Mild bittersharp vs medium bittersharp vs full bittersharp

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Hello everybody, 

In the description of the different apple varieties according to cider production, we often see the term mild, medium or full in front of the apple type (bittersharp for example) to describe, I guess, the intensity of the flavour or the caracteristics of the apple.

What does it exactly means? How can you caracterize an apple has mild, medium or full??

I have discovered 2 wilding that seens to have very interesting caracteristics for cider production and I would like to caracterize them completely.

Apple 1 

OG : 1,047

T.A. : 0,65%

Tannins : Slight bitterness with a good astringency

Apple 2 

OG : 1,049

T.A. 0,5

Tannins : Important bitterness with a mild astringency

These apple looks like bittersharps, but how to fully caracterize them?

Thank you very much! 

[Andrew Lea]

On 21/10/2015 17:38, luis.ga...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> What does it /exactly/ means? How can you caracterize an apple has
> /mild/, /medium/ or /full/??

Mild, medium or full (in the context of bittersweet or bittersharp
apples) refers to the amount of "tannin" in the apple. The "tannins" are
responsible for bitterness and astringency. The strict traditional UK
definition of a bittersweet or bittersharp apple requires a "tannin"
level > 2 g/L. This may be determined from chemical analysis see
http://cider.org.uk/tanmeths.htm

However, because these analyses are complex and difficult to do outside
of a laboratory, descriptors such as mild, medium and full are quite
often a subjective impression by the person who is tasting the apple,
and without any chemical analysis.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Richard Anderson]

If you can, compare the full bitters in a Medaille d'Or or Vileberie with a mild bittersweet like Yarlington Mill, Dabinett or Brown Snout. This would give a sensory range to compare tannin.

[Wes Cherry]

I would posit that it's far more than tannins are that what a cidermaker is looking for. Rather, it's a rich tasting apple that is interesting in the final product. For example, a Kingston Black, Harry Master's Jersey or Dabinett have a way more interesting and satisfying flavor profile than say a hyper tannic Medaille d'Or, Trembletts or Vilberie*, or even a mild bittersharp like Porters Perfection. Tannin seems to correlate with flavor and "vintage quality", but the more indicative nature of a good cider apple is deep rich flavor. Tannins, either harsh bitter or soft astringent give body and "edges" to the flavor profile, but it's more about flavor.

This is my evolving understanding - it seems the standard LARS bitter/sharp classification aren't the only dimensions suitable to describe cider apples.

-'//es Cherry
Dragon's Head Cider
Vashon Island, Wa US
www.dragonsheadcider.com

*re Vilberie, we are amazed how an apple that tastes like a crushed up Tylenol in iodine solution lends wonderful resinous anise flavor when it is done fermenting. 5-10% Vilberie can do wonders for certain blends.

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 7:44 PM, Richard Anderson <rhand...@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> If you can, compare the full bitters in a Medaille d'Or or Vileberie with a mild bittersweet like Yarlington Mill, Dabinett or Brown Snout. This would give a sensory range to compare tannin.
>
>
>
>
>

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[Andrew Lea]

On 24/10/2015 07:16, Wes Cherry wrote:
> I would posit that it's far more than tannins are that what a
> cidermaker is looking for. Rather, it's a rich tasting apple that

> is interesting in the final product. .....

>
> This is my evolving understanding - it seems the standard LARS
> bitter/sharp classification aren't the only dimensions suitable to
> describe cider apples.

I absolutely agree with Wes. The standard LARS classification is just
that, a simple starting point for cataloguing cider fruit. It is over
100 years old now, and the methods we use to get the figures are even
older.

Even at the time, a century ago, it was recognised to be inadequate,
which is why Barker popularised the use of the additional term "vintage
quality", which had been introduced by Hogg in the 1880's. Barker
intended it to cover that indefinable something which marks out a great
cider apple from the also-rans. This can only be judged by fermenting
the apples and assessing the resulting ciders. And repeating the
exercise on many occasions, so that a consensus can be built up. One
result on its own is not meaningful.

In many ways we haven't come much further forward that we were pre WW1
in understanding "vintage quality". Although we do have the techniques
now for relatively routine flavour analysis in ciders in suitably
equipped labs, they have not been applied to this particular problem for
over 30 years. Or if they have, the information remains captive to the
companies who have funded it and is not in the public domain. [This is
an increasing problem in all food research nowadays, where commercial
considerations are paramount and where 'market forces' rule.]

