Buying cider apple trees

[tobybowes]

Hello, just looking for a little advice on buying a small amount of trees, were looking to buy 25-50 trees with a possibility of expanding to more in the future. We're also considering the same amount of perry pears.

The question is out of the many varieties how would people recommend we choose.

Firstly we're up north in East Yorkshire (uk) so we don't get the same amount of sun as down south and I know the soil is different, we already have 200 mixed eating and cooking apple trees which we've had success making cider with but the trees are diseased so were starting a fresh orchard.

Should we do any testing of the soil in out selection?

When is the best time to plant them?

Would it be advised to plant a mix 5/10 of each variety?

Any recommended sources for buying the trees from?

Other details we are researching are optimum distance between trees (currently our other orchard has trees 9ft apart but the trees do over hang each other in parts. And would it be good to install so kind of watering for the first few seasons or are new trees quite hardy? How long would it take from planting to producing a decent crop (I understand it gets better with age but looking for a starting point really).

Thanks in advance.
James

[Rupert Best]

For tree suppliers, suggest you try John Worle or Nick Dunn (of FP
Matthews).

Both included as copy addressees on this message.

Rupert Best

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[Ian Mayer]

Hi James,

'Growing Cider Apples - a guide to good orchard practice by Roger Umpelby and Loz Copas could be a good start for you. Plus a few good contacts may emerge from getting in touch with the Northern Fruit Group - some of whose members are also active in the SLOG (south lakes orchard group) who will probably have good tips and contacts for the north.

You say that you are replacing a diseased orchard. I think that would be the most telling bit for me - finding out what diseases and conditions brought about the disease will help you avoid replicating the problem in the future. Clearly you also want to avoid apple replant disease if you're using the same site for the new orchard.

Good luck - hope all goes well and do let me know how you get on - there's a chance I may be emigrating across the Pennines and heading Yorkshire-wards to live in the next 12 months so would be keen to learn what works for you and what doesn't!

Ian

Sent from my iPhone

On 28 Sep 2012, at 23:41, "Dougal" <baile...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

Dear James

Lots of questions.  Let's see if I can answer a few.

First, number.  If you plant 48, you could do eight trees each of six cultivars.  Then you can judge how they do in your climate / soils and add more of the successful varieties.  Further, six trees means you can take a good lot of scions of the better trees and graft to increase the number.  I'm outside the UK but I would say that if a new tree costs 25 units, your rootstock can be sourced for about 3 units.  That's a big saving if you wish to later expand.  Your eight trees will give you about 50L in the early years, increasing to about 150L.

Next, you need to determine how big you want your trees to get, from bush (6') to standard (25' !).  Height is determined by the rootstock, as is spacing.  The rootstock may also perform better in different soil types and may provides resistance to certain pests and diseases.  Production depends on the rootstock, too, with dwarf and semi-dwarf varieties fruiting in about three years and standards in about 5-7.

That takes us to the next point.  A soil test will give you an idea of the 'fuel' your trees will have available to them.  Good cider is made from trees low in nitrogen, but then new trees need nitrogen to grow.  Lower water volumes in old trees gives smaller, more intensely flavoured apples, but new trees need water to grow, too.  As I was once told, "you can choose to water your trees or not ... but only if you have irrigation in".  While it's tempting to get apples off your trees as soon as possible, growing fruit means the tree is putting less energy into growing itself.  Don't be in a hurry to get your fruit; let the tree become well established first.  Carefully managed crops in the early years may also avoid your trees going biennial.  Dig a good hole to see what's going on under the surface.  If you have deep loam then look to get trees with high graft points so you can plant them deeper.  This will give you stable trees and may mean you do not have to stake or wire M26 rootstocks and the like.

Buy maidens / whips (one year olds) because this gives you the best management of your trees.  They will grow good roots for their height, and you can plan out exacty the scaffolds that you want.  It is important to produce trees with strong crotches that will take good crops in future years, while also allowing light and air into your trees.  Plant in late winter (I say this, rather than giving a month, as seasons in your area will be different to other regions) and add tree guards.  Rabbits are inquisitive little beasts and like to 'test' anything new in their environment.  They love to nibble the bark and eat the buds on new trees!  If you have windy days check the guards are in place at the end of the day.  I say this from experience; rabbits are much harder pruners than I am!

