Acid juice and MLF

[pigsinpingle]

Hi,

I have a gallon of a Cox/Laxton's Superb pressed on the 4th October,
which was sulphited and had Lalvain EC1118 added but no nutrient, has
this week turned crystal clear, the lees have settled white on the
bottom and there is little movement through the airlock.

The sg is 1003, the original pH was 2.8. I have reduced the head
space and would like to try and achieve an MLF.

Should I leave it on it's lees (I gather for no longer than a month)
and ensure the temp is above 15 but not higher than 20 and hope?

I do have some bittersweet to add later if an MLF doesn't occur.

I tasted it and I'm amazed that I have made the stuff, it is pretty
sharp but clean tasting.

Thanks,

Glenn

[jez....@btinternet.com]

This is very interesting. I was under the impression that a natural mlf, if it was going to take place, would occur as temperatures rose to 15c in the spring...

So, in those terms Glenn, you have a while to wait... however, I am not so sure that I am correct on this any more.


Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

[Andrew Lea]

At pH 2.8 I would say you would be very lucky indeed to get a natural
MLF taking place. Even the cultures do not *guarantee* to work so low.

My suggestion is to leave it as you propose and then taste after a month
and see if you love it any more. It would be a shame to mess around with
something good that you might learn to like. And there is a place for
sharp ciders eg with food. Or you might sweeten it before drinking.

If you then decide that you really must drop the acid you can buy a
small MLF culture (Malocid) from Brouwland and see if that will do the
trick. But even at 15 - 20C it will take several months. There is no
guarantee that blending a bittersweet will help, though it might. With a
culture you will have a much greater chance of success because you know
for sure that you are introducing an inoculum.

In some ways you are being a bit hasty perhaps. It's only the beginning
of November. Traditional ciders do not undergo MLF till May or June -
hence it is sometimes known as the 'blossom fermentation'! That is
probably largely a temperature effect though.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[pigsinpingle]

Yes Jez that is what I have read, but could you manipulate the temp to
imitate spring? Is there any way that the cider would know?!

Glenn

[pigsinpingle]

Many thanks Andrew, I will follow your advice. If I love it more in a
month - or not, I take it that I must rack it at that time?

Could one imitate spring and force a MLF with ciders of a higher pH?

Glenn

[Andrew Lea]

pigsinpingle wrote:
> Many thanks Andrew, I will follow your advice. If I love it more in a
> month - or not, I take it that I must rack it at that time?

There is no "must" about anything in cider making. There are no rules,
only guidelines. "Whatever floats your boat...."!!

However it is generally recommended to rack off the primary lees within
a month or two of fermentation finishing, to avoid yeast death and
autolysis leaching back unpleasant flavours into the cider. But some
autolysis appears to be useful to allow ill-defined nutrients to leach
back to nourish the MLF bacteria (or you can add fresh tomato juice!).

In an earlier post I confessed to leaving ciders on the primary lees for
6 months or more, at a time in my life when I was rather busy and
otherwise distracted. It didn't seem to do any harm that i could
ascertain but I may just have been lucky. Certainly I would not plan to
do it nor recommend it in general.

>
> Could one imitate spring and force a MLF with ciders of a higher pH?

There are many factors. Temperature and pH are only two of them. Not
least is whether or not sufficient MLF bacteria are present, plus the
poorly understood growth factors. So, sure, a higher temperature and a
higher pH will tip the balance in your favour, but still cannot be
guaranteed. For instance, the ML bacteria may be transmitted by flying
insects which are more active in the spring - maybe some inoculation
occurs during spring racking? Maybe there really *is* a physical
connection with blossom?

Rather like wild yeasts, a lot seems to depend upon a local population
building up over time. For ciders (and some wines) racked into old oak
casks, the ML bacteria build up in the pores of the wood in succeeding
years and provide a virtually certainty that MLF will proceed if
temperature and pH requirements are met. For a 'clean' environment it's
more of a chance - did the right organisms drop in on the fruit or from
other sources such as fruit flies (Don't Discount Drosophila!)? You
can't tell. That's why winemakers now rely more on ML cultures just as
they do on cultured yeasts - it provides certainty and controllability.
As with the wild yeast story, it's a monoculture again and so tends to
be a bit one-dimensional. But if your goal is to drop the acid, cultures
work and they do the job. They may not confer any complex flavour
characteristics which the wild organisms do, but they won't give nasty
off-flavours either.

