Vigo 'in bottle carbonator'

[Gethin ap Dafydd]

Hi guys.

Has anyone had any experience with Vigo's 'in bottle carbonator'?
Does it work well etc?

Many thanks.
Gethin.

[Ben Fairall]

Does it only do one bottle at a time? and do you know how much they are?

I suspect if you are having to pasteurize and filter as well it may be more cost effective to contract it out.

I would certainly be interested to see other peoples thoughts though.Sorry my reply has not been more constructive.

Ben

[Gethin ap Dafydd]

Hi Ben.

They sell a 2 head and a 4 head unit. Not sure how much Vigo charge
but Winegrowers sell the 2 head for £1355.

In the long run I reckon it would be cost effective due to the
logistics of getting to a contract bottler from west Wales.

Cheers.
Gethin.

[Andrew Lea]

I have not used one but I think you need to see one demonstrated and
enquire about the total turnaround time per bottle. I was under the
impression it is a matter of minutes. That may be fine if you only have
a few dozen bottles to do but might become an unrealistic chore if you
have thousands. You will also need a chiller, a separate filler, and a
pasteuriser if the product is to be sugar-sweetened. It all begins to
add up, whereas contract bottlers have all that stuff lined up to do the
job in one place.

Given their superficial advantages and simplicity compared to the
professional counter-pressure filler-carbonators (which are at least ten
times more costly and need a lot of TLC), I am surprised that these
units have not become more popular than they are. That in itself makes
me think they don't really stack up for full commercial use, only for
test applications. Would be interested to know what you find out!

Andrew


--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Gethin ap Dafydd]

Vigo quote the unit can achieve a reasonable level of carbonation.
I'm waiting for them to get back to me with names of producers that
use the unit so I can try their product to see for myself what the
level of carbonation really is.

I remember watching "Hugh's Three Hungry Boys" many moons ago in which
they visited a cider/winemaker in Cornwall who were using the 4 head
carbonator for their Cornish Black cider, I think the producer was
Polgoon Vineyard? Might just place an order for some of their cider
or email them for info.

Yes, already have a filler, chiller and pasteuriser.

[Ben Fairall]

What type of pasturiser do you have? I guess the other problem is if you pasturise them capped and carbonated then some may explode and if you pastrise cool and then fill then yeast is likly to be get in?

[Andrew Lea]

On 15/05/2012 08:34, Gethin ap Dafydd wrote:
> Vigo quote the unit can achieve a reasonable level of carbonation.
> I'm waiting for them to get back to me with names of producers that
> use the unit so I can try their product to see for myself what the
> level of carbonation really is.

Presence and level of carbonation can make a *huge* difference to the
perception of cider flavour, and it's far more complex than just adding
bubbles. The dissolved CO2 is an ingredient in its own right. And there
is considerable flavour interaction with other cider components. I was
reminded of this the other day when I opened an old bottle of naturally
conditioned cider of my own. It was not over-carbonated by any means,
but this particular sample had a much better flavour balance when I left
it a day for the overt carbonation to be lost. I guess it was just back
to CO2 saturation level by then.

What I am saying is that not all ciders benefit by overt carbonation,
but they may benefit by being saturated with CO2. Each cider has to be
treated on its own merits. Conversely Coca-Cola is nothing without its
bubbles. The interaction of CO2 with the overall product profile is
quite a complex thing.

For myself I have used a Sodastream unit to roughly carbonate test
blends of ciders prior to contract bottling to be sure that the sugar /
acid balance I choose is enhanced by carbonation and not ruined. You
really can't tell that if you only judge the still ciders. The merit of
the unit you speak of, since it works on a single bottle basis, is that
it should enable you to do that and to tweak your blend to get the best
out of carbonation. But someone else's cider may behave rather
differently to yours.

[Andrew Lea]

On 15/05/2012 09:40, Ben Fairall wrote:
> I guess the other problem is if
> you pasturise them capped and carbonated then some may explode and if
> you pastrise cool and then fill then yeast is likly to be get in?
>

There was an extensive discussion here on this topic, Henry's law and
headspace vacuity as related to carbonation level and temperature about
a year ago(?). It'll all be in the archives. Microbiologically, the only
safe course is to carbonate and cap first and then pasteurise. Yes there
is a transient pressure increase but at 65C (which is what you need for
tank pasteurising cider) it is a 'manageable risk'. That is, you need to
be prepared for a few exploding bottles and take appropriate precautions
to handle that, but it is a workable proposition. Plenty of people do it
routinely.

[Gethin ap Dafydd]

My pasteuriser is a basic home-built stainless tank with a false
bottom, 3kw element and a thermostat, holds about 30 bottles.

Yes I agree, CO2 changes the flavour a lot same as temperature, have
you ever tried a bottle of lager left to warm up and go flat!? Not
great!

Would I be correct in saying that CO2 is acidic?

I've been experimenting with gallon batches of cider using the Canada
Dept of Agri as described in your book Andrew. My first two attemps
blew off the caps but the last two have pasteurised fine without any
explosions. Headspace and bottle pressure before pasteurisation are
very important.
I've built a jig which clamps onto the bottle where I can insert a
pressure transducer and temperature thermocouple which connect onto a
chart recorder. It leaked during the last pasteurisation so my
readings werent accurate, I will present my results to the workshop
once I've ironed out the creases in my jig.

Janet from Vigo got back to me with details of a cider producer in
Cornwall who uses the in-bottle carbonator, I will give him a ring and
ask his opinion.

[willfaulds]

Hi Gethin,


Did you ever find out more about the carbonator - good/bad? What decision did you make in the end?