Finally, do lots of research: reading, and talking to orchardists, nurserymen and horticultural suppliers.

All the best

Doug

--

[Andrew Lea]

On 28/09/2012 23:28, Dougal wrote:

>
> Lots of questions. Let's see if I can answer a few.

All very wise and sensible stuff. To which I would just like to add that
"trees grow". Unless you have a lot of land, you may not want to plant
at final spacing distance when it will take 10+ years for the canopy to
fill out. Think of planting more closely and being prepared to thin out
once or even twice. The best way to do that is to plant on a 'quincunx'
pattern, i.e. in staggered rows so that each tree appears to be at the
centre of a group of five. That way you can thin on the diagonal.

Also from the beginning you need to be thinking about pruning and
ultimate canopy management, which begins in the first year. Most cider
orchards in the UK are grown not as 'bush' trees but on centre-leader
systems since the fruit is harvested from the ground not picked off the
tree. Of course you may want to grow them as standard trees on M25 for
landscaping reasons if you want your orchard to look 'traditional'. Try
to get yourself a copy of Liz Copas's 'Cider Apple Growers Guide'
(2011). If you deal with John Worle or Frank Mathews as Rupert suggested
they should be able to get you a copy.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[tobybowes]

Thanks for the replies guys, its certainly given me starting point and directing for my research! I'll be back to let you know how things progress!

[Mark Evens]

Also you can try RV Roger's nursery in Pickering, who have a good
range of trees including cider apples and who have a knowledge of the
local conditions. Over here in Cumbria we are even cooler and much
wetter than you. The question as to why the existing trees are
diseased is highly relevant. If it is canker, is it because the ground
is too wet? If so, is the new site well drained? I strongly suggest
that you carry out a percolation test and also get the soil tested by
the RHS. I am assuming that it will be a new site, to avoid apple
replant disease. I bought most of my trees from Rogers and planted
them in the winter of 2007/8. They are now starting to crop reasonably
well (or at least some varieties are) despite the poor season. These
are on MM106. The early apples crop better than the late ones, owing
to the short growing season, so if I was doing it again I would plant
more earlies. A few comments on how different varieties have fared
here:
Discovery: Good early eater, but the wasps and slugs love'em too
Katy: Excellent early eater, also good in cider (some even do an SV of
it)
Golden Spire (AKA Tom Matthews cider apple): good sharp and cooker,
not very vigorous, but good cropper. If I was doing it again I might
use MM111 not MM106.
Keswick Codlin: Excellent in cooking and juice, good sharp for cider
too. Prolific cropper and strong tree.
Tom Putt: Good sharp for juice, cider and general purpose. Bug tree,
good cropper. Beware canker if bark gets damaged when young (which it
does easily because of fast soft growth), but it responds well to
treatment.
Major: Slow to come into crop.
Sunset & Fiesta: Cox-alikes which the nurseries like to sell. Nice
tasting apples but can be very scabby in our wet conditions.
Duke of Devonshire: Another Cumbrian apple. Excellent flavour, but
needs maturing.
Belle de Boskoop: Done very poorly here - slow to crop and scabby.
Tremletts Bitter: Star performing cider apple tree so far - strong
grower and now cropping.
Scotch Bridget: Dual purpose apple - excellent juice.
Ashmeads Kernel: Probably one of the better late desserts for the
North, good as dessert or cider, but a bit shy to crop.
Dabinett: Late cider apple - had been doing very well until this year,
when it really didn't like the late spring/early "summer" weather.

I would plant a mix to hedge your bets and allow you to get the best
blend for your cider.
Plant over the winter - the nurseries will be taking orders now for
bare-rooted stock. But do the soil analysis first and if needs drastic
action, do that this year and hold off planting until next year.

On planting distance I would go for 14ft for MM106, but note that
variety affects size as much as rootstock (e.g. Golden Spire is half
the size of Tom Putt). The Orangepippin website has a good guide to
ultimate size depending on variety and rootstock.

Last, but not least, put in a stake that is far too big (i.e. thick)
for the tiny tree. Farm fence posts are better and cheaper than weedy
garden centre stakes.
Happy planting
Mark

[tobybowes]

Thanks for your response, exactly what I was looking for a break down of different varieties! I'll also add RV Roger's onto the list of suppliers to contact when I finally get time to concentrate on this!