What little evidence there is points to the fact that "vintage quality"
cider apples contain larger amounts of flavour precursors (maybe in
glycosidic form) which are liberated by yeast and bacterial action
during fermentation and maturation to give a greater flavour complexity
that you would get from "ordinary" cider apples. So it is not the fruit
alone which matters, but also its interaction with other microbes during
the cider making process. Exploring this would make a great PhD topic,
if the funding could be found!

[greg l.]

No-one could deny that there is a lot more to cider than just tannin. Before the internet and resources like cider workshop there wasn't much information available on the best cider cultivars, for people outside the main cider growing areas. An apple tree takes 6-10 years to start bearing a good crop, so for a lot of people getting good tannic cider fruit has been difficult. I think it is generally true that some apple tannins will improve most cider, though cider without tannin can be excellent, so looking for local apples that have some tannin is important. Thankfully due to the efforts of people like Andrew and Jez there is a lot more information on good cider cultivars available now, so hopefully in future getting tannins from non-cider fruit might be less important.

One problem is that not all "vintage quality" cultivars do well in all areas, I know in Australia a lot of people report trouble with Dabinett but maybe that is just the clone we have.

Greg

On Saturday, 24 October 2015 20:30:45 UTC+11, Andrew Lea wrote:

[Andrew Lea]

On 24/10/2015 23:42, greg l. wrote:

>
> One problem is that not all "vintage quality" cultivars do well in
> all areas,

This is a very good point. Our European cider apples have been selected
over many hundreds of years to do what we want in our climate. They are
adapted to cool damp summers and slightly frosty winters. If you try to
grow them in more extreme climates you may be disappointed.

In Tasmania or the Pacific NW of North America they grow well because
the climatic conditions are similar to SW Britain or NW France. But
outside of those areas they may not. In the US at least, there are some
'heritage' cider varieties (and even some new ones like Redfield) which
can do well in appropriate local climates.

> I know in Australia a lot of people report trouble with Dabinett but
> maybe that is just the clone we have.

No it's more fundamental than that. Dabinett needs more winter chill
than you can give it in VIC or NSW, to set adequate numbers of fruit
buds. You can't change its physiology.

I have suggested before (and have been blown out of the water for it!)
that New World cider makers should start to select their own New World
cider varieties instead of slavishly following what we Europeans have
been doing for hundreds of years. I repeat my suggestion! Claude has
made a good start in this. He has selected a local seedling which he
calls Douce de Charlevoix, which crops well in his climate and seems to
have good cider making potential as a medium bittersweet. Many more
people should be doing this sort of thing.

Sadly in my recent travels to cidermakers in North America and Australia
I have met nobody who is following his example (if I have, and I've
forgotten, then I apologise!). But it seems to me that if the New World
cider industry wants to be in it for the long term, they will have to
start to select their own specific cider apples, not rely on cold stored
dessert apples nor on the uncertain performance of European varieties in
unsuitable climates. Of course it will take time, and if you're only in
the cider business to make a quick buck while the trend lasts, then that
sort of long-term thinking will have no role ;-)

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

Hi Andrew, the North American Fruit Explorers Club has lots of members out combing old abandoned orchards looking for good cider apples and these explorers seem to stop at every tree they see to taste the fruit and are grafting maniacs so the search for better cider apples may be more of a grassroots thing. Lots of crabapple and applecrabs around to choose from for bittersweets but they just dont seem to get big enough for a commercial operation to want to pick. We also have a potential bittersweet on our farm from a wildling but its growing under some other trees and we have to wait until we get it out in the sun to see if its real or only has tannins under such horrible stress. Our other problem is getting tannins quantified, I looked at purchasing all the reagents for the tannin assay and it would run about 300$ and the reagents dont have much of a shelf life. Some of the universities are publishing papers with tannin levels so somebody is doing it but we dont have an institute here so far that tests apples for tannins that I have found. The other thing for the commercial guys is that the names of the famous euro cider apples have been splashed all over every cider story over here so when people look for "real" cider they see these names and think that is the only key to finding good cider and are still influenced by grape wine in looking for a single variety cider, most people think blending as done in grape wines is done by using cheaper grapes for the bulk and adding a few good grapes to give it a flavor boost. 

Are any of the American cider varieties grown over there? LIke Stayman, Winesap or Goldrush? I know your markets are flooded with golden delicious, which actually when grown here is a nice dessert apple picked ripe from the tree, and a WV native also. 

