Too late for scion wood?

[Handmade Cider]

Hello all,

I have just been told that a local orchard holder is prepared to convert a substantial quantity of his 15 yr old half standard orchard to varieties that I want in my cider. I have all the varieties in the orchards I pick in Somerset and could go down there tomorrow to colllect some scion wood. I am aware that the top working would be timely if carried out soon, but is it too late to gather the scion wood? I was wondering about putting it in the freezer for a few days to simulate the winter we have not had...

Denis

--
Denis France
www.handmadecider.co.uk
07590 264 804

Company. No. 07241330

[Andrew Lea]

On 23/03/2014 09:50, Handmade Cider wrote:

> some scion wood. I am aware that the top working would be timely if
> carried out soon, but is it too late to gather the scion wood? I was
> wondering about putting it in the freezer for a few days to simulate the
> winter we have not had...

I don't think scion wood has a requirement for chilling per se does it?
We keep it cool and slightly damp just to extend its shelf life.

The freezer would NOT be a good idea - ice crystals will kill the cells!
Just in poly bags in the bottom of the fridge should be fine. Maybe each
bundle wrapped in dampened paper tissue to stop them drying out. But
don't let them swim ;-)

Andrew


--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Handmade Cider]

Thanks for the quick reply Andrew, I was assuming it would be ok right up until the sap rises.

Denis

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[MikeB...@aol.com]

I've just done some late grafting, but I'm doubtful some will work.  As I understand it its the condition of the buds that matters.  If they're too far advanced they'll burst before the graft can supply sap, and that will be that.

 

Whether a spell in the fridge will send them back into deeper dormancy I don't know.  Fruit growers round here generally seem keen on cold snaps in the spring to hold the blossom back, so maybe that'll work.  I think its air frost after blossom has burst that they don't like.

 

 

Mike

 

...some scion wood. I am aware that the top working would be timely if

[Early Red]

.  If they're too far advanced they'll burst before the graft can supply sap, and that will be that.

 

Mike are you grafting dessert varieties or cider? Lets not forget that alot of the cider varieties are alot later than the dessert ones...

Denis

[MikeB...@aol.com]

Both in the past; this year just one cider variety and one pollinator.  I took the cider variety (thought to be Sweet Alford) about 5 weeks ago, and already the higher buds were advancing.  Its been in the fridge since then.  I moved the rootstocks away from dormancy (put them in a warm place) for a couple of weeks prior to grafting, hoping that would help.

 

Mike

 

 

.  If they're too far advanced they'll burst before the graft can supply sap, and that will be that.

 

Mike are you grafting dessert varieties or cider? Lets not forget that alot of the cider varieties are alot later than the dessert ones...

Denis

--

[Early Red]

Logic says the fridge thing should help. and putting the cider varieties, as in my case onto dessert fruit stems.

I also have 3 varieties of wild crab scions in the fridge that I am hoping to make work.

My plan is to leave some stems uncut/grafted to allow photo synthesis to continue, so if it all fails I can try again next year.

Last year I did one experimental variety change by chopping a tree off at 1ft and put Early Red Jersey onto it which had been fridged. By the time I got round to the graft I thought it was too late and I thought it had failed as on June the 10th it had showed no signs of life. I was then away till July 4th, my birthday and came back to the orchard to a wonderful present!

Denis

[Dick Dunn]

puzzling a bit...

On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 09:58:00AM +0000, Andrew Lea wrote:
...
> I don't think scion wood has a requirement for chilling per se does it?
> We keep it cool and slightly damp just to extend its shelf life.

"Conventional wisdom" has it that it should be kept dark, and as cool as
possible without freezing. The concern, as has (sorta) been mentioned, is
that you don't want the scion to break dormancy before it's grafted, so
that it doesn't put much demand on the roots through the (newly formed)
graft union.

It is true that the scion has enough nutrition within itself to carry on
for a bit on its own. You'll see this if you have a good, healthy scion
but make a poor graft which doesn't take: The scion will sprout as if the
graft were good, and leaf out for a week or two; then the leaves will
wither as the scion runs out of food and (mainly) water.

> The freezer would NOT be a good idea - ice crystals will kill the cells!

That is "conventional wisdom" which I don't understand. Granted, I've
never actually -tried- putting scionwood in the freezer, but only because
I've been told not to and I don't want to do anything deliberate which
would cause a graft to fail.

BUT...If you've just taken a cutting from a tree which has been getting
frozen every night for months, and possibly has gone a week or more at a
time without the temperature coming above freezing...what's the difference
in putting it in a freezer?
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[David Llewellyn]

Dick wrote: "BUT...If you've just taken a cutting from a tree which has been

getting
frozen every night for months, and possibly has gone a week or more at a
time without the temperature coming above freezing...what's the difference
in putting it in a freezer?"

I suspect that the degree of freezing would make a huge difference. A few
degrees below zero Celcius might be fine, as one could get in normal winter
weather, but minus 20 C in a deep-freeze is a very different scenario. For
example, I use frozen strawberry plants stored at around minus 2 or 3 C, and
they store for months until needed for planting. Minus 20 C would just kill
them outright.

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

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[Steve G]

" A few degrees below zero Celcius might be fine, as one could get in normal winter 

weather, but minus 20 C in a deep freeze...."