Am I sitting on the fence here? Yes. Because, apart from adding a
culture, I cannot say (a) do this, (b) do this and then (c) do this and
you will be guaranteed a wild malo-lactic fermentation. It ain't that
simple.

[Dries Muylaert]

Question is, does he need a spontaneous malolactic. For wild yeast
there is something to be said. It is imo necessary for keeving because
in the first stages it will not be as violent as a cultured yeast, and
because it can give a better flavour. I never had a bad result with
wild yeast. But it could happen. Than again, what is a spontaneous
fermentation. I was told that in France the yeast strains on and in
apple varieties are carefully examined before the variety is let loose
on the market, so I presume apple varieties carry different strains of
yeast, and are partially selected on that criterium. Cock and bull
story? wouldn't know, but it doesn't seem impossible if you make the
comparison with fe. grapes: different varieties carry different yeast
strains. So, spontaneous is perhaps an illusion. And as pointed out in
other postings, there is something like 'the house yeast'.
But a spontaneous malolactic? This can really turn bad. Some strains
consume more acid than others, some will give ropyness. As a way of
getting rid of acid in a controlled way I think one should use a well
proven culture. To be on the safe side. A personal choice.
And there are other ways of getting rid of acid. Wouldn't know if
cooling helps as it does for tartaric, but chalking certainly does, as
does of course blending.
And indeed, a cider high on malic makes a splendid basis for a
cream-cider sauce.

[from Heather]

I've been reading a lot on apples, trying to figure out what I might plant. The WSU cider research center offers scions, and there is a local Home Orchard Society that does, too. There is a nearby nursery that sells rootstock. That same nursery also sells 4x1 trees, such as Spartan, Yellow Delicious, Lodi, Summer Red, and Jonagold all in one tree. That got me thinking since I don't have very much land, and my taste and my husband's taste in apples differ. It got me thinking about this method. Has anyone tried it, and what do they think? Would you recommend it, or advise agaist it? How hard is it do graft something like this, or should I ask a nursery to do a custom graft?

Heather

---

Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live. Learn more.

[Dries Muylaert]

It works very well. But.
- you should take care that all grafts are free from proliferation
disease, can be a problem with grafts from inexperienced friends and
dodgy suppliers, the latter should be horsewhipped
- make sure that all varieties have about the same way of growing, so
no strong grower with a slow one, no apical dominant guys with hanging
growers.
- try to make a tree with varieties with the same 'possible diseases'.
So fe. scab sensitives with scab sensitives, it will make treatment
easier. Take care not to include within one tree a variety that will
not take a treatment used for the others. Schone van Boskoop fe.
doesn't like copper treatment.
- give the middle stem at least a year after planting, and wait until
the first 3 or 4 forks where you are going to graft are one to 2 cm
diameter diameter. Use a split graft, not an English one.

Inform well on grafting. It's rather technical, but once you get the
hang of it, it's really fun.

[Stephen Hayes]

2 questions Heather

 

1) is it a good idea to grow apple trees which are grafted to multiple varieties?

 

2) is grafting hard?

 

to both questions I would answer, no (but it depends!).

 

I  have posted a number of videos on grafting on my youtube channel, which yoyu can link to from my web site www.fruitwise.net, for what these are worth. Alternatively, J G Garner wrote a very good book ' The Grafter's Handbook' on grafting. Grafting is no harder than mending a puncture on a bicycle, but just like mending a puncture, you have to do it right..

 

The saddle graft is very easy if you have stock and scion of similar diameters, various other methods also work if done correctly.

 

I don't recommend 'family trees' (grafting multiple varieties one one tree) but it can be done if you want multiple varieties and are short of space.

 

regards

 

Stephen

[Andrew Lea]

Dries Muylaert wrote:
>
> on the market, so I presume apple varieties carry different strains of
> yeast, and are partially selected on that criterium.

Rubbish. This idea has been discredited at Long Ashton over 50 years ago
- and also for grapes.

> But a spontaneous malolactic? This can really turn bad.

Hang on. Most traditional UK and French ciders (bittersweet / highish
pH) go malolactic spontaneously and it isn't always bad. That's where
the spicy flavours come from.

> Wouldn't know if
> cooling helps as it does for tartaric, but chalking certainly does, as
> does of course blending.

No cooling doesn't help in cider. Potassium and calcium malate are
soluble, potassium and calcium tartrate aren't. If you add chalk to
cider the calcium remains in solution and gives a chalky taste. You can
add potassium carbonate but again you get a salty taste if too much is
added.