[Tom Oliver]

Dear Andrew and Mountain Jack,

I think that there are possibly many apple varieties, discovered and still undiscovered, native to or at least, have been around long enough, to give a starting point for apples particular to a locale and suitable for cider, to feature in ciders made across the North Americas.

The potential of such terroir apples and then the longer term breeding thereof for the future is maybe something that will come with time given the new relish for cider at present flourishing.

Eliza Greenman epitomises the wonderful zest for discovery of old or yet to be documented varieties of apple.

http://elizapples.com

As far as i know, we have no apples like Stayman or Winesap in the UK, and yes i wish we did, the qualities these apples, when fermented, bring to cider are wonderful.

The breeding of apples suitable for cider has always been pushed along by man. Historically somewhat more slowly but in modern times, maybe the need for results quicker due to financial pressures mean it will be hastened along but hopefully not at the expense of the taste and flavour characters in ciders.

On 25 Oct 2015, at 10:22, WV Mountaineer Jack <wvm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Andrew, the North American Fruit Explorers Club has lots of members out combing old abandoned orchards looking for good cider apples and these explorers seem to stop at every tree they see to taste the fruit and are grafting maniacs so the search for better cider apples may be more of a grassroots thing. Lots of crabapple and applecrabs around to choose from for bittersweets but they just dont seem to get big enough for a commercial operation to want to pick. We also have a potential bittersweet on our farm from a wildling but its growing under some other trees and we have to wait until we get it out in the sun to see if its real or only has tannins under such horrible stress. Our other problem is getting tannins quantified, I looked at purchasing all the reagents for the tannin assay and it would run about 300$ and the reagents dont have much of a shelf life. Some of the universities are publishing papers with tannin levels so somebody is doing it but we dont have an institute here so far that tests apples for tannins that I have found. The other thing for the commercial guys is that the names of the famous euro cider apples have been splashed all over every cider story over here so when people look for "real" cider they see these names and think that is the only key to finding good cider and are still influenced by grape wine in looking for a single variety cider, most people think blending as done in grape wines is done by using cheaper grapes for the bulk and adding a few good grapes to give it a flavor boost. 

Are any of the American cider varieties grown over there? LIke Stayman, Winesap or Goldrush? I know your markets are flooded with golden delicious, which actually when grown here is a nice dessert apple picked ripe from the tree, and a WV native also. 

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le dimanche 25 octobre 2015 05:25:17 UTC-4, Andrew Lea a écrit :

I have suggested before (and have been blown out of the water for it!)
that New World cider makers should start to select their own New World
cider varieties instead of slavishly following what we Europeans have
been doing for hundreds of years. I repeat my suggestion! Claude has
made a good start in this. He has selected a local seedling which he
calls Douce de Charlevoix, which crops well in his climate and seems to
have good cider making potential as a medium bittersweet. Many more
people should be doing this sort of thing.

Actually, there are quite a few others in the US that have now started to look at natural seedling trees for cider.
I have made a talk at CiderDays with John Bunker a few years ago on this topic and I think more and more people are starting to see the usefulness of evaluating natural seedlings.

Also, in the US, there are since a few years large plantings of Harrison and Virginia, 2 old american true cider apples. And to give you an idea, this last August, I sent out hundreds of buds of Douce de Charlevoix to nurserymen and cidermakers who wish to grow it in larger scale. So it is raising interest.

And the more it goes the more I like this Douce de Charlevoix. Very good and dependable cropper, no sensibilities to sickness, vigorous tree. And now that I have larger crops, I use it at about 30 to 40% in some blends, where it gives a very nice bitter touch, reminescent of the Breton ciders, and also very nice flavors, while bringning down the acidity from the rest of the blend.

As of Australia, I did notice a lot of roadside seedling trees. Most of them were in full bloom, so easy to spot! An interesting thing is that these trees seemed to thrive, and without irrigation, while all apple plantings I have seen in Australia need irrigation. Anyway, some people I talked to about this seemed interested and told me next time they would pass by a seedling, they'd try the fruit... The question of irrigation is an important factor in my mind. The way market apples are grown over there is probably much too costly for cider apples. If cider apples could be grown without irrigation, this would certainly be of a great value, even if the yield is lower per unit of area - there is a lot of land in Australia, but not so much water!

Claude

[greg l.]

