Some cider questions re slow starting fermentations and measuring tannins

[Oliver Kierse]

 

Hi all,

 

I’ve a few questions which I’d appreciate any advice on.

 

1. I recall reading a French study into the effect of leaving the pulped apples ‘sit’ for 24 hours or so before pressing. Blind taste tests showed better flavours in the batches that were pressed immediately and not allowed to ‘sit’. I think it was linked to the loss of polyphenols with time. So, if I have a slow starting fermentation (typically my partially-sulphated ferments take 3 weeks + to kick off) is this analogous to allowing the pulped apples to sit before pressing and will the final cider flavour suffer as a result (when compared with a ferment that starts immediately)?

 

2. I typically ferment to dryness and then carry out a secondary fermentation in the bottle for CO2. If these bottles are then in long term storage, can a further (MLF) fermentation happen?

 

3. I’m going through an old (140 years) cider orchard with some very old trees. Some trees seem promising. I’ve taken graftwood and I’m waiting for DNA testing results. In the meantime, I’d like to measure the tannins. Is there an easy way for the amateur to do this, or alternatively is there a service in the UK/Ireland that could do this?

 

Thanks.

[Dave Fulton]

Not an expert on these - I suspect that you'll find the answers in Andrew Lea's excellent book (or he might be along to answer them himself - he did some of the research on the first i think?) - but a few quick answers.

Hi all,

 

I’ve a few questions which I’d appreciate any advice on.

 

1. I recall reading a French study into the effect of leaving the pulped apples ‘sit’ for 24 hours or so before pressing. Blind taste tests showed better flavours in the batches that were pressed immediately and not allowed to ‘sit’. I think it was linked to the loss of polyphenols with time. So, if I have a slow starting fermentation (typically my partially-sulphated ferments take 3 weeks + to kick off) is this analogous to allowing the pulped apples to sit before pressing and will the final cider flavour suffer as a result (when compared with a ferment that starts immediately)?

Immediately - lighter color, highest tannins

After 2 hrs - richest color, higher tannins

After 24 hrs - richest color, lower tannins

 

2. I typically ferment to dryness and then carry out a secondary fermentation in the bottle for CO2. If these bottles are then in long term storage, can a further (MLF) fermentation happen?

My understanding is that unless you've deadened the liquid (excessive SO2 at bottling, pasteurization etc) - some microflora in the cider WILL convert malic acid to lactic acid over time (to varying degrees). I'm reading F.J.Lloyds Report on the Results of Investigations into Cider Making (1893-1902) for the Bath and West and Southern Counties Society and he went to great lengths to test the impact of preservatives and also monitor secondary fermentations - in his opinion - it was only 'inferior' ciders (usually with some level of dubious preservative alteration) that didn't go through some sort of acid reduction over time. I'm sure the research has improved since then - just noting that as I was reading about his experiments with secondary fermentations just a few hours ago.

 

3. I’m going through an old (140 years) cider orchard with some very old trees. Some trees seem promising. I’ve taken graftwood and I’m waiting for DNA testing results. In the meantime, I’d like to measure the tannins. Is there an easy way for the amateur to do this, or alternatively is there a service in the UK/Ireland that could do this?

Can't help there i'm afraid. Best I know that it isn't easy to do if you are just a hobbyist like myself. Keep in mind that tannins like acids and sugars vary season to season so aren't a reliable way to confirm a cultivar - your DNA tests will be much more accurate.

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[Dave Fulton]

Missed the latter part of your first question - As the tannins are already in suspension within the liquid and are less exposed to air - I'd assume that they wouldn't decrease drastically if the fermentation takes a while. Theres some that will be lost in the fermentation itself i understand (sacrificial tannins etc).

[Andrew Lea]

To supplement the answers that Dave gave ....

1.  Maceration of pulp can enhance certain volatile flavours via oxidative processes(certainly in traditional UK and French cider apples) but as Dave says it’s also a way to reduce tannins through oxidation.  See presentations here http://www.cider.org.uk/phenolics_in_cider_apples.pdf

https://youtu.be/OezB-pubhZ4

The same does not apply to slow fermentations because the pulp and associated enzymes are long gone. (BTW it’s sulphite not sulphate). 

2. Yes MLF can happily continue in bottle unless pasteurised or sulphited post fermentation. 

3.  See here for tannin analysis methods. http://www.cider.org.uk/tanmeths.htm 

The permanganate titration is easily doable at home if you can get the reagents. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 2 Sep 2021, at 17:58, Dave Fulton <dfult...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Oliver Kierse]

Many thanks Dave and Andrew. This has clarified a few matters - just in time for this autumn’s work. 

Olly

On 2 Sep 2021, at 20:40, Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> wrote:



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