White film

[trevster]

Hi all, I have several batches of cider going at the moment, some have
been bottled and no problems. However i have a couple of barrels with
a thin white film on top, one is so bad it looks like a sheet of ice
covering it. The cider underneath is fine and tastes okay. I have
tried skimming it off, racking and sulphiting but it returns. Any
ideas what causes it and how to get rid of it? It has an almost waxy
feel and looks like floating icebergs when broke up if you understand
what i mean.
Like i said it has not affected all batches and there does not seem to
be a patten with the apples and procedures used.

I will try and post a couple of pictures if i can work out how. Any
help would be greatly appreciated

Many thanks in advance of any help, Trevor.

[jez....@btinternet.com]

Trevster,

Sounds like wax from the apples (see previous threads from last September time).

On a technical level, I am not entirely sure, but if you receive this as an email then reply to it and insert the images as an attachment. Others will confirm whether this is the way to do it... Simples (I hope)

All the best

Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

[Andrew Lea]

jez....@btinternet.com wrote:
> Trevster,
>
> Sounds like wax from the apples (see previous threads from last September time).
>

I think to be honest by this stage it's much more likely to be a film
yeast than a cuticular wax. Film yeasts are quite greasy / waxy in
behaviour. Sulphite will help, but you also need to keep storage vessels
fully topped up and tightly sealed against air. Film yeast needs air to
thrive. Keep the air out and the problem should be self-limiting.

Andrew

[willfaulds]

Trevor,

I have experienced the exact same phenomenon with a batch of plum
cider I have recently been experimenting with. At first I treated it
as a film yeast and added some water to bring the level as high as I
could. However, I have since racked and bottled the cider, only to
find that the waxy coating has returned at each stage. I was under
the impression that film yeasts tend not to reoccur when an excess of
air has been removed from the equation?

Obviously we are dealing with different fruits, but I have been
curious about this for some time now and it is interesting to hear
that someone has experience the same sort of thing in an apple cider.
Like Jez I had come to the conclusion that it must be a wax derived
from the original fruit used. Saying that, I have not sulphited at
any stage and have gone through a totally wild fermentation, the only
additions have been some water at an earlier stage (as mentioned
above) and a small amount of sugar at bottling.

I have not found a particularly off-taste with the cider either -
although as it is my first time using plums I have little frame of
reference!

Charlotte

On Apr 2, 10:29 pm, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:

[Andrew Lea]

I am going to stick my neck out here and say that Trevster's problem is
probably a film yeast while Charlotte's may possibly be residual wax
from the plums (which often have more cuticular wax than apples not
least due to their lower surface area to volume ratio). But without
examination of actual samples it is difficult to be sure.

Here is a picture of a film yeast.
http://www.harphill.co.uk/filmyeast.jpg It has been pushed aside in the
top right quadrant with a finger to show how the film rucks up. True wax
films from fruit tend to be more sheet or plate like, not white in
colour, and don't ruck up in the same way (they are not cross-linked
'biofilms')

Andrew
www.cider.org.uk

[Nick Bradstock]

Hi All
Just to remind people that plum cider (or cider with plum as TSOs have
agreed it should be called since you can't make cider from plums) would be a
made wine and so not covered by the 70hl exemption. The exemption is for
cider, perry (or pear cider) only if you are going to sell it. Of course,
if it's not got apples or pears in it then it's plum wine even if made in
similar fashion to cider/perry.
If you are going to drink it all yourself or with guests and no money
changes hands then that's OK.
This applies to any alcoholic drink based on cider/perry with added other
fruit (or pulp, juice, etc, or flavourings - whether natural or not). See
HMRC Notice 162 for details:
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?
_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000207&propertyType=
document
If you do wish to sell such a drink then you must apply for a licence to
make wine and pay the relevant wine duty.
Sorry if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs (again) and you know all
this already but better safe than sorry....
Best
Nick

Trevor,

Charlotte

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[Andrew Lea]

Spotted the deliberate mistake? I meant "greater surface area to volume
ratio" in plums, of course! Because plums are smaller than apples.

Andrew

[charlottetraynor]

Hi Nick,

The "plum cider" as I am calling it, is indeed just for personal use,
I'm aware that it would be classed as a made wine from the tax point
of view (if I ever decided it was worthy of selling!). We make other
made wines, so extra licencing would not be a problem. You are quite
right though - better safe than sorry!

I have been terming it here as cider for the sake of ease; in our
house we tend to refer to it as 'Jerkum', which I believe is a
traditional English alcoholic plum beverage, made in a specific
country from a particular variety of plum - I am curious about the
history if anyone is any the wiser on the subject...? I am still
unsure of the process of the traditionally made 'Jerkum', but I have
been making mine as a 'cider', i.e. fermented, pressed plum juice.