Andrew and Claude,

It would be great if someone in Australia would do some cider apple breeding, but I don't think you appreciate how tiny the apple industry is here, not to mention the Nursery industry (except vine nurseries). There wouldn't be any financial incentive for breeding, it would have to be purely for love of good cider. I really don't see a great need for new cultivars, European cultivars grow quite well in the highland areas where most orchards are, Dabinett being an exception. I don't think the problem with Dabinett is lack of winter chill, my dam froze solid enough to walk on the ice this year but my dabinett is only just into budburst, weeks after the last of my other cultivars. It does have some flowers.

I have been raising seedlings myself but have never found anything deserving of wider release, there are just so many attributes to consider. There are lots of roadside trees but I'm not sure why they would be suitable for cider, they are just seedlings of dessert apples.

As for irrigation, it has long been usual practise in Australia for all intensive horticulture to be irrigated. I know in Orange all the apple orchards have irrigation, but I doubt most of them use it very much. I think it is just insurance to make sure the apples will get to the desired size for the market, most of the time they have good rain and deep basalt soil so they don't need much irrigation. I imagine Batlow is a bit the same. My orchard is on deep alluvial soil, it never gets watered and does just fine.

Greg

On Monday, 26 October 2015 03:36:47 UTC+11, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

Is anyone making Douce de Charlevoix available in the USA? How far south has this one grown well? WVMJ

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[Dick Dunn]

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 09:25:07AM +0000, Andrew Lea wrote:
...much snip...

> I have suggested before (and have been blown out of the water for it!)
> that New World cider makers should start to select their own New World
> cider varieties instead of slavishly following what we Europeans have

> been doing for hundreds of years...

Andrew, I've taken -some- of your advice to heart, and yes, moved away from
trying to create a West Country cider here! But it's not quite as simple
as this note of yours would make it seem.

First, one of the reasons New World cidermakers are trying to follow many
of the varieties you use over there is that you've selected for a number of
valuable characteristics of the apples themselves. If those varieties can
perform well here, then we're a long way down the road...we know that we
have a fair chance at getting the right sugar, acidity, tannin, aroma,
texture, and complexity. That's an enormous head start over picking a
promising (but otherwise random) seedling.

Second, "New World" is hopelessly simplistic. If you look at your West
Country and Three Counties plus Normandy and Brittany...in the larger
scheme of things, it's basically one climate zone. Let's you and I sit
down with Claude, Wes Cherry, Steve Wood, and Diane Flynt...and see what we
have in common for growing. Gosh, the sun is above and the soil is below,
but beyond that we start to diverge! Even just Colorado, that's about the
same size as the entire UK, and climatically far more diverse.

This is one of the reasons we out here started the Rocky Mountain Cider
Association, and we're trying to promote All Things Cider Apples here...
because it's a regional thing. We need our own varieties. They'll overlap
with what's used in other regions in North America, but we've got to work
to our specific concerns. So why would I NOT try Kingston Black, White
Jersey, Bulmer's Norman, Somerset Redstreak...along with Baldwin, Golden
Russet, Northern Spy, Cortland, Redfield, etc.? At this point I'm certainly
not "slavishly following" the European choices...yet that's certainly no
reason to -ignore- what has been successful over there!

>...I repeat my suggestion! Claude has

> made a good start in this. He has selected a local seedling which he
> calls Douce de Charlevoix, which crops well in his climate and seems to
> have good cider making potential as a medium bittersweet. Many more
> people should be doing this sort of thing.

I agree (and I've got his Douce de Charlevoix as well as Banane Amere,
although they're too young to crop yet).

> Sadly in my recent travels to cidermakers in North America and Australia
> I have met nobody who is following his example (if I have, and I've

> forgotten, then I apologise!)...

Well, Andrew, let's be blunt: Starting from promising seedlings is a long
path! Those of us who are "of a certain age" (usually said of women but it
applies equally here) must use some judgment to avoid attempting tasks we
cannot complete in our lifetimes (and might not be able to hand off). OK,
I'm younger than you, but only a tad. I'm interested in making cider from
my own apples within my own lifetime! So I can attempt seedling projects,
but not as the main path.

Particularly in challenging climates, and with realistic expectations,
you'd need to expect ten years to get from a seedling to a useful apple.
I've got a way to try some, soon, but again it can't be my main path.

>...But it seems to me that if the New World

> cider industry wants to be in it for the long term, they will have to
> start to select their own specific cider apples, not rely on cold stored
> dessert apples nor on the uncertain performance of European varieties in

> unsuitable climates...