[Melanie Wilson]

 On grafting I'd recommend getting somebody to show you rather than try and read up on it, if you possibily can.  I'm not hugely experiance, but I've noticed those with patience and good motor skills, used to other crafts tend to find it easy. Those who are inclinded to rush and have no craft experience find it hard.  Much like any craft.

 

If you can only read, read one book and stick to it initially. I read several & got lots of conflicing advice. Neither seemed to perform better than the other !

 

To the advice given, I'd `add, be careful you don't place a scion upside down to rootstock. Don't give up on grafts too early, I had some come into leaf about 4 weeks ago, only to lose them again, I've been told that some rest for a year.

 

I'm quite a fan of fthe potential of the family tree, because you can squeeze more into a space. But I feel they are often sold as an easy way to have several cultivars in a small space easily. The issue I have is with the easily. Family trees tend to need careful pruning in order to keep the cultivars balanced, so rather than being good for the novice, they are more advanced forms. I've seen some fantastic family trees in experianced hands and I envy their dedication, but from what they say dedication & careful watching and care is needed.

 

I'll have and will continue to created family trees, but mainly to have scion wood safe and to hand, not for high level fruit production. For greater amounts of fruit I'd go for single cultivar trees, I'm going to stick my neck out here & day definatly if my aim was high fruit yield for cider I'd do this, but must make it clear that is a gut feeling rather than the voice of family tree cider cultivar dissapointment ! (ie I've never tried it either way with cider apples)

 

You mention you & you husband have different tastes, does this mean he favours desserts ? Here I would be more tempted, particularly for home consumption, to use a family tree, because it allows you the possibility of having cultivars together that are ripe at different time thus keeping the fruit bowl fresh for longer, reduced numbers are not such an issue here as there are only so many apples one can eat at once. I use this method for pears, which are the prefered fruit of one of my daughters and I am fighting her desire to litter my apple garden with pesky pears ;) She grafts her pears, very sucessfully. (anyone know any good really late dessert pears ?)

 

If you want a lot of different trees in a small space cordons might be a better option to explore ?

 

Mel

[from Heather]

wow, that has given me a lot to think about. I like your use of the word "family tree", because it reminded me that first and foremost, that is what it would be. Honestly, if I get serious about cider, I'm not going to be able to grow them at my current house, so that would make them trees for the family. I prefer sharp or tart apples that go well with kind of an aged nutty cheese, though my choice in drink is more on the sweet side. My husband prefers his apples a little milder. We both dislike soft apples, and this red delicious thing showed up in our house (maybe from his parents?), and I realized that it was rotting in the fruit bowl the other day.

You also brought up pears, and maybe a 2 in 1 would actually be good for that. I love boscs, especially with gingersnaps (does that word translate to British English?). I was kind of feeling guilty planting two pear trees when really one would be enough if you could get around the pollinization problem.

The nursery I mentioned apparently teaches classes on grafting in March.

Anyway, I can't plant anything for awhile, anyway. The property has an overcrowding of evergreen trees that are a danger to the house, and I'm willing to bet the pH is way too acidic to grow. The lawn sure doesn't.  

Lots of things to ponder about, and lots of time to do it in.

---

From: Melani...@dragonflight.co.uk
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: grafting
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 21:41:33 +0000

Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live. Learn more.<BR

---

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Melanie Wilson]

A couple of other things to consider Heather. When I stay stick to one book initially, I don't mean only consider one grafting method, the first method I was taught involved cutting upwards whilst holding the  scion or rootstock close to your body, being female shaped I was a bit concerned about my sticky out bits and soon ditched that. It isn't a good method for kids either IMHO. It IS probably quicker if that is your priority.

 

Also you mention about having nowhere to plant yet, I tend to keep my grafts in a pot for the first year, so you can still get going before your land is ready. I'm considering using airpots this year for grafts , as in theory this will give faster growth & allow them to be kept in a big enough airpot for about 4-5 years. Airpots also prevent the roots balling. . as far as I'm aware having talked with the supplier a lot, nobody is using them for apples so there is some risk if apples turn out to hate them. Not sure why they would but beter mention that :)

 

You mentioned a red apple neither of you like, it is possible to rework trees to another cultivar. I've not done this sucessfuly yet (ie my budding won't take off if sucessful until next year, and I'm booked on a course to rework old trees in Jan, but I think somebody, maybe Stephen ?, has experience here

 

Defo go for the class if you can !