Minus 25 C was routine here this year with no seemingly ill effect on the trees, but that is going to be all variety dependent.  Dick's "conventional wisdom" is also what I generally follow, full dormant cuttings put into doubled, sealed plastic bags. I will sometimes add some damp (not wet!) sawdust or newspaper so to keep it from desiccating. Then its put in the bottom the refrigerator. I've never had bad results in years of doing this.

Steve

Bear Swamp Orchard and Cidery

Ashfield, Massachusetts

[Handmade Cider]

Dick wrote: "BUT...If you've just taken a cutting from a tree which has been
getting
frozen every night for months, and possibly has gone a week or more at a
time without the temperature coming above freezing...what's the difference
in putting it in a freezer?"

Maybe it is the speed of the freeze that counts? I remember someone in some book advocating freezing fruit before pulping to either ferment or juice extract in order to break down the cell structure. Apparently fast freezing produces larger crystals which destroys structure more, therefore maybe a slow freeze may be ok?

Difficult to do as most home freezers are fairly full and scion wood small, therefore with the mass of frozen stuff in there the scion's would freeze fast. One would need a separate freezer which could be loaded with some bottles of water and the scion,s and then turned on. The bottles of water would slow down the temperature drop.

So another question: Has any one had scion's breaking dormancy in the fridge? I am wondering if temperature is the only factor in this.

[Handmade Cider]

And another question: I am picking up from above that size of scion is important for the amount of nutrients and sugars the scion would have in reserve to use till sap comes up.

All the scions I collected from wild crabs earlier this year are only 3 to 4 mm across. All the donor trees are old, one in particular which produces a fine crop year in year out looks to be 100 plus years old and it was hard enough finding fresh growth in it's canopy, let alone pencil thickness!

I am thinking to leave these in the fridge as long as possible, till the sap starts rising, so that fresh nutrients and sugars are available to it from the word go.

Denis

[David Llewellyn]

Remember you don’t HAVE to use 1-year old wood for grafting. Sometimes in an old tree it can be hard to come by one-year twigs that are either long enough or fat enough to graft, but you might find 2 or 3 year old wood which is straight and of the right thickness – this is perfectly ok to use as scions, and there should be plenty of dormant buds ready to burst when the union completes. In fact, it can be a good idea to use this kind of wood INSTEAD of 1-year wood when taking scions late in the spring when the tree has started breaking bud, because the latent buds on the 2 and 3 year old shoots will be slow to burst, and won’t do so until the union has completed!

 

David Llewellyn

Tel: + 353 87 2843879

www.llewellynsorchard.ie

(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Handmade Cider
Sent: 25 March 2014 09:39
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Too late for scion wood?

 

And another question: I am picking up from above that size of scion is important for the amount of nutrients and sugars the scion would have in reserve to use till sap comes up.

Denis

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[Andrew Lea]

On 25/03/2014 09:24, Handmade Cider wrote:

> Apparently fast
> freezing produces larger crystals which destroys structure more,
> therefore maybe a slow freeze may be ok?

No, that's the wrong way round. It's slow freezing which produces large
crystals and fast freezing that produces small ones. As Clarence
Birdseye discovered ;-)

If you dig into the literature a little, you find that this whole
freezing damage thing in apple wood is enormously complicated. As
somebody already said, it's in part varietally dependent. Plant cells
contain natural 'antifreezes' the levels of which are under genetic
control. Moreover they are 'inducible' which means that they are
increased in response to environmental factors. As winter sets in, the
tree prepares for the possibility of freezing conditions. As far as I
can read, some apple scions can survive deep freezing but it depends on
their previous history. Scions cut in autumn or mid winter survive deep
freezing better than those taken in late winter; plus the varietal
overlay. But if scions taken in early spring at 5C are suddenly deep
frozen to -20C, I don't think the survival rate will be very high.

Frankly, given all the unknowns, isn't it just easier to use the fridge
which we know works and is safe?

[Handmade Cider]

Remember you don’t HAVE to use 1-year old wood for grafting.

David, how I can I remember something I have not learned yet! I did wonder about older wood when looking at the crabs but thought one had to use fresh. Interesting points, thanks.

 No, that's the wrong way round. It's slow freezing which produces large crystals and fast freezing that produces small ones. As Clarence Birdseye discovered ;-)

Thanks for the correction Andrew.

Frankly, given all the unknowns, isn't it just easier to use the fridge which we know works and is safe?

Maybe I was exploring the point for pedants sake! And exploring it has brought up interesting info on tree life cycles.

All this grafting has come at a timely point as I have just spoken to one of the orchard holders and as suspected, his son is now wanting the fruit from the orchards. It will be good to the various Jerseys and bittersweets onto rootstock closer to home. When I spoke to the orchard holder he swore blind he had no Kingston Black or Red Jersey in the orchard but I have learned better. ;-) So a fair exchange, my knowledge of his fruit for scion wood.

Denis

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 25 mars 2014 06:48:59 UTC-4, Andrew Lea a écrit :

Frankly, given all the unknowns, isn't it just easier to use the fridge
which we know works and is safe?

I may add to this discussion that in my early days of grafting, I did put my scion wood in the freezer and also did lose some scions that had become all brown when taken out.
As far as I remember, this happened to scion wood I had received in the mail, hence could have started to grow. Wood that I cut during sub-zero temperature and put direct to the freezer didn't suffer.
Anyway, I haven't put my wood in the freezer since and never had such losses either.
Hence, as Andrew says, the fridge works well for the purpose, so might as well use it.
Claude