Charlotte

On Apr 3, 11:09 am, "Nick Bradstock" <nickbr...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Hi All
> Just to remind people that plum cider (or cider with plum as TSOs have
> agreed it should be called since you can't make cider from plums) would be a
> made wine and so not covered by the 70hl exemption.  The exemption is for
> cider, perry (or pear cider) only if you are going to sell it.  Of course,
> if it's not got apples or pears in it then it's plum wine even if made in
> similar fashion to cider/perry.
> If you are going to drink it all yourself or with guests and no money
> changes hands then that's OK.
> This applies to any alcoholic drink based on cider/perry with added other
> fruit (or pulp, juice, etc, or flavourings - whether natural or not).  See

> HMRC Notice 162 for details:http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp....

[trevster]

Hi all, thanks for all your replies and advice. Andrew, i have looked
at the picture on the link you posted and it is not like the film i
have, mine is more sheet like and very very thin. I am now thinking it
may be wax.If it is wax is it just a case of continous racking or is
there something else i can do?
If i could post a picture i am sure someone would recognise the
problem.

Yours hopefully, Trev.

On Apr 3, 12:57 pm, charlottetraynor <charlottetray...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> > _nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000207&propertyType­=

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[jez....@btinternet.com]

Trev,

The group does have a flikr account. Follow the link from either the website (under resources) or from the page on the google group site.

You simply join that and upload the photo.

Failing all that, send me a copy direct and I can post it for you.

Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

[Cheshire Matt]

Does it look anything like this?

http://www.zen47350.zen.co.uk/cider/yuck1.jpg

This was diagnosed by folks as a film yeast. Ditto, no noticably
worse flavour to the cider, but as you can see, the fermenter wasn't
particularly well filled up. I've had other less serious invasions
which have been floating clumps of it.

[trevster]

Hi Matt, thats the one, exactly as my worst batch looks like. Did you
rack and sulphite and then top up to clear it up or did you have to
transfer to a vessel with a narrower neck to cut down on surface area?

Thanks for any advice, Trev.

[Andrew Lea]

Cheshire Matt wrote:
> Does it look anything like this?
>
> http://www.zen47350.zen.co.uk/cider/yuck1.jpg
>
> This was diagnosed by folks as a film yeast.

I would agree that is definitely a film yeast. In truth it is filmier
than the picture I showed, which is more of a crust than a film! But the
behaviour is still the same, rucking up into thicker areas when moved.
You can see those 'veins' clearly in Matt's picture. That is
characteristic of this sort of biofilm. The individual cells signal to
each other to join up into one big mat to maximise their surface area
exposed to the air. Evolutionary cooperation outweighs individual
competitiveness. Acetic acid bacteria do much the same (hence the mat of
'mother of vinegar').

Andrew

[trevster]

Thanks for the explanation Andrew, I only have wide necked barrels,
about 240mm across, can i skim off the worst, rack, sulphite and fill
to the brim therefore still having the same surface area but the
'thickness'of the air gap is minimal?
Or can i sulphite then sorbate as when stabilising a wine?

Kind regards, Trev.

[Andrew Lea]

trevster wrote:
> Thanks for the explanation Andrew, I only have wide necked barrels,
> about 240mm across, can i skim off the worst, rack, sulphite and fill
> to the brim therefore still having the same surface area but the
> 'thickness'of the air gap is minimal?

Yes. But Ray reported a problem recently I think (I don't mean his
'mould garden'!) which was more to do with poor sealing of the barrel
lids, thus constantly replenishing the air. Good sealing is at least as
important as size of air gap.

> Or can i sulphite then sorbate as when stabilising a wine?

I am not certain just how effective sorbate is against the various
species of film yeast. But in any case sorbate on its own in cider and
wine is unwise because of the risk of bacterial breakdown of sorbate to
off-flavours. Nowadays it is usually recommended to use sulphite and
sorbate together, not sorbate on its own. Whatever other chemical
inhibitors you use, keeping air out is key, because these are totally
aerobic organisms.

Andrew

[raybl...@ntlworld.com]

Andrew wrote:

> But Ray reported a problem recently I think (I don't mean his
> 'mould garden'!) which was more to do with poor sealing of the barrel
> lids, thus constantly replenishing the air. Good sealing is at least as
> important as size of air gap.

I'm hurt - I was quite proud of my mould garden! :-)

Yes, without meaning to "teach my granny..." it is important to remember that plastic and rubber seals need careful looking after and preparation before the start of the season.