 

Mel

 

 

 

This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of
this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the
Company, unless specifically stated. You should not copy, forward or
otherwise disclose the contents of this e-mail or any of its attachments
without express consent

[Dries Muylaert]

>
> Rubbish. This idea has been discredited at Long Ashton over 50 years ago
> - and also for grapes.

So it is cock and bull. Remarkable how long these stories keep alive.
Saw it even stated in a recent publication sold by Brouwland.

>
> > But a spontaneous malolactic? This can really turn bad.
>
> Hang on. Most traditional UK and French ciders (bittersweet / highish
> pH) go malolactic spontaneously and it isn't always bad. That's where
> the spicy flavours come from.

I am hanging on. Believe me, if you once had slime instead of cider in
your bottles, so no curing possible, the last thing you want to do is
to take another chance with a spontaneous malolactic. If I would
decide to have a malolactic I certainly would take advantage of the
goodies the specialised shop sells.
I'm not really in favour of a malolactic in ciders, i think it looses
the fruitiness. But that's an opinion. I appreciate it in beers and
grapewines. >

> > Wouldn't know if
> > cooling helps as it does for tartaric, but chalking certainly does, as
> > does of course blending.
>
> No cooling doesn't help in cider. Potassium and calcium malate are
> soluble, potassium and calcium tartrate aren't. If you add chalk to
> cider the calcium remains in solution and gives a chalky taste.

With solution you mean the calcium malate? Salty-chalky taste? There
is, Ithink, a way around that, based on the limited solubility of
calciummalaat but it involves precise measuring, calculation and
batching up the cider in the procedure. Getting totally rid of the
malate, I believe it's impossible but Ibelieve it can be brought to a
level that won't be tasted anymore, even in ciders. Anyway, you are
quite right to point there are risks involved even if I merely drew
attention to the possibility.
I was advised in illo tempore by my cider mentor not to use over 1,3
gr/l chalk in mosts containing mostly malic acid, so the
deacidification potential of chalk in cider is limited, if not
marginal. But there is indeed a taste difference between 9 and 7
acidity expr in tart acid.
Blending is indeed the best solution, but I would even take my chances
on watering before I would let a wild malolactic loose on my cider.

[Dries Muylaert]

She grafts her
> pears, very sucessfully. (anyone know any good really late dessert pears ?)

Some ideas
can be held in cold to:

november: doyenne du comice
december: jean d'arc, jules d'airoles
januari: bronzee d'enghien
februari: josephine de malines
maart: bergamotte d'esperen
later, mostly for kitchen use

[Melanie Wilson]

>Some ideas
can be held in cold to:

thanks Dries

[from Heather]

You mentioned a red apple neither of you like, it is possible to rework trees to another cultivar.

 

Mel



Sorry, that was a little American humor there. One of the most popular apples sold in grocery stores is called Red Delicious. It is solid red with some purple striping. It is very beautiful to look at, but it tastes quite bland.  I've been reading up on the history, and I guess it was very good at one point, but though the years, and supermarkets not cold storage it because they don't have the room. This is what they tend to give schools to feed children, and it is at any mini-mart that if you are attempting to eat some fruit. Thing is, it is actually considered a good cider apple, but sometimes I find it dry and mealy. I think it is because it isn't in cold storage. Basically, growing up, marketing told me that this is the apple that I wanted, but the older I got, the more I realized the marketing was wrong. Luckily, much better apples are taking it's place now, such as Fuji, Gala, and Breaburn. But the Red Delicious has found it's niche, and I don't think it is going to go away any time soon.

Heather

 

 

 

---

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Peter Ellis]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&q=http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp%3Fsectioncode%3D7%26storycode%3D65651%26c%3D3&ct=ga&cd=rRTgOd80GkM&usg=AFQjCNFLUTADWDy51PYYUscguleVRF3sDw

--
Peter Ellis

Porec Sales Office - The Exacta Building - over the road from Lidl
Croatia Property Services
A trading name of Peter Ellis Grupa d.o.o.
Selling in the new Tuscany!

Tel +385 (0) 92 247 5879 Personal
+385 (0) 981 82 62 40 Eng
+385 (0) 52 44 94 34 Eng/Hr/It/De

peter...@croatiapropertyservices.com
in...@croatiapropertyservices.com

http://www.croatiapropertyservices.com
http://croatiaproperty.proboards16.com