High Carbonation Ancestral Method

[Sam Robinson]

Bore da,

 

My name’s Sam. I’m making cider in west Wales. I’m new to the group and have been enjoying reading through some of the past discussions.

 

This year we’re planning to do some ancestral method style ciders. I’m working with slow wild yeast ferments. I was late racking so the ferments are a bit further along than I’d like for this time of year. 4 tanks between 1.009 and 1.0085 and 2 much drier at 1.0025. Still quite cloudy. We’re looking for a high level of carbonation, closer to a traditional method style if we can. Here’s what I’m thinking. Any thoughts or recommendations most welcome...

 

From what I can tell we’d be best to bottle between 1.010 and 1.008.

 

I’m taking some samples in to Aberystwyth University to be tested for grams of sugar per litre. Probably we’ll look to bottle with 20g of sugar per litre.

 

Since the fermentations are ahead of where we’d like to be, I’ll look to raise the sugar content before bottling by adding a honey solution to the tanks a day or so before bottling, using honey from a local producer here.

 

My two big questions are...

 

Is it ok to bottle before the cider has clarified? That is, will it likely clarify somewhat in the bottle?

 

Is it worth mixing up the lees in the tank before bottling to insure a good yeast count in the bottles for a better chance of a thorough in-bottle fermentation? When I’ve done Pet Nats in the past on a small scale using a siphon tube for the bottling, I’ve noticed that the final bottles tend to carbonate much more strongly having picked up a bit of the lees in the siphoning.  

 

We are planning on riddling and disgorging. So half way between ancestral and traditional methods really.

 

 

Hwyl!

 

 

Sam

 

 

 

 

 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 25 janvier 2023 à 03:27:15 UTC-5, swrob...@gmail.com a écrit :

My two big questions are...

 Is it ok to bottle before the cider has clarified? That is, will it likely clarify somewhat in the bottle?

I do insist in having a clarified cider before bottling for an Ancestral method. I think it is really important for minimising the amount of deposits in the bottles. However you say you'll do a disgorgment, so maybe in that case it isn't relevant.

 

Is it worth mixing up the lees in the tank before bottling to insure a good yeast count in the bottles for a better chance of a thorough in-bottle fermentation? When I’ve done Pet Nats in the past on a small scale using a siphon tube for the bottling, I’ve noticed that the final bottles tend to carbonate much more strongly having picked up a bit of the lees in the siphoning.  

For my part, I rack in a transfer vessel in which I blend/mix any addition (yeast, nutrients, SO2 or whatever) and from which I do the bottling. I surely wouldn't want to stir the lees back into suspension in the cider...

[Sam Robinson]

Many thanks for your response Claude. Good to have your perspective. Depending on how things go we might bottle one or two of the tanks fairly soon so I'll let you know how we get on!

Hwyl

Sam

[bombadilo]

Sam croeso,

i wouldnt use honey if you plan on selling your cider.

addition of honey is not in notice 162 so you'll be making a made wine in the eyes of HMRC and will have to pay duty on it all. (i'm assuming you are registered as a sub 7000 litre producer.)

i would wait for the cider to clear then prime with sugar before bottling.

a decent hydrometer will tell you how much sugar in your blend.

20g of sugar per litre equates to a rise of about SG 0.007 which is fine if using proper heavy duty champers bottles.

best of luck.

gimme a shout when they are ready - would love to try some.

gethin from gethin's cider is not far from you - give him a shout he's a font of cidery knowledge

cheers

phill palmer - palmers upland cyder

[Sam Robinson]

Bore da Phil,

Thanks for the heads up with the honey! I'll look into that. Notice 162 is certainly on my reading list now! And yes, we're a sub 7000L producer. Haven't registered yet as we haven't started trading. This is our first year producing on a commercial scale.

Thanks for your perspective Phil, much appreciated.

I've got a couple of good quality hydrometers. The only problem with hydrometers and SG is its a reading of total disolved solids, including soluable proteins etc., so is not always an accurate indicator of the actual sugar content, which can become dicey when dealing with high-pressure bottle fermentation, and hence the historical development of the 'traditional method'.

In case its of interest, here are the readings I got from my samples this week.

1- 1.0085 SG : 23.1 g/l

2- 1.0087 SG : 22.2 g/l

3- 1.00875 SG : 22.7 g/l

4- 1.009 SG : 23.7 g/l

5- 1.0025 SG : 9.4 g/l

6- 1.0025 SG : 8.8 g/l

Which is more or less what you would expect, with some interesting minor fluctuations.

I'll give you a shout when there's bottles ready Phil!

Hwyl am y tro!

Sam