Inducing a Malolactic fermentation

[Barrieg]

This year I am going to try inducing a Malolactic fermentation in a batch of cider. I’ve trawled through as many posts as I can find here and it’s getting to the stage where I am more confused than when I started.  Advice please-

I make a champagne style cider which is suited to the more eastern counties mix of apples. I’ve been doing it on a small scale for 8 years and this year am scaling up a bit so I can sell some.

I have previously used various champagne yeasts and do the whole riddling thing. Usually the SG is around 1055 and the PH is about 3.0 and I haven’t yet got around to measuring the acid. But will start this year. I don’t sulphite but like use enough yeast to get a good fermentation started quickly. This year I have converted an outbuilding and insulated it so I should be able to keep the temperature up above 15C if needed.

I see that lots of people like Lalvin 71b and Andrew says Gervin gv11 is 71b repackaged.

I thought about using one of these as a main yeast, rather than adding it afterwards.  It seems though you can only get small sachets of either in this country, is that the case? Greg says you don’t need as much as for wine? Is getting it from elsewhere a risk? Difficult? I suppose I could build up a starter culture from a number of sachets. Is this likely to be difficult?

Alternatively I am also looking at Biostart Oenos which is distributed by Vigo and available in the right quantities and you put in after the first fermentation. Has anybody had any experience of using this? It seems to have been mentioned in earlier posts but not much recently.

Are there other products I should consider that are easily available here? 

Barrie

[Andrew Lea]

On 03/10/2012 11:47, Barrieg wrote:
> This year I am going to try inducing a Malolactic fermentation in a

> batch of cider. I�ve trawled through as many posts as I can find here
> and it�s getting to the stage where I am more confused than when I
> started. Advice please-

Forgive me if I misunderstand you but you seem a bit confused between
yeast and bacteria.

Lalvin 71B is a regular fermenting yeast (Saccharomyces sp) but it has
the happy property of also metabolising a proportion of the malic acid
with which it is presented. Hence it will partially reduce the acid of
high acid ciders during fermentation but only by 10 or 20% at best. It
does not convert malic acid to lactic (AFAIR but not double-checked); I
think it all gets converted to CO2 and other fermentation products. This
is not a malo-lactic fermentation, just a loss of some of the malic acid.

Biostart oenos is a culture of lactic acid bacteria (Oenococcus oeni).
These metabolise malic acid to lactic acid plus CO2 and if the
conditions are right they will do it totally. Hence the titratable acid
of a cider will drop by 50%, but it may take months to do so. They are
generally used on the cider at the end of fermentation.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[greg l.]

I think you're a bit confused between yeast cultures that reduce the
amount of malic acid (such as 71b), and MLFbacterial cultures which
convert all the malic acid. You can buy MLF cultures but the
quantities that you use are much smaller than yeast culture for the
same volume. MLF cultures are intended for the wine industry and it is
generally harder to get a MLF culture established in wine than cider
which is why I find that I can use a smaller amount than recommended.
For yeast culture I use the quantities recommended for white wine.

Greg

[Barrie Gibson]

Thanks you Andrew and Greg for clearing up the difference between 71b and
Biostart Oenos.
So it seems I have the choice of reducing the Malic acid by up to maybe half
or converting all of the Malic acid to Lactic acid.
Can I ask then what is the best way buy larger quantities of 71b or it’s
equivalent?
And does anyone here use Biostart Oenos or its equivalent and what do they
think of the result?

Barrie

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[Andrew Lea]

Not quite right on the figures. The yeast route will reduce the titratable acid by 10 or 20% max ; the MLF route by 50% max. I have used Biostart Oenos several times with success. It takes several months in a UK summer to do the job (temps above 17C). But it not only reduces acid, it also rounds all the yeast fermentation flavours so you end up with a much smoother and some might say more one-dimensional flavour. Only you can tell if that trade-off is for you. There is lots on this topic here now (and on 71B) if you search the group archive.

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[greg l.]

