Pear drop smell to perry...
Cheshire Matt
fermenting at too high a temperature or sat on the lees for too long.
But how much of a peardrop smell to a pear-smelling perry is
acceptable??
I've got one fermenter that is distinctly peary, the other isn't as
much. So how much is desirable, and will it continue? They've both
been fermenting at a steady rate for the last 4 weeks, and are in the
shed - so no room temperature warmth there.
I guess the usual solution: rack off and let time work its magic.
Unless keeping the peardrop in the perry is a good thing and should be
encouraged. You see: do I rack and halt it, thus preventing a
problem; or by racking would I be stopping something that could be
quite good??!! If only I had 2 batches showing the same symptoms,
then I could do both :)
Happy bubbling. Matt
Cheshire Matt
question I've posted on here in recent weeks, and again not had a single
response. It's not like I don't contribute - was it something I said,
or is Cheshire considered an out-of-cider area?? Hrrmmph :)
OK, so this may have sounded a dumb question, and I freely take my own
advice of experimenting and learning for next year, but has anyone had
similar experience with their perry?
It's just that last year it went quick, and I had the H2S issue. This
year, I think there's elements of improvement, nice and slow, plenty of
flavours building, but: do folks consider aldehyde/pear drops a fault or
a success in perry? In cider, it's a fault.
Views?
Andrew Lea
I am confused (which is one reason I didn't answer). But since you feel
unloved and rejected ;-) I will offer the following ....
Pear drops is not the same as acetaldehyde. Which have you got, or is it
both? Neither would generally be considered desirable in *finished*
perry. But this is still fermenting so it's a bit early to judge.
'Pear drops' (amyl acetate) are not really part of pear aroma. Again,
which have you got? I don't think most perry pears typically produce
pear-like aromas. What sort of pears are you using?
You seem to have 2 identical fermentations with different aromas. That
speaks to me of a microbiological problem. Did you add the correct
amount of SO2 for the pH (plus 50 ppm)? Are you using a wild or cultured
yeast?
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk
Jez Howat
I didn't have an answer either, but it was mainly because you're in
Cheshire!
Jez
PS - Love you really xx
Mark Shirley
> question I've posted on here in recent weeks, and again not had a single
> response. It's not like I don't contribute - was it something I said, or
> is Cheshire considered an out-of-cider area?? Hrrmmph :)
>
> OK, so this may have sounded a dumb question, and I freely take my own
> advice of experimenting and learning for next year, but has anyone had
> similar experience with their perry?
> It's just that last year it went quick, and I had the H2S issue. This
> year, I think there's elements of improvement, nice and slow, plenty of
> flavours building, but: do folks consider aldehyde/pear drops a fault or a
> success in perry? In cider, it's a fault.
>
> Views?
>
> Cheshire Matt wrote:
Matt, there is quite a bit of experience, and even some expertise in cider
and cidermaking on here (no, not me...), but perry is a very specialist
subject, where even the realtively small number of people who make it are
quite new to the game, and certainly claim little expertise.
Even some of the very best perry makers I've met and spoken to are by their
own admission 'rediscovering' old knowledge of a craft which had all-but
died out. This is why perry making is so interesting to those of us who are
now tentatively dipping our toes into the craft.
I have experienced pear-drops flavours in some of our perrys, but like you,
I don't have sufficient exprience of the process to know whether this is a
fault or not. It seems to sit well enough in the general flavour profile
that I'm not too concerned about it, and I've had some very positive
feedback from people who know more about perry than I do, so take from that
what you can...
As has been mentioned before with regard to the somewhat silly Pear Cider
anomaly, Perry is a very different drink to cider, perhaps so much so that
it's deserving of its very own discussion forum...... (ahem!)
Mark
http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/
Dick Dunn
> Sorry, no excuses, but I'm going to bump this thread. This is the 2nd
> question I've posted on here in recent weeks, and again not had a single
> response. It's not like I don't contribute - was it something I said,
> or is Cheshire considered an out-of-cider area?? Hrrmmph :)
Matt -
Some fair fraction of your contributions come through as html-only. This
may mean that some folks block them, or that they may require a decoding
step that people tend not to take...I don't know, but it bears a check on
your part. It's not all of your postings.
