these interesting historical notes.
It does explain things!
As of the fact that, as you say, Champagne yeast « do not bring any interesting flavour chemistry », you are undoubtedly right... But sometimes this is what a cider maker may want, as one may then have more of the natural fruit flavor. As of its tendency to go dryer than others, I don't really find so, and I have been able to manage batches that retained good residual sweetness with the 1118 yeast.
This being said, I also make most of my ciders on wild yeast - it is only once in a while that I may prefer to use a selected strain - actually most of the time it is when I do side-by-side comparisons of different yeasting strategies.
Claude

[Mark Evens]

The current edition of the (US) Brew Your Own magazine has an article on "Hard cider yeast selection" ( the cider being hard, not the selection, or then again....). Not sure if this link works for non-subscribers, but here goes:
http://mydigitalissue.com/publication/?i=343615&p=65
I guess "Easy cider yeast selection" is to leave it to nature!
Mark

[Nathan Shackelford]

The link doesn't work for non-subscribers. Thanks for sharing anyway, I'll try to track it down. I have been using mostly natural yeast this season, because the best results in 2015 were all with native yeast.

[Christina S]

Thanks for the link. A little summary: 12 dry yeasts and one liquid yeast (Wyeast 4766) were tested. The yeasts were either cider yeasts or wine yeasts (no beer yeasts). The base juice came from a carton. It was allowed to age for six months. There were five tasters who noticed quite a bit of variability in taste between them. Lalvin 1116 was their favourite. That is cool because that is what I just pitched into my cider. ;-)

[Old Spot]

I also did some tests a few ago, including several expensive liquid yeasts. 1116 won hands down and a Wyeast yeast was a complete waste. Worst cider ever. I was tossing it until I came decided to blend with some wild pear. That saved it but still won't share with friends.... 1116 all the way.

[Mark Evens]

The BYO article was more of a general discussion of the characteristics of a wide range of yeasts, rather than a comparative tasting. However, M2 was highly rated - see also http://www.thebeveragepeople.com/pdf/webwinepdf/AppleCiderYeasts.pdf
Mark