Cider Making in New Zealand
Kristofski
I'm wanting to get some advice on some Vintage English Cider Apple
Varaties I'm about to plant here in New Zealand. I managed to acquire
15 variaties from my partner's father, who is originally from Bristol.
They include:
• Stoke Red – Bitter Sharp
• Kingston Black – Bitter Sharp
• Harry Masters Jersey
• Tremlett’s Bitter – Bitter Sweet
• Michelin - Bitter Sweet
• Northwood - Sweet
• Chardon ?
• Sweet Coppin – Sweet
• Yarlington Mill – Bitter Sweet
• Ellis Bitter – Bitter Sweet
• Somerset Red Streak – Bitter Sweet
• Alfriston ?
• Browns – Bitter Sharp
• Bisquet Cidre ?
• Sidero ?
I have so far planted 500 root stocks in a temporary bed, which I
intend to chip bud in the summer and then relocate to my farm next
winter.
I was planning on dividing the variaties up evenly among the number of
root stocks but am unsure if this is the right thing to do as some
variaties may be more important than others. Could you please give me
some advice on the variaties I have and how I should go about planting
up my orchard.
Thanks.
AWa...@aol.com
Stephen Hayes
trip there. where are you based?
500 rootstocks is a big adventure. I remember when I ordered 1,000.
To be bold, I wonder what age you are? If you are the right side of 40 and
patient, I would seriously suggest planting maybe no more than 3 trees of
each variety and giving them 3 or 4 years before deciding , or rather
observing, which does best in your soil and microclimate? I say this as one
who has done, and is doing, a lot of chopping down or grafting over trees
that seemed like a good idea on limited information 15 years ago. We have
often reflected that restraint and observation of a limited experimental
orchard planting for a few years after we began in 1992 would have led to
better final planning and planting. Also think long, hard and often about
your planting distances. Too far apart, you lose per-acre potential, too
close together-all kinds of trouble when they start to grow into each other.
To get this right, you need to make a difficult calculation regarding soil,
stock, scion, shape and microclimate. Easy to get wrong, hard to fix by the
time the trees are grown. Lot to be said for a limited experimental planting
to let the trees teach you.
A few other things I have learned the hard way
Kingston black is a sickly and unreliable tree-biennial, prone to scab and
brown rot, biennial, very short stalk makes thinning difficult. Juice good
if the tree condescends to crop for you. Would you rather have 3 gallons of
ultra marvellous KB cider or 15 gallons of pretty jolly good Dabinett,
Yarlington and HMJ cider from an equal number of trees? That's the real
choice that faces me in my orchard this year. Last year it was half a box of
KB from 14 trees versus 2 boxes per tree from YM and a box per tree from
Dabinett and HMJ. Kingston Black is a crap cropper on my land. Plant a
couple to see if they do for you, don't be bamboozled by the glowing praises
of its legendary flavour to plant more
PS I know its heresy, but when I have had pure KB cider, even my own, I
didn't think it was that outstanding, and 2 bottles I bought were
undrinkable.
Dabinett and Harry Masters Jersey are compact, even small trees and reliably
annual cropping with excellent balanced bittersweet juice producing high
quality cider. I would go heavy on these 2 particularly and I suspect other
growers may agree-certainly at least 30-40% of your total cider planting.
Dabinett in particular is the 'nobody ever got fired for' cider apple.
Tremletts bitter is early and biennial. Good apple though, Maybe 5-8% of
your planting, especially if you want some bitter to blend with the sweet
and acid of early cull dessert and Bramley.
Yarlington Mill crops well probably 7 years in 10, but it crops VERY well
and is a delightful tree. Gets quite big. If I were starting out again I
would plant probably 20-25% each of YM, HMJ and Dab and the remaining 25-30%
Le Bret plus a few odds and ends.
I love Le Bret in a sweet blend, but it is scab prone, needs a whiff or 2 of
fungicide. Having said that, lovely softly tannic sweet juice and a VERY
annual and heavy cropper. Very similar apple to sweet Coppin and sweet
Alford, with which it was mixed up in a nursery some years ago.
By all means plant small numbers of various odds and end varieties for
diversity, but I strongly advise to major on a smaller number of varieties
of proven reliable croppers with decent bitterweet flavours to the fore.