They certainly need to get out of using leftover CA culls. But it's not
quite right to say that they would "rely" on those uncertain/unsuitable
European varieties. They can select from those varieties to see what
works...and a lot faster than gambling on random seedlings. The seedlings
have their place too, but not within a business plan of a cidery opening
now.

>...Of course it will take time, and if you're only in

> the cider business to make a quick buck while the trend lasts, then that
> sort of long-term thinking will have no role ;-)

Much as I'm a cynic, this is too cynical for me!:-) I don't see how a time
period under ten years is "quick buck" category.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Richard Anderson]

There are a number of breeding programs in the US and other countries like New Zealand which grow hundreds if not thousands of trial trees for the dessert industry. How to engage this research to look for promising cider fruit would possible direction to take. It would take money, likely grant money which seems to be available and direction from qualified source(s). Hey, US Cider association folks(regional and national) are you listening? I see a bit of grant money flowing locally and am not convinced it is being well spent.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 26 octobre 2015 13:14:12 UTC-4, Richard a écrit :

There are a number of breeding programs in the US and other countries like New Zealand which grow hundreds if not thousands of trial trees for the dessert industry. How to engage this research to look for promising cider fruit would possible direction to take.

You have an excellent point there Richard.

I am sure that among the thousands of discarded varieties from the breeding programs, some very valuable cider apples have been destroyed.

What I can say about natural seedlings, is that on my property (which is 2-1/2 ha) and within a 10 minute walk outside of it, there are hundreds of natural seedling trees. Some very small (that I often use as rootstocks), some juvenile, and some fruiting trees. Every year, I find new ones fruiting and I can test the fruits.

Now, as to of how valuable these can be... In average I find that about 4 out of 5 of these trees produce fruit that I will consider inappropriate for cider by taking just one bite in the apple. So there remains 1 out of 5 for which I will take a sample of fruit to make a juice test. Not all of them will turn out to be good however, maybe one out of 4, which leaves possibly 1 seedling tree out of 20 which gives fruit that I consider valuable for cider making. This might seem like a small percentage, but if you consider the number of natural seedling trees growing in a country like USA or Canada or Australia (we are probably talking about many hundreds of thousands of trees), one out of 20 makes a huge amount of potential cider apple varieties! And this is without counting the rejects from breeding programs... And if you look at the number of seedling trees just within 10 minutes of my property, maybe 200 trees, this means I could find 10 good cider varieties just by walking around.

So we are not talking about big and costly research and breeding programs here, but just about cider makers that go out in the wood or along the road looking for wild seedling trees, testing the fruit, and propagating the variety if found good for testing it some more. This costs nothing! And this is one of the ways we may with time build an original variety selection, local to a terroir or a region, that would produce a high quality cider typical of the region in question.

Another thing that I do - I mentioned above that I often use seedlings that I find as rootstocks. Yes I agree, this is not ideal for a production orchard, as all trees will have different vigor, but it is OK for a research orchard as mine. So one thing I like to do is to leave the first lower branch of the small wild tree and graft above it. Then when it starts fruiting, I have the chance to evaluate the fruit from the seedling tree, and I can cut the branch if I find no value in its fruit. This is easy to do, and again costs nothing...

Claude

[Andrew Lea]

On 26/10/2015 18:20, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

>
> So we are not talking about big and costly research and breeding
> programs here, but just about cider makers that go out in the wood or
> along the road looking for wild seedling trees, testing the fruit, and
> propagating the variety if found good for testing it some more.

And this is exactly how Dabinett and Yarlington Mill were 'discovered'
in the late 19th century. Both were wild seedlings that caught the
attention of local cider makers who recognised their potential and took
them for grafting. "The rest is history". That's proof that this
approach can work.

[Thomas Fehige]

My favourite (though slightly mad) pruning expert Helmut Palmer (1930--2004) suggests to sow a row of pomace every now and then, and see what happens. Wood from seedlings that survive and strive are grafted onto existing trees -- if you graft them so they grow horizontally, you'll have the first apples to test after not that many years. Iirc, he expected a rate of new promising varieties similar to Claude's estimate.

Palmer's point is that varieties promoted decades ago for being healthy, productive and high in sugar might in the course of their "lives" -- distributed and re-distributed all over the country by nurseries and private grafts -- have collected fungi and other diseases that lead to a decay in fruit quality, quantity and tree health in all the new trees of this variety. If he's right, there's not only a need to evaluate seedlings for geographical adaptation, but also for a continuous renewal in the home area. If we left this to the fruit industry, should we really think the resulting varieties would fulfill an ambitiuous craft cider-maker's hopes and expectations?