These are the things I do with the seals on my plastic 60L barrels - and assume most folks do as well, but perhaps they are worth repeating for any "newbies":
1. Always wash the seal in hot water before use and leave it to soak for a couple of minutes in the hot water. This allows the seal to return to it's correct/original shape and profile, rather than the deformed shape produced by being in contact with the vessel. Let it go cold before fitting it into the lid. The rim *may* look flat and uniform, but if the seal has deformed to match one section of the rim and when you replace it, it seats on a different section of rim, you could have problems.
2. After emptying a vessel, remove the seal, wash and dry it, and store it separately in a dark, dry place. Light esp. sunlight will rapidly degrade most plastics and rubbers. Refit the seal into the lid only when you are about to use it again.
3. When a new barrel is purchased, remove the lid and seal ASAP, and follow (1) & (2) as appropriate.
4. Don't store vessels with the lids firmly clamped / screwed down.
5. Petroleum jelly (ie: Vaseline) is good for solving some sealing problems, but it can react with certain rubbers and plastics. Use with care and caution.

Ray.

[Cheshire Matt]

> 5. Petroleum jelly (ie: Vaseline) is good for solving some sealing problems, but it can react with certain rubbers and plastics. Use with care and caution.

:D Now, where is it that I've read something like that before...??? :)

Meanwhile, back to fermentation vessels....

Trev - I racked into same sized vessel, sulphited @ 50ppm, and I've
since tried the Ray Method of soaking the o-rings (having previously
just used vaseline). I think the incidence of film yeasts decreased,
but I had more problems with it on the perry FVs than the ciders.
However, I still had the same (if not more because of small loss from
racking) headspace on the FVs...

Cross-linking to another thread about SO2/nutrients etc I'm thinking
it had something to do with a combination of: the yeasts on the pears,
the commercial yeasts pitched, the nutrient added, the amount of
campden tablets added.

I'm not certain additional sulphiting @ 50ppm actually helped, which
makes me think it's some "residual" yeast and/or latent nutrient
problem - or in fact, large volume of headspace which the "left over"
yeast took advantage of. I even got a small CO2 canister for
inflating bike tyres to inject some C02 in, but that didn't seem to
help.

My learning points for next season are:
1) soak the o-rings in warm water for first fermentation
2) increase (double?) sulphiting for the pears after pressing (or
probably commit Andrew's table for sulphiting v pH to memory...)
3) don't use commercial yeast..
and probably most significantly
4) make sure the FVs are full right to the top

And then chew my fingernails down, like Jez did, waiting for natural
fermentation to start, and resist the temptation to pitch with
commercial yeast because I
_must_have_faith_the_traditional_way_will_work! :))

[jez....@btinternet.com]

Just to add a little trick I find works with the blue kegs (the ones with steel ring clamps). I now use bathroom sealant on the two overlapping lips outside the tank (which the metal clamp goes on to).

Its a little bit of an art as too much makes it impossible to seal the clamp, but does provide an extra seal.

All the best

Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheshire Matt <goo...@camelid.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 14:30:38
To: Cider Workshop<cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: White film

[Glenn Sutcliffe]

Hi all,

I had a problem with one of my blue barresl last autumn, the air lock
was not working but fermentation had started so the the seal was at
fault, I dried the outside of the lid/barrel with a hot gun, then
wrapped put duct tape around the seal, it worked a treat. This does
make periodic checking a bit more difficult but not impossible and it
was less messy than vaseline.

Glenn

[trevster]

Hi all,

Thanks for all your replies and advice, most helpful.

I have now racked, sulphited and topped up to the max and made sure
absolutely airtight. We will wait and see.

With one particularly bad batch i sulphited and sorbated, just to see
if there is a difference in the outcome.

One more thing to ask if i may,most of the batches were clear apart
from the film on top, now i have sulphited how long must i wait before
i can bottle, as long as the film does not return that is.My concern
is that if i bottle too early after sulphiting i will carry some of
the sulphite 'taste' over to the bottles.

Many thanks, Trev.

[raybl...@ntlworld.com]

Hi Trev,

I am no expert but would have thought that most of the sulphite would come out of solution and leave a protective "atmosphere" in the head space of the bottle? I would also have thought that bottling sooner rather than later is the best option if you have dealt with the film.

Cheers,

Ray.

[jez....@btinternet.com]

I would say you could bottle straight away, if you wanted.

[greg l.]

Personally I think it is always safer in the bottle once the cider is
ready. If you are having problems with ullage space it can ruin your
cider, but once in bottles it is just a matter of finding storage
space. Sulphite will gradually bind but that will happen however it is
stored. If you store long term and keep adding so2 eventually you will
have very high levels of total so2. I don't think so2 ever "comes out
of solution".

[Andrew Lea]

trevster wrote:

> now i have sulphited how long must i wait before
> i can bottle,

I'm with Ray and Greg. Bottle now. Don't delay. A bottle is a much safer
environment than any type of cask or barrel. The more you wait, the more
film yeast you will likely build up due to air exposure.