One more thing-plant a few perry pears.
hope that makes sense. Anyway, better make a good job of it as YOU MAY WELL
SEE ME down your way in a coupe of years as I plan to revisit my beloved
Kiwi if I can get a sabbatical break at age 55.
Stephen
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Kristofski" <matt.kr...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 8:42 AM
To: "Cider Workshop" <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Cider Making in New Zealand
> Hi there,
>
> I'm wanting to get some advice on some Vintage English Cider Apple
> Varaties I'm about to plant here in New Zealand. I managed to acquire
> 15 variaties from my partner's father, who is originally from Bristol.
> They include:
> � Stoke Red � Bitter Sharp
> � Kingston Black � Bitter Sharp
> � Harry Masters Jersey
> � Tremlett�s Bitter � Bitter Sweet
> � Michelin - Bitter Sweet
> � Northwood - Sweet
> � Chardon ?
> � Sweet Coppin � Sweet
> � Yarlington Mill � Bitter Sweet
> � Ellis Bitter � Bitter Sweet
> � Somerset Red Streak � Bitter Sweet
> � Alfriston ?
> � Browns � Bitter Sharp
> � Bisquet Cidre ?
> � Sidero ?
>
> I have so far planted 500 root stocks in a temporary bed, which I
> intend to chip bud in the summer and then relocate to my farm next
> winter.
> I was planning on dividing the variaties up evenly among the number of
> root stocks but am unsure if this is the right thing to do as some
> variaties may be more important than others. Could you please give me
> some advice on the variaties I have and how I should go about planting
> up my orchard.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
>
MARK SHIRLEY
|
|
greg l.
early varieties such as tremletts bitter are the way to go. The longer
the fruit hangs the more potential problems can occur. Once it is
harvested you don't have to worry about birds, scab or insects.
I make cider from a good NZ variety, Kidd's orange red. Not a cider
variety but a good reliable bearer, delicious apples and a decent
cider if you add some other apples for tannin, (even without).
from Heather
Actually, the nursery is claiming Tompkins King Apple good for eating, baking, and making cider. Is that true?
Heather
> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 02:09:28 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Cider Making in New Zealand
> From: breadandb...@gmail.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Dave
>
> I make cider from a good NZ variety, Kidd's orange red. Not a cider
> variety but a good reliable bearer, delicious apples and a decent
> cider if you add some other apples for tannin, (even without).
Pippin. It makes a lovely juice that is so fruity it almost tastes of
bananas.
Based on this I thought to make some single variety cider.
I found it undrinkable!
Andrew Lea
experience of growing Kingston Black is unfortunate compared to that of
many! It works well for me, for instance. Whether the cider is all it's
cracked up to be (as a single variety) is another question. Most of the
(English) varieties you list are of 'vintage quality'. Michelin isn't
and I should forget it unless you are just interested in fast fermenting
bulk with no other distinction! There are no consolidated lists of
cider varieties and what they do overall but if you can get hold of Liz
Copas 'Somerset Pomona' http://www.lizcopas.com/pomona.html you will be
well served. Also the Marcher Apple Network Vintage Cider Fruit CD
contains all the data from the old Pomona's (even up to Bulmers Pomona
of the 1980's) http://www.marcherapple.net/vfruit.htm
However, a point not touched on yet is that of blend balance. Assuming
you want to put all those apples together in your final blend, then I
think a good balance is 40% bittersweet 40% bittersharp and 20% sweet.
This balances out the tannin and brings down the pH to good cidermaking
levels. Bittersweets or bittersharps on their own generally do not make
a good cider. Although your cidermaking is long in the future, you need
to plan the orchard balance now and not create a legacy which you will
come to regret!