Cheers -- Thomas

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 26 octobre 2015 17:07:50 UTC-4, Thomas Fehige a écrit :

Palmer's point is that varieties promoted decades ago for being healthy, productive and high in sugar might in the course of their "lives" -- distributed and re-distributed all over the country by nurseries and private grafts -- have collected fungi and other diseases that lead to a decay in fruit quality, quantity and tree health in all the new trees of this variety.

This is something that was discussed a lot in the old days. In French, old books often mentioned the "dégénérescence" of the ancient varieties and the need to always discover new seedlings of great quality to renew the variety selection.
I think this is something that modern scientists have solved... it is now attributed to virus and other viroid organisms that may with time infect a variety and affect its qualities. There are now some treatments to get rid of virus, and good stock is nowadays certified virus free. So I don't think this is an issue anymore...
Claude

[greg l.]

Andrew, I think you are seeing things through the rosy lens of time here. Sure, Yarlington Mill and Dabinett are good cider apples but what about all the other cider cultivars that were named and distributed in England in the 19th century? Most of them have failed the test of time, having fallen into obscurity due to one problem or another. This age old system of naming cultivars willy nilly and letting time winnow out the  unsuitable seedlings is all very well in the long run, but leads to a lot of disappointment in the short term. I have often been disappointed when buying newly released plants only to find they fail due to some problem, it is a failing of the nursery industry generally due to the quest for novelty. I think it is better if the breeders take more time to assess plants properly to be sure their selection really is worthy of wider release, ie offers something that isn't available in existing cultivars and has a proven record of performance in many different situations.

Claude, Canada is obviously very different to Australia. Here those roadside trees that you see are the only wild apples growing in the countryside, they thrive due to the extra moisture from the road runoff. For me to collect fruit from 20 different seedlings would be a fairly arduous task, and in the end would probably not be worth the effort.

[Andrew Lea]

On 26/10/2015 21:58, greg l. wrote:
> Andrew, I think you are seeing things through the rosy lens of time
> here. Sure, Yarlington Mill and Dabinett are good cider apples but what
> about all the other cider cultivars that were named and distributed in
> England in the 19th century? Most of them have failed the test of time,
> having fallen into obscurity due to one problem or another.

So, just why does that matter? Two of the most well known have lasted
and proved their worth for over a century. And the original selections
were made with standard trees in mind. The fact that Dabinett and YM
also perform well on dwarfing rootstocks is what has kept them
in the forefront of utility. They were doubly blessed!

[greg l.]

Andrew, you said " That's proof that this approach can work. "  I don't think it proves any such thing, though it depends what you mean by working. It may work for people a long time in the future but for people in the here and now it is more likely to lead to disappointment.

Greg

[Andrew Lea]

On 26/10/2015 22:48, greg l. wrote:
> Andrew, you said " That's proof that this approach can work. " I don't
> think it proves any such thing, though it depends what you mean by
> working. It may work for people a long time in the future but for people
> in the here and now it is more likely to lead to disappointment.

I just don't get all this negativity. First of all you complained that
UK vintage quality cider apples didn't work worldwide. Fair point, and
so I suggested that people in the "New World" need to find their own
selections / seedlings that work for them in their own climatic
conditions. Assessing and selecting wildings is one such approach, as
Claude has demonstrated. Now you are complaining again that it won't be
successful. Just exactly what do you want us Europeans to do for you?
And why can't you do it for yourselves?

I thought you guys in the New World prided yourselves on being the
Go-getters and Innovators? Sure doesn't look like it from here ;-)

Andrwe

[jez.howat]

Personally,

I love the idea that a group of people are going around trying to find the best cider varieties in ehatever country. 

Growers have tried for ages to replicate West Country cider varieties and in that time a good, quality practice of producing cider in what I would call the 'Eastern' style (for the UK). Hell, in the UK the eastern stylenis definately the weakest - with many commercial producers just chucking in whatever and calling it eastern style works... it doesnt. Quality fruit (varieties) is everything when all you have to work with is fruit! 

So the search for good fruit is always to be applauded. And success is always preceded by many failures. 

I am with Andrew on this!!

Jez

Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2

[greg l.]

Perhaps I am being a bit negative. I guess in this modern world of self esteem and everyone gets a prize, caution and negativity aren't valued much anymore. I remain resolutely negative and discouraging where new plant introductions are concerned.