My own personal opinion is that I wouldn't want to drink a fully dry
cider that hasn't been through MLF. I really don't like the malic acid
flavour. But you can get a natural "wild" MLF free, and many people
prefer the flavours of wild MLF. The advantage of cultured MLF such as
the biostart oenos is the speed, reliability and predictability. If
you are trying to do mlf you need to keep so2 low which leaves your
cider unprotected. A cultured mlf means this period of low protection
is shorter, and you end up with a stable cider less likely to get
spoilage taints.

Greg

> our rules, and principles. Please seehttp://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

[CiderHead]

On Friday, October 5, 2012 11:14:29 AM UTC+1, Andrew Lea wrote:

... The yeast route will reduce the titratable acid by 10 or  20% max ...>

 

I use Lalvin 71B regularly and have also perform a few tests using it, measuring the changes in titratable acidty. I feel quite confident in saying that it will reduce acidity by 25-30%.

Cheers,

Martin

[Dick Dunn]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 03:32:54AM -0700, greg l. wrote:
> My own personal opinion is that I wouldn't want to drink a fully dry

> cider that hasn't been through MLF...

I'm struggling to understand your point. At heart, MLF is a matter of
changing one acid into another to reduce acidity. (There are side effects
of course, more below.) If the cider is in-balance wrt acidity at the
outset, MLF will soften it too much.

>...I really don't like the malic acid flavour...

Food chemists tell us that we can't distinguish between several food acids
(eg malic, citric) if they're diluted to comparable strengths. I don't
know how true that is for a trained palate.

>...But you can get a natural "wild" MLF free, and many people

> prefer the flavours of wild MLF. The advantage of cultured MLF such as

> the biostart oenos is the speed, reliability and predictability...

But as Andrew mentioned--and others of us have corroborated--the available
MLF cultures for winemaking are Oenococcus oeni which doesn't do a cider
any favors other than reducing acidity. It's not clear to me whether this
is the failure to develop the characters we associate with wild MLF, or
the development of some other character not helpful to cider, but the
result comes out like a so-so white wine.

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[greg l.]

On Oct 6, 2:06 am, Dick Dunn <rc...@talisman.com> wrote:

 

> I'm struggling to understand your point.  At heart, MLF is a matter of

> changing one acid into another to reduce acidity.  (There are side effects

> of course, more below.)  If the cider is in-balance wrt acidity at the

> outset, MLF will soften it too much.

> 

> >...I really don't like the malic acid flavour...

> 

> Food chemists tell us that we can't distinguish between several food acids

> (eg malic, citric) if they're diluted to comparable strengths.  I don't

> know how true that is for a trained palate.

Dick, the difference between malic and lactic is quite marked. I can't comment on citric but I don't think there is very much in cider. Malic acid has a very sour flavour, that's why it is used as a food flavouring and in "sour candy". To me there is quite a difference between cider before and after mlf in terms of sourness.

I wasn't trying to state a general rule, just a personal preference

> But as Andrew mentioned--and others of us have corroborated--the available

> MLF cultures for winemaking are Oenococcus oeni which doesn't do a cider

> any favors other than reducing acidity.  It's not clear to me whether this

> is the failure to develop the characters we associate with wild MLF, or

> the development of some other character not helpful to cider, but the

> result comes out like a so-so white wine.

I don't use mlf to reduce acidity in fact in a warm climate, low acid juice is a problem and the acidity reduction of mlf is a disadvantage.

I use mlf to get rid of the sour flavour and stabilise my cider. Microbial stability is an underrated benefit of mlf, malic acid is a food source for many undesirable microbes.

My experience of cultured mlf is that at 20C it proceeds quite rapidly taking about 2 weeks. After that there is a period of about a month in which the cider tastes quite flaccid and one dimensional, but then the flavour improves markedly and rapidly and becomes more complex than before. I have no explanation for why there is this flavour "lull" but for me the cider ends up much better than it was. I am stating my opinion where you seem to be trying to establish an objective fact.

Greg

[Tony Lovering]

Andrew

If you heated a tank to 18 deg C and inoculated the cider with the culture how long would it take to smooth out the cider. I know it all depends on the acid content etc.. but would it be 'quicker than just summer temps?

Cheers