Andrew
www.cider.org.uk
Stephen Hayes
Hi again
Andrew Lea wrote
> Kristofski, I shan't take issue with Stephen except to say that his
> experience of growing Kingston Black is unfortunate compared to that of
> many! It works well for me, for instance. Whether the cider is all it's
> cracked up to be (as a single variety) is another question. Most of the
> (English) varieties you list are of 'vintage quality'. Michelin isn't and
> I should forget it unless you are just interested in fast fermenting bulk
> with no other distinction! There are no consolidated lists of cider
> varieties and what they do overall but if you can get hold of Liz Copas
> 'Somerset Pomona' http://www.lizcopas.com/pomona.html you will be well
> served. Also the Marcher Apple Network Vintage Cider Fruit CD contains all
> the data from the old Pomona's (even up to Bulmers Pomona of the 1980's)
> http://www.marcherapple.net/vfruit.htm>
Andrew is right to say this, note I did not say don't plant KB, just don't
plant more than 2 or 3 trees so you can see if they do well for you. Its
outstandingly and consistently the worst performing tree in my orchard. Our
soil is very light, it may do better in a heavier soil or with irrigation
Totally agree you MUST get Liz Copas' Somerset Pomona, you'll love it.
all the best
Stephen
Trevor
south mountain chain has many micro climates. I am in Wairarapa and
all your mentioned varieties grow well. Even KB! I would just plant
and observe. My Somerset Readstreak has been a very late blossomer but
after 7 years is now producing good apples. And we are not frost free
here. There are quite a few cider makers around. I suggest you look
out for locals in your area for advice. Cheers Trevor
On Sep 9, 6:15 pm, "Stephen Hayes" <hayes...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Hi again
>
> Andrew Lea wrote
>
> > Kristofski, I shan't take issue with Stephen except to say that his
> > experience of growing Kingston Black is unfortunate compared to that of
> > many! It works well for me, for instance. Whether the cider is all it's
> > cracked up to be (as a single variety) is another question. Most of the
> > (English) varieties you list are of 'vintage quality'. Michelin isn't and
> > I should forget it unless you are just interested in fast fermenting bulk
> > with no other distinction! There are no consolidated lists of cider
> > varieties and what they do overall but if you can get hold of Liz Copas
Kristofski
I've been doing some research on the varieties I have but can't seem
to find anything on a some of them. Can someone please give me some
information on:
• Chardon
• Alfriston
• Sidero
• Bisquet Cidre
Also thanks for the recommended books, I will definitely be purchasing
them.
Another question, where would the best place for me to find recipes
that include the varieties I have? I plan to start experimenting this
season as I already have two trees per variety.
Thanks again,
Matt
On Sep 9, 9:50 am, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> Kristofski, I shan't take issue with Stephen except to say that his
> experience of growing Kingston Black is unfortunate compared to that of
> many! It works well for me, for instance. Whether the cider is all it's
> cracked up to be (as a single variety) is another question. Most of the
> (English) varieties you list are of 'vintage quality'. Michelin isn't
> and I should forget it unless you are just interested in fast fermenting
> bulk with no other distinction! There are no consolidated lists of
> cider varieties and what they do overall but if you can get hold of Liz
> contains all the data from the old Pomona's (even up to Bulmers Pomona
Andrew Lea
>
> Can someone please give me some
> information on:
> � Alfriston
> � Sidero
> � Bisquet Cidre
>
These varieties are not known in the UK so you may not find much help on
this list I'm afraid!
>
> Another question, where would the best place for me to find recipes
>
Oh dear, I always bristle when I hear the word "recipe" in a cider
context. In my view (craft) cidermaking is about processes not recipes.
The reason is that the raw material (apples) varies so much from place
to place and from year to year (even for the same varieties in the same
place) that even if you had a 'recipe', it would turn out quite
differently every time you made it (unless you are fully industrial and
you adjust and control all aspects of composition and fermentation very
closely). In this way cider is quite distinct from brewing with its
storable and much better defined ingredients. You wouldn't ask a grape
winemaker for 'recipes' (though you might ask him about blends) - so in
the same way you don't ask a cider maker! And we have already given some
hints on blends!
At the risk of a shameless plug, look at my website or my book if you
want to know more about cider 'processes' (though mine is not the only
way and others have different views!).
Good Luck
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk
Claude Jolicoeur
> Thanks everyone for your replies, were very helpful.
> I've been doing some research on the varieties I have but can't seem
> to find anything on a some of them. Can someone please give me some
> information on:
> • Alfriston - old English cooking apple
> • Sidero - would probably be a Spanish cider apple with this name
> • Bisquet Cidre - French bittersweet grown in the Pays d'Auge, Normandy. Sometimes classified as sweet, so must be mild with only slight bitterness.
Claude