Greg

On Tuesday, 27 October 2015 10:00:11 UTC+11, Andrew Lea wrote:

[Dick Dunn]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:13:47AM -0700, Richard Anderson wrote:
> There are a number of breeding programs in the US and other countries like New Zealand which grow hundreds if not thousands of trial trees for the dessert industry...

Yes, but at least in the US it appears that these breeding programs are
looking for "novelty" (since there are already many hundreds of wonderful
dessert varieties with wood quite available) and, pardon my cynicism if you
will, "patentability": Develop a new variety that's no better than so many
existing varieties, patent it, get some slick marketing, and buy a wheel-
barrow for taking money to the bank.

>...How to engage this research to look for promising cider fruit would possible direction to take. It would take money, likely grant money which seems to be available and direction from qualified source(s)..

Well, there's some promise in that. Moreover, the leverage is very good,
if we could somehow piggyback on work that's already being done. Just say,
"Hey, guys, if you end up with healthy trees but the fruit is tannic and
kinda pithy, let us have a go with them."

>...Hey, US Cider association folks(regional and national) are you listening? I see a bit of grant money flowing locally and am not convinced it is being well spent.

I'll speak just for the moment for interests of one regional--some Rocky
Mountain Cider Association folks are trying to gather information on how
known/established cider varieties (Old AND New World, thank you:-) perform
in our region. There are enough of those varieties which need to be
evaluated regionally, and that's work which already-overloaded cidermakers
can handle in their orchard work, as opposed to trial seedling plantings.

I'd be wary of projects which look more like "university research" and
don't involve experienced cidermakers right from the start. I saw the
results of one such a while back, and it definitely fit Rich's thought
of grant money not well spent.

[David Pickering]

It’s good to have a an outsider run their eye over what is familiar territory to locals!

In regard to Claude’s comments from the 25th

As of Australia, I did notice a lot of roadside seedling trees. Most of 
them were in full bloom, so easy to spot! An interesting thing is that 
these trees seemed to thrive, and without irrigation, while all apple 
plantings I have seen in Australia need irrigation. Anyway, some people I 
talked to about this seemed interested and told me next time they would 
pass by a seedling, they'd try the fruit... The question of irrigation is 
an important factor in my mind. The way market apples are grown over there 
is probably much too costly for cider apples. If cider apples could be 
grown without irrigation, this would certainly be of a great value, even if 
the yield is lower per unit of area - there is a lot of land in Australia, 
but not so much water!

The survivability of roadside apple trees in Australia is certainly water related. Greg makes the valid point of run-off from the road and I would say that Claude has perhaps inadvertently nailed the primary reason - they are seedlings, with all the root structure, depth and spread that goes with a seedling. In a non-irrigated (or irrigated) orchard situation it is feasible to have seedling rootstocks but the production system must be able to cope with the tree size that results from seedling rootstocks. Seedlings also commonly have other rootstock related insect problems. That said, it’s food for thought in a minimal input system.

Cheers - David

David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800

http://www.cideroz.com/

http://www.cideraustralia.org.au/

[David Pickering]

I hope I don’t appear to be picking on you Claude!

This is something that was discussed a lot in the old days. In French, old books often mentioned the "dégénérescence" of the ancient varieties and the need to always discover new seedlings of great quality to renew the variety selection.
I think this is something that modern scientists have solved... it is now attributed to virus and other viroid organisms that may with time infect a variety and affect its qualities. There are now some treatments to get rid of virus, and good stock is nowadays certified virus free. So I don't think this is an issue anymore...

This is not a panacea. Cleaning up cultivars can be a two-edged sword. Here in Australia, some time back admittedly, certain Red Delicious cultivars were virus cleaned. And the clean material produced vigorous trees with lesser yields of fruit and lesser precocity - which presumably was vigour related. Maybe they would have benefited from grafting unto rootstocks of one or two steps of less vigour but whether this would have solved the yield issue is another matter.

Cheers - David

David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800

http://www.cideroz.com/

http://www.cideraustralia.org.au/

[Ian Shields]

Slightly more here and now but on this same theme of classification.

