Adjusting Priming Sugar Based on Temp

[Chris Hoerichs]

Using the spreadsheet from The New Cider Maker's Handbook by Claude Jolicoeur I was entering the priming sugar and I noticed I could not find a location to enter the temperature. I have used a priming sugar calculator in the past that includes temperature to adjust the priming sugar.

The online calculator indicates that I will have 4 volumes of CO2 if it remains at its current temp, but Claude’s spreadsheet says that the cider will be “Petillant.”

Should the dextrose be adjusted for temp for bottle conditioning?


Thanks
Chris

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Not sure I understand this temperature thing.

Do you mean the temperature of the sugar, or the temperature at which you will keep the cider while the prise de mousse will be going on?

Temperature of the sugar makes no real sense because you should dose it by weight and this is not temperature dependant.

Temperature at which you keep the cider - yes if you keep it warmer, things should go faster. But this should not change the end point.

[Chris Hoerichs]

Yes, the temp that the cider is kept.  Here is the formula that is used Brew By The Numbers, Michael L. Hall, Ph.D.1995    As you can see temperature of cider is used.  

• PS= Dextrose required in grams
• VC= Volume of cider
• CD= Colume of carbon dioxide
• T= Cider temperture before bottling

PS = 15.195 * VC (CD – 3.0378) + ((5.0062*10^-2) * T) – (2.6555 x 10^-4 * (T^2))

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/c96dce62-b83a-4626-9e65-ce49fdac2843n%40googlegroups.com.

[tom.t...@gmail.com]

I haven't read "Brew by the numbers" but my first inkling is that the quadratic T dependency you cite deals with the changing solubility of CO2 in the cider/brew with temperature.

However, I ran the numbers through a spreadsheet and I get negative addiitions of sugar for the following:

VC = 1 (1 volume of cider - not sure what the units are here)

CD = 2.5 volumes of CO2 vs the 1 vol cider

assuming both sensible values for Temperature in Celcius and Fahrenheit I get negative additions in both cases so I imagine the transcription of the formula has gone awry or I'm missing the correct units for the coefficients used in this equation.

The maths you quote seems to imply that volumes of carbon dioxide under 3.03 will tip the first term in the equation quite strongly negative, unless T is correspondingly very high. I paste graph below. So you need to want at least 3.03 volumes CO2 before you start getting numbers that make sense in the real world...  I think the book's context will be useful.

picture attached.

have fun

TOm

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 25 janvier 2021 à 08:45:02 UTC-5, cghoe...@gmail.com a écrit :

Yes, the temp that the cider is kept.  Here is the formula that is used Brew By The Numbers, Michael L. Hall, Ph.D.1995    As you can see temperature of cider is used.  

• PS= Dextrose required in grams
• VC= Volume of cider
• CD= Colume of carbon dioxide
• T= Cider temperture before bottling

PS = 15.195 * VC (CD – 3.0378) + ((5.0062*10^-2) * T) – (2.6555 x 10^-4 * (T^2))

Sorry, but this formula makes no sense. For example, if you want 3 volumes of CO2 or less, it will give you a negative amount of sugar to add...

Just saw Tom's msg who says the same thing, except he does it with a nice graph!

[Chris Hoerichs]

The interesting thing is that all beer carb calculators include temp.  Similarly any online calculator for cider (which appear to use the same formula) uses temp.  I’m still looking but I haven’t found one yet that doesn’t include temp.  Here is the only detailed explanation I’ve found.  Assume everyone else is just using the same equation.

 Gas Problems - http://brainlubeonline.com/GasLawsBeer.html

This means if CO2 is 44 grams per mole and we want to know how much 1 liter of CO2 weights at STP we can do this: 1mol CO2 at STP = 22.4 Liters as it is for all gases, and we know that CO2 = 44Grams/mol (weight) so 44 / 22.4 = 1.964 grams per liter. Therefore the density of CO2 at Standard Pressure and Temperature is 1.964g/l.

Just a few more to make sure you have it: Methane has a molecular weight of 16 (grams per mole). Calculate the volume occupied by 3.6 grams of Methane at STP. This means that 3.6 grams / (divided by) 16 grams per mole means that we're working with .225 mols of gas. Then we know that at STP the volume occupied by one mole is 22.4 liters so 22.4 * .225 = 5.04 liters.

Now that we have some what of a grasp of the relationships that gases posses, the formula that gives us the amount of pressure needed to get the volumes of CO2 required is slightly more complicated because of all the constants required, but the most popular short cut formula is as follows.

Pressure = F(Temperature, Volume) Temperature is is Fahrenheit, Volumes is in Volumes of CO2 required. Please remember your order of operations! And to convert Celsius to Fahrenheit the formula is CĄ = (FĄ - 32) x (5 / 9) . The way to do it in your head is: Centigrade to Fahrenheit double the number, subtract 10%, then add 32.

P = -16.6999 - 0.0101059 T + 0.00116512 T^2 + 0.173354 T V + 4.24267 V - 0.0684226 V^2

     

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/233e79d2-f507-46c9-998c-116edc14270fn%40googlegroups.com.

[AW]

The temperature term is meant to account for residual CO2 left over from primary fermentation.  

It is the highest temp "experienced" by the brew or wine between cessation of primary and bottling.  

When making cider, I assume the residual CO2 is fairly low (I rack and age for a while), so if I ever use these calculators I set the temp to like 100.    

[AW]

I think the equation provided above is incorrect and the real equation can be found here. 

PS = 15.195 VB (CD – 3.0378 + 5.0062 x 10-2 T – 2.6555 x 10-4 T2)

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/2497/Math_in_Mash_SummerZym95.pdf

[cghoe...@gmail.com]

My cider is fermented, racked, bottled and stored at around 52 - 56F plus at least until late spring.  Using the spreadsheet for sparkling and plugging the g/L of dextrose into any of the calculators at my temp says it can put me over 6 volumes C02.  On a positive note I know I won't have too much CO2 with the last 15gal bottled.  

[cghoe...@gmail.com]

Should have said 52 - 56F plus or minus a couple of degrees.

[AW]

VB is in gallons

CD is in volumes

PS is (inexplicably) in grams

T is in Fahrenheit

[tom.t...@gmail.com]

To finish off this discussion and to leave a handy picture or two in the archives for future queries, I have now plotted the empirical relationship from the equation given for the US audience in grams(sorry!) per US gallons and Fahrenheit, and for the more European minded the same data in grams per litre (in Celsius).

Enjoy!

Tom

[AW]

This looks quite a bit more realistic and useful.  Thanks!