Greg is right that the SO2 will be present irrespective of container
type and will slowly bind up anyway. The free SO2 will thus be mostly
lost over time, so long as you are not adding silly amounts to start with.

Andrew

[trevster]

To everybody who has offered advice i am grateful, you really have
been of great help and it is very much appreciated.

All the best, Trev.

[Anders Klausen]

Hello Andrew,

I have a batch of pure Browns Apples Keeving.
Today the 6th Day i see a filmyeast-like White
layer on the top.

The Brown cap has not formed on top but as a very large sediment about 50% of the buckets volume.

When I pushed this film aside in, an attempt to rack it of, the film did not move as on the picture in your book page 98 but sticked to my finger as a slimy substance.

What can ti be?

I will now rack it into another container and se if the brown cap will form (as I have seen in other cases- last year my Browns Apples took 17 days to form a cap after second attempt.)

Hope to hear from you.

[Andrew Lea]

A picture would have helped.

It is still possibly a film yeast, but if the juice has not fermented it could perhaps be a mould.

Either way, rack away from it as you plan. If and when the cap rises, it will take the mould with it.

What is the pH of your juice? Browns Apple is quite acidic. It may not keeve well.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Anders Klausen]

Here is a picture:

The PH is mesured with a paper strip to be 3,1.

(Do you se the slime between my finger and the siphon)

-Anders 

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[Andrew Lea]

Hard to tell. Could almost be calcium pectate, given its apparent thickness. Are you sure the cap isn’t rising? I see you have a ring of bubbles around the perimeter, so fermentation is already starting. In that case it may just be best to leave it a couple more days without racking and see what happens? 

At pH 3.1 I think you will be lucky to get a good keeve. I’m assuming you added PME and calcium chloride. Does the data sheet give a recommended  pH range?

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 4 Nov 2017, at 10:49, Anders Klausen <aklau...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a picture:

The PH is mesured with a paper strip to be 3,1.

<IMG_2118.jpg>

<IMG_2117.jpg>

<image_123923953.JPG>

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Anders Klausen]

I do use the PME enzyme from Klercidre  bought at Vigopresses. I do't se any PH recomendations. 

The cap started forming after a few hours after adding the 1ml calcium for the test, that said it wasn't ready yet. So When i gave it 4 more hours to make another test I saw the beginning of a cap. Then I added the recomented doze of calcium chloride (0,9 ml per litre) and stired well.

 But cince then the cap has been very unstable and i decided to take action when i saw the white film on top this morning. 

Last year my Browns Apples did take 17 days to keeve. After I then thought it had gone wrong, I racked the good part and discarted the rest for other purposes. But to my surpprice I saw the cap reforming and I removed it When ready. So i wander if thats just What Browns do?!

Now the 30 litre bucket stands with a lid on without airlock.

Many thanks for your Quick reply.

-Anders 

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Lea]

From this data sheet the pH range of the enzyme is given as 2.5 - 6. 
http://www.vigoltd.com/files//ca7fefe1-6bbf-41cb-b214-a3a100a90165/94424%20CPME%20Instructions%20SEP2014.pdf

So at pH 3.1 it should still be OK. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 4 Nov 2017, at 11:46, Anders Klausen <aklau...@gmail.com> wrote:

I do use the PME enzyme from Klercidre  bought at Vigopresses. I do't se any PH recomendations. 

The cap started forming after a few hours after adding the 1ml calcium for the test, that said it wasn't ready yet. So When i gave it 4 more hours to make another test I saw the beginning of a cap. Then I added the recomented doze of calcium chloride (0,9 ml per litre) and stired well.

 But cince then the cap has been very unstable and i decided to take action when i saw the white film on top this morning. 

Last year my Browns Apples did take 17 days to keeve. After I then thought it had gone wrong, I racked the good part and discarted the rest for other purposes. But to my surpprice I saw the cap reforming and I removed it When ready. So i wander if thats just What Browns do?!

Now the 30 litre bucket stands with a lid on without airlock.

Many thanks for your Quick reply.

-Anders 

<image_6483441.JPG>

[Anders Klausen]

Hello  again,

Here is an update: 

This photo is taken 27 hours after I racked the Browns batch. I se little bubbles rising from the fermentstion, but many of them are just pasing thru the forming gel. 

This photo is taken 6 hours later. The gel is behaving like a lava lamp: some clouds are rising and others are falling. Verry mesmerising to watch. I put an airlock in.

Here is a photo of the surface: the white is CO2  bubbles.

From now on I will give it just time I think. For there is nothing else to be done? Adding more calcium ? Or less next time?

I have some Yarlington mill to keeve as well. And thats going verry good. I have no PH data on it because the juice was too dark to compair the colours on the paper strip. But i have been told Yarlington is easy to keeve.

So if the Browns Apple does not go well, could I then blend it with another batch of Yarlington? (I have lots of apples)