That said, I think the main reason for few replies is what Mark Shirley
noted, namely that there isn't much experience with perry. It's a lot
harder than cider.
You want to talk out-of-area? Cheshire is right next door to ciderland
compared to where I am!
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk
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Cheshire Matt
Andrew - sorry, I've confused you with my lax terminology again (cf
acetic and acidic...)
Starting at the begining, they're not perry pears - gawd knows what they
are, but they have a fair amount of tannin and an SG of 1058 (now down
to 1045 after 5 weeks). Trying for a wild yeast baby, but may have (er,
did) pitch with 1gram of commercial after we got to 2weeks and nothing
Yeah, I'm patient, but not patient enough :) But this "off-ness" is
exactly what I didn't want with the difficult pear-beasty, hence my
judgement call on a commercial kick. But as you see, after 3weeks, SG's
only dropped 10points in 3 weeks, which is slow for previous experience
with commercial pitching. So conscience clear.
Now to the problem solving: good point, they're still fermenting, so
there's time (esp considering what last years have turned out to be
given their bad start in life).
I think it is a peardrop smell (which is what I thought aldehyde was,
but now thinking back to A-level chemistry, it might be esters, ketones
or something else). Anyhoo - maybe irrelevant because of your comment
"you have 2 and they're different so microbiological".
Doh - checking my records :) one (the first fermenter to be filled)
didn't get the extra 50ppm, the 2nd and later ones did. And it's the
first that's worst. So we learn something :)
Thanks for the insight - and as Mark comments, there isn't a lot of
written experience, so let's put this one down as a learning point: the
extra 50ppm over the standard pH/SO2ppm for pears _does_ make a
difference, and it's needed.
Good stuff :)
Matt
BristolCider
answers! (Oh and I am from Cheshire originally)
I had the 'pear drop' smell from a recent batch of perry pears I
managed to get hold of, mostly noticable from the pulp, I sulphited at
150ppm. I too was quite worried but the smell seems to have abated
with fermentation, I am now more hopefull. I'm still hedging my bets
by not mixing this 60 litre batch with the other batches of potential
perry.
Roger
>
> - Show quoted text -
Cheshire Matt
Mendip/Chew Valley :)
OK - so the "stops after fermentation" seems to be something. So this
was a smell near the beginning, before fermentation? And 150ppm - did
that go natural after all that, if so, how long did it take to start going?
I'm thinking possibly an additional 50ppm to mine if it comes
back/doesn't go - but then I think (would like views) that my
fermentation is going pretty slowly, so don't want to risk making that
get stuck.
Matt
BristolCider
than from the milled fruit), which took 3 days to get going. I'm not
in the habit of opening up or sniffing FV's on a regular basis but the
smell is not really noticable after a further week.
The 150ppm was an educated guesstimate.
Roger
Ray Blockley
Andrew Lea
Acetaldehyde. Characteristic of dry sherry (the green not the caramel
note). In finished cider / perry, always a fault due to oxidation
(chemical or microbial). During fermentation, an essential transient
component generated by the yeast and rapidly reduced to alcohol, hence
unlikely to be detectable.
Pear Drops. Usually regarded as amyl acetate, sometimes ethyl acetate.
Sometimes 'nail varnish remover'. Name derives from a Victorian boiled
sweet flavoured with the simple acetates (esters). Often noticeable
during cider or perry fermentation (ethyl acetate is 'overproduced' by
yeast) but usually disappears on storage. If it re-appears after
fermentation, it's a product of lactic or acetic acid bacteria. In trace
amounts only it's beneficial to final flavour.
Pear Aroma. A specific group of esters only commonly found in pears
(e.g. ethyl dodecenoate) and characteristic of the fresh fruit. Not
actually so widespread in finished perries as might be supposed.
Nowadays widely used in synthetic form in flavoured 'pear' products.
Andrew
skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk
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From: raybl...@ntlworld.com
Date: 18/10/2010 10:46
To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Subj: Re: [Cider Workshop] Pear drop smell to perry...