I have a Yarlington Mill, at least that's what I bought it as from a local nursery though I bought 2 plants and the other one certainly is not a YM. The tree I have certainly looks like YM when referring to Liz Copas' book. My query is how much tannin I should be experiencing, comparing to a Dabinet it is very mild much more like a Golden Bittersweet or even a Tale sweet which I also grow and whose tannin content is said to be much lower, are my taste buds hopeless or is YM indeed very mild compared to a Dab, or might this tree, despite its appearance not be a YM? Or is the taste perception complicated by different forms of tannin? Liz Copas describes YM as having 'some astringency' which does imply a certain mildness.

I am in S Devon. 

 Also as an aside does anyone have anything to say about Golden Bittersweets and Tale sweets in cider blends as I have lots of both this year?

Ian

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[Andrew Lea]

On 27/10/2015 11:11, Ian Shields wrote:
>
> The tree I have certainly looks like YM when referring to Liz
> Copas' book. My query is how much tannin I should be experiencing,

> comparing to a Dabinet ..... or is YM

> indeed very mild compared to a Dab

Yes YM is something of an anomaly and is very mild in taste compared to
Dab at the same numerical total tannin level. This was well known to
those of us working in cider phenolics research in the 1970's (how sad
can you get?) but is maybe not so widely known elsewhere. (I think it
was mentioned in a 1970's Long Ashton report and also in this book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cider-Juice-Apples-Growing-Processing/dp/B002U60D86
but those are not easily accessible, and anyway not online).

> Or is the taste perception complicated by different forms of tannin?

Yes it is indeed. The issue arises because when you estimate "total
tannin" by the Folin or Loewenthal methods you are actually measuring
"total phenolics", and typically only half them are true tannin in the
sense of conferring bitterness / astringency. That applies to most cider
apples, so for the most part the discrepancy is irrelevant because it's
an 'across the board' offset.

However, YM is an anomaly because it contains much higher levels of
phenolic acids and lower levels of procyanidins than the usual 50/50
split. The phenolic acids have no bitterness / astringency while the
procyanidins do. Hence YM seems much less tannic to the taste than its
analytical figures would suggest.

(The high level and unusual type of phenolic acids may also be why YM
seems anecdotally more prone to generating 'old horse' character in
finished cider than other bittersweets. Although I've seen no definitive
evidence for this, it has a certain biochemical logic and I wouldn't be
surprised to find the two are connected.)

I hope this explains what you have observed.

Andrew

[Nathan Shackelford]

I have suggested before (and have been blown out of the water for it!)
that New World cider makers should start to select their own New World
cider varieties instead of slavishly following what we Europeans have
been doing for hundreds of years. I repeat my suggestion! Claude has
made a good start in this. He has selected a local seedling which he
calls Douce de Charlevoix, which crops well in his climate and seems to
have good cider making potential as a medium bittersweet. Many more
people should be doing this sort of thing.

Sadly in my recent travels to cidermakers in North America and Australia
I have met nobody who is following his example (if I have, and I've
forgotten, then I apologise!). But it seems to me that if the New World
cider industry wants to be in it for the long term, they will have to
start to select their own specific cider apples, not rely on cold stored
dessert apples nor on the uncertain performance of European varieties in
unsuitable climates. Of course it will take time, and if you're only in
the cider business to make a quick buck while the trend lasts, then that
sort of long-term thinking will have no role ;-)

 
  Andy Brennan (who also has posted here) is doing some interesting fruit exploring and making cider for commercial sale from seedlings and old apples in his area. Shacksbury in VT, and Eve's Cidery in NY are also searching for wildings, or seedlings that might give new promise to regional ciders. One of the ideas that has resonated with me is that Andy Brennan is looking for trees that already grow well with no intervention, and make interesting ciders. I think this is an answer to the issues we've been discussing. He has found a tree he named Old Pierre and it is being sold by Fedco, so other cidermakers in a similar climate can try it out. 

In my suburban neighborhood I've noticed a few parkway trees that were supposed to be ornamental crabs, but the rootstock has overtaken the tree and produced a plethora of small sweet, tart, nutty, aromatic, yellow apples that seem to have some interesting characteristics in a blend. I'm looking for more like this in my area, and I think it's the most interesting thing about developing your own cider blend with what you have in your area.

[iancshields]

Thank you Andrew that really does seem to explain my observations.
Given what you say what contribution does YM bring to a blend? I have only used them as part of a fairly broad mixture of other varieties so couldn't say anything about its contribution myself.
Again thanks very much for the explanation.
Ian



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk>
Date:10/27/2015 13:51 (GMT+00:00)
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Cc:
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Yarlington Mill [was Mild